Herry's Mary Thread

[maryalene]

In answer to the original question - why pray to Mary - I can share my personal thoughts and feelings. I think others, who are much more knowledgeable than me, can discuss the scriptural basis of our prayers so I will stay out of that discussion.

Why do I pray to Mary? For two reasons - first, as a woman and a mother I can relate to Mary in a way that I don’t relate to God. Yes, I know that God knows all things, and I can go straight to him but being a finite human, sometimes God is overwhelming and distant to me. When the kids are running wild, and I don’t think I can handle changing another diaper, I want to talk/vent to another mother - someone who has been there. I realize Jesus was a much better child than mine, but I imagine that Mary probably dealt with many of same emotions and tasks that I do. Just as I sometimes cry on the shoulder of my mother here on earth, I also cry on the shoulder of my spiritual mother in heaven.

The second reason I pray to Mary is because I believe that she is probably the human closest to God in heaven. I know I can go directly to God, but sometimes, I think a person in heaven with God is going to have more pull than me. I think of it like I can go to my boss and ask for a raise. I am on good terms with my boss and she has an open door policy. However, if I want a raise, I go to my chief-of-staff and make my case to her. And then she can take my request to the boss. I might be able to get the raise either way, but I think I increase my chances if my chief-of-staff brings it up instead of me.

While I understand that these might not be good reasons to you, this is my answer to your question. Oh, and I also want to add that I very rarely pray only to Mary or another saint. Usually those prays are said in conjunction with my own prayers to God.

 

[Scout]

herry:

I really have learned alot in this forum. Its great! Im sorry I voiced my opinion. After all, this is apologetics forum

And come on now. Why would I be destroying your faith and confusing you, if the only alternative I am advocating puts greater emphasis on Christ? And singles Him alone out as our only mediator. Is this such a heresy? Scripture says “There is one God, and one mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus” 1 Tim 2:5. Not two, not 3, not as many saints as go to heaven, but only one.

–Herry

Who said I was confused? Who said you were destroying my faith? You’re not at all. I just find your motives highly suspect.

And as far as your reference to I Timothy 2:5, Paul is referring to our means of salvation. And that alone is through Christ. No one here believes Mary died for our sins.

If you believe that we shouldn’t go to anyone else except Christ, then everyone would have to lock themselves in a room, alone, for the rest of their lives. When we listen to a sermon, we are going to someone else to help us learn more about Christ instead of going straight to the Scriptures. We do this because we trust that Christ is using that person to speak to us. Every time we ask a friend for prayers we are going to someone besides Christ, but knowing that they are praying to Christ for us. It is the same when we ask for the Saints’ or Mary’s intercession. Christ uses others in our lives everyday, to bring us closer to Him. Why can’t he use His Mother and the Saints to do the same?

Scout :tiphat:

 

[mercygate]

herry:

I am afraid still no one has answered my original question. The only reason we should pray to Mary is if she loves us more than Christ, or Christ needs to **outsource His redemptoral work. **

. . . And come on now. Why would I be destroying your faith and confusing you, if the only alternative I am advocating puts greater emphasis on Christ? And singles Him alone out as our only mediator. Is this such a heresy? Scripture says “There is one God, and one mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus” 1 Tim 2:5. Not two, not 3, not as many saints as go to heaven, but only one.

–Herry

Addressing the items I have bolded in your post: I believe the difference here between your thinking and the thinking of the Church is that you seem to view Jesus’ role is exclusive.
Jesus his farewell discourse (John 13-17), shows that his will is that we all be one – he in us and we in him as he and the father are one.

For example, you ask if Mary loves us more than Christ. That is not the question. The question is, does she love us *as *Christ loves us? And the answer – for Mary and for all the Saints – is: yes! That is what “heaven” means! Therefore, we know that Mary and the saints love as Christ loves; outsourcing does not apply: if we are in Christ, then by his grace we all participate in his redemptive work. We are called to live a Christ life: to love what he loves, do what he does. Grace embraces us and renders the relationship participatory.

Nobody, but nobody puts greater emphasis on Christ than the Catholic Church. Nobody confides in him more, trusts him more, worships him more truly, or loves him more dearly than his Holy Bride. Nobody.

You seem to have picked up the either/or syndrome so often found in certain kinds of Protestantism. Either Jesus or the saints. Either Jesus or the Church.

We do not see it this way. We are in Christ and have been commissioned by him to go, to teach, and to baptize. Paul refers to filling up what is lacking in the suffering of Christ for the sake of his Church . . . The saints are in Christ. The work of the Church goes on under his grace and must continue until he comes again. Is Christ interceding for us with the Father? Then as the saints live in Christ, they, too intercede with the Father.

It’s probably a bit of a paradigm shift for you but it’s perfectly consistent with Scripture if you read Scripture with “the mind of Christ.”

 

[mercygate]

herry:

I am afraid still no one has answered my original question. The only reason we should pray to Mary is if she loves us more than Christ, or Christ needs to outsource His redemptoral work.
. . . --Herry

Come to think of it, by your usage here, even when Jesus walked among us as a man, he “outsourced” his work. Did he not send the disciples out to heal and to cast out demons? Did not his disciples baptize?

But Catholics don’t think of it as “outsourcing.” We are “the corporation.” It is called the Body of Christ and the Communion of Saints.

 

[Eliza10]

mercygate:

Nobody, but nobody puts greater emphasis on Christ than the Catholic Church. Nobody confides in him more, trusts him more, worships him more truly, or loves him more dearly than his Holy Bride. Nobody.

You seem to have picked up the either/or syndrome so often found in certain kinds of Protestantism. Either Jesus or the saints. Either Jesus or the Church.
"

Amen!

 

[FCEGM]

mercygate:

. . .For example, you ask if Mary loves us more than Christ. That is not the question. The question is, does she love us *as *Christ loves us? And the answer – for Mary and for all the Saints – is: yes! That is what “heaven” means! Therefore, we know that Mary and the saints love as Christ loves; outsourcing does not apply: if we are in Christ, then by his grace we all participate in his redemptive work. We are called to live a Christ life: to love what he loves, do what he does. Grace embraces us and renders the relationship participatory.

Nobody, but nobody puts greater emphasis on Christ than the Catholic Church. Nobody confides in him more, trusts him more, worships him more truly, or loves him more dearly than his Holy Bride. Nobody.

You seem to have picked up the either/or syndrome so often found in certain kinds of Protestantism. Either Jesus or the saints. Either Jesus or the Church.

We do not see it this way. We are in Christ and have been commissioned by him to go, to teach, and to baptize. Paul refers to filling up what is lacking in the suffering of Christ for the sake of his Church . . . The saints are in Christ. The work of the Church goes on under his grace and must continue until he comes again. Is Christ interceding for us with the Father? Then as the saints live in Christ, they, too intercede with the Father.

It’s probably a bit of a paradigm shift for you but it’s perfectly consistent with Scripture if you read Scripture with “the mind of Christ.”

Beautifully expressed, as always, Benedicite. You reminded me of St. John of the Cross’s "Prayer of a Soul Taken In Love”:

Mine are the heavens and mine is the earth. Mine are the nations, the just are mine, and mine the sinners. The angels are mine, and the Mother of God, and all things are mine; and God Himself is mine and for me, because Christ is mine and all for me.

What do you ask, then, and seek, my soul? Yours is all of this, and all is for you. Do not engage yourself in something less, nor pay heed to the crumbs which fall from your Father’s table. Go forth and exult in your Glory! Hide yourself in It and rejoice, and you will obtain the supplications of your heart.

Herry’s approach, otoh, so diminishes all that God has given us in Christ.

 

[mercygate]

FCEGM:

Beautifully expressed, as always, Benedicite. You reminded me of St. John of the Cross’s "Prayer of a Soul Taken In Love”:

Herry’s approach, otoh, so diminishes all that God has given us in Christ.

Thanks, FCGEM. BTW – user name is
“mercygate.”

 

[NotWorthy]

Herry,

Look at it this way. I’m able to attend daily Mass where I get to partake in the Body and Blood of our Lord just as St. Paul preached. I’m often able to spend another hour each week in the Adoration Chapel where I’m able to just meditate on the Lord. I also get to say a rosary once or twice a day, where I get to meditate on the mysteries of Jesus’ life, while I’m asking Mary for assistance. Are you really prepared to know what’s in my heart?

If you have a personal relationship with Jesus, I’m very happy for you. But I, in no way, am in a position to judge your faith. I’m just thankful that Jesus is loving enough to share so much of the rest of His Body with us - all the angels and the saints.

Notworthy

 

[herry]

Eireann:

And can you tell me/us what prayers we say to Mary that you have a problem with ?

And what prayers you say, and to whom ?

Dear Eireann,

It is Mary’s entire role in the Church that I do not beleive is theologically proper, taking into consideration the Old and New Testaments. It has always been about One, invisible, God, who alone is our savior. The Israelites, and early Christians prayed to no one but God. Jesus can only be our savior and mediator because He is God. He came in human flesh, suffered temptation, and now is our indespensible mediator with God in heaven. He alone can do this because he understands us, having taken on our flesh. Being God, but also man, He lived a human life, prevailing where adam failed giving us opportunity for new birth as righteous creatures reconciled to God. Mary just does not have this.

“Also, I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, whom shall I send? (to save mankind), and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me (God is speaking)” Isaiah 6:8 God himself came to save us, and be our mediator. Only God the Son, who took on the flesh, can be our mediator with God the Father.

I have a Catholic Prayer book (Called Hevenly Manna, it has Nihil Obstat, and Imprimatur by the bishop of Pittsburg, 1960) in front of me and it says this on page 316: “O mother of God, we, though unworthy, shall never cease to procalim thy might, for if thou shouldest no longer intercede for us, who would deliver us from countless misfortunes? Who would preserve us free to this day? We shall not abandon thee, O queen, for thou alone art blessed, ever savest thy servants from all calamities”

But the Bible says, “For I the Lord thy God, the Holy one of Israel (Jesus), thy savior:…I, even I, am the Lord; and besides me there is no savior” Isaiah 43:3, 11

Should we look to Mary to find Jesus? Someone said “Know Mary know Jesus, no Mary no Jesus”

“Look unto ME, and be ye saved, all ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else” Isaiah 45:22

On page 319-320 of the same book is this, “…Hasten to our prayer, hearken to our supplication, ever interceding, O mother of God, for those who honor thee. No other help, no other hope do we posess besides thee; O most pure Virgin; do thou aid us, we hope in thee, we glory in thee; we are thy servants, let us not be confounded”

Plus, there is the Cardinal who uses verses about God to preach Mary to us, “Do you ask me, is Mary willing to assist you? Does she really take an interest in your welfare? Or is she so much absorbed by the fruitation of God to be indifferent to our miseries? “Can a woman forget her infant child so as not to have compassion on the son of her womb?” Even so Mary will not forget us” p. 225

Read the rest of Isaiah 49:15, it says Yes! that the woman will forget her child, but God will not forget us.

Jesus wants us to pray to God, in His name, from our heart. Not read one that someone else wrote. He wants us to come to Him directly, knowing that Christ has reconciled us to Him, and pray to Him as our own Father.

Once again, I do not mean to be offensive. You all have been great in helping me understand how Catholics view Mary, and I respect all of you.

Peace in Christ alone,

–Herry

 

[NotWorthy]

It seems your point is that our attention to Mary draws us away from God. Instead it draws us toward God. Bishop Sheen compared Mary to the Moon, with Jesus being the Sun (the son is the sun?). All of her glory is merely a reflection of His glory. Without Him, she is nothing.

We pray to Mary to intercede for us. We do not pray to her instead of praying to God. I often ask Mary to say an Our Father with me. It seems very comforting to me to be able to ask one of the saints in heaven to join me in prayer.

Notworthy

 

[edward_george]

Herry,

I believe that greater attention should be paid to a couple of things Mary said in the New Testament. Admittedly, she doesn’t appear very much in the NT, but she said some of the most profound things in the Gospels (outside of Jesus’ own teachings).

When the angel Gabriel appeared to her and told her she would be with child, she responded with these words:

Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word

This is quite possibly the greatest act of faith in the Father ever uttered in the New Testament. If we were to follow this example every time we prayed, not asking for what we want but for what we know God needs, we would see a great difference in our spiritual lives. Mary was very young and was being asked to accept a great burden. She could have run away, or even said no. But she didn’t. She said “be it done to me according to they word” and thus brought Jesus into the world. If you understand this, it is not hard to see why we Catholics pay such respect to the Mother of Our Lord (Luke 1:43).

The second profound thing Mary said is something that we would do well to imitate.

Look to the second chapter of the Gospel According to John. It opens with the words: “And the third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee: and the mother of Jesus was there.” She is mentioned in the very beginning of the story of the wedding at Cana, so she must play some important part in it.

At the wedding feast, Mary says to her son that there is no wine. You have said that Jesus then rebukes his mother, however the commentary on this passage from the Douay-Rheims Bible says

4 “What is that to me”… These words of our Saviour, spoken to his mother, have been understood by some commentators as harsh, they not considering the next following verse: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye, which plainly shows that his mother knew of the miracle that he was to perform, and that it was at her request he wrought it; besides the manner of speaking the words as to the tone, and the countenance shown at the same time, which could only be known to those who were present, or from what had followed: for words indicating anger in one tone of voice, would be understood quite the reverse in another.

Then Mary tells the attendants at the party that ***Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.***We would do well to abide by Mary’s request here. Do whatever he tells you. Heeding these words, those at the party then saw water turned into wine. All throughout the Gospels we hear of Jesus commanding his disciples as to what they are to do. Mary’s words here are a great precedent; do whatever he tells you, and miraculous things can happen.

While Mary receives only passing mention in the Gospels, the parts she plays where mentioned is extremely important. She speaks some of the wisest words in the New Testament. She is given to us as our Mother (John 19:26-27). We would do well to heed Jesus’s command here, as John did, to behold our Mother. After all, she tells us to “do whatever he tells you.”

Very simply, Catholic devotion to Mary does not supplant Christ’s work, it only leads us to him. If we go to her as the attendants at Cana did, she will tell us the same thing time and time again: do whatever he tells you.**

-**ACEGC

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

herry:

Hi Folks,First of all, this is an apologetics forum where theological differences are dicsussed. At times we may disagree sharply, but let’s all be as friends, friends can disagree.

Of course​

My question is this: Why Pray to Mary when you can pray to Jesus?

See below. She can’t forgive sins; we cannot give her what belongs to God alone. But - if “the Assyrian is the rod of My anger” to punish the kingdom of Judah, and if the Bible comes to us by the agency of holy men rather than being a direct unmediated revelation of God - then it seems that God may work thorough Christian saints: such as Mary. IOW: God works through His creatures: to punish his people, to give His written word to His Church, to grant His graces for our salvation. And, through Mary. God is creative - He works His Will through His people as well as for them. It is by doing His Will which is done through us, that we learn to work, even as He works; Jesus did no less. So the activity of Mary to us, and ours to her, is a way in which the love of God is alive & active in His Church: “Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done” asks for this - the activity of Mary is an effect of this prayer. If we ask God for those things, He will do them: through us, or, through Mary - just as He does His Will in all His works.​

Q: Who came into the world to save sinners? Jesus or Mary?

A: Jesus

Q: Who is a sinners best friend? Jesus or Mary?
A: Jesus

Q: In the time of Jesus and Mary, who loved sinners more Jesus or Mary?
A: Jesus being God, loved them more.

Q: To whom did Jesus invite sinner’s to go for salvation, Himself or Mary?
A: Himself and only himself (John 14:6, Acts 4:12)

Q: How many examples are there in scripture of sinners, who thinking they could obtain grace more easily, went to Mary first before, or along with Jesus?
A: none

Q: Did the reprentant thief being crucified with Jesus do better to address himself to Jesus, or should he have gone first to Mary, who was at his feet?
A: The thief went directly to Jesus.## All true - so far as they go - but none of these are fatal objections. (Come to think of it, there are objections one could make to your objections, but we’ll let them rest) ##

If then Jesus loves sinners infinitly more than Mary,

Strictly speaking, infinity can’t be compared with what is finite​

never sent a sinner away (even a unclean woman who could have been punished for touching a clean person), and never sent them through an intermediary but welcomed them, when, after ascending

Small correction: “after being taken up” - not “after ascending”; she can do nothing of herself at all, any more than we can.​

to the throne of God to be our mediator, did Jesus lose any of His love, interest, or ability to give us all salvation, and all grace whatsoever we might ask? Does Jesus need help hearing all our prayers? Does Mary love us more than Christ?

It is unthinkable that the love of Mary, who is a creature, therefore limited, could even begin to love us as much as her Son and Saviour does. Mary loves us, because she is in Christ. We love her, because we are in Christ. In essence, it is as simple as that.​

[continue…]

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

…continued & ended]

Christ’s Love is (so to speak) poured forth to, and through, her. Our love of Mary, is simply a way by which Christ loves her, through us. The imperfections in that love, are ours, because anything done by God through limited, sinful human beings (which we are) will be imperfect. By loving her while in this world, we are learning to love God and our neighbour for ever in the world to come: as well as in this world. It is all but impossible not to love her, because all her loveliness, all her holiness, all her graces, all that draws our hearts to her, is nothing but the infinite wonderfulness of Christ poured out through a sinless and Christ-filled creature. She has a sort of magnetic attraction, because the One Who loves through her is attractive. Since man can be happy only in being unreservedly devoted to God, this makes perfect sense.

She is full of Christ - therefore, full of God; therefore, is very loveable: apart from the fact that she is a creature, there is nothing in her that is not altogether Divine. And because she is a creature, it is impossible to confuse her with her Creator. Everything in Mary comes from one source - the creative Love of God for her: it is because her dependence on God is limitless, that His manifestation of Himself in and through Mary is limitless. She is “filled with every grace and blessing” for the sake of our salvation, and for the Glory of Christ - not for hers. It is her absence of ego, that gives grace room to work in & through her without any restriction: she is empty of self-wardness; therefore, full of God.

So love for Mary does not take away from the unreserved devotion we owe to God - it nourishes it. We learn to love, by loving; not by theorising about love.

So in going on, and on, and on, and on about her, we are exploring her, finding out about her, coming to know her better, seeing her in sharper focus. Only God knows her as she really is - the Church on earth tries to make His appreciation of Mary her own, so that the Church may value Mary rightly too.

By honouring Mary, by “tasting and seeing” how good Mary is “in Christ”, we come to see how glorious Christ is. She exists solely to be to the praise of His glory. All creation is Christ-centred - Mary is part of creation; therefore, she exists for Christ alone.

She is not an intermediary - not if by that one is to think of her as a screen between us and Christ. Far from shutting us off from Him, she is a gap through which He comes to us. She is like a door - a door does its job of letting us go from one room to another by not being in our way. Neither is she. She is in Christ - not parallel to Him, unconnected to Him. So our access to the Father through Christ in the Spirit is unaffected. How it can dishonour her that we are “mesmerised” by her Son and Saviour ?

BTW, as Christians, we are set free in Christ to be slaves to Christ. To serve Him, is to be free indeed. And part of our freedom, is to follow the prompting of His grace poured out on us through the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit leads us to love Mary, isn’t that very Evangelical ? The Church “feels led” by the Spirit of Christ to love the holy mother of Christ for the glory of Christ Who is Holiness in person - how is that unChristian ? ##

 

[Sherlock]

herry:

It is Mary’s entire role in the Church that I do not beleive is theologically proper, taking into consideration the Old and New Testaments. It has always been about One, invisible, God, who alone is our savior. The Israelites, and early Christians prayed to no one but God. Jesus can only be our savior and mediator because He is God. He came in human flesh, suffered temptation, and now is our indespensible mediator with God in heaven. He alone can do this because he understands us, having taken on our flesh. Being God, but also man, He lived a human life, prevailing where adam failed giving us opportunity for new birth as righteous creatures reconciled to God. Mary just does not have this.

No one is suggesting that Mary is divine. However, since you mention the Old Testament, I suggest you pay attention to how the Israelites regarded the Ark of the Covenant. It was fashioned according to the instructions of God; it was venerated; considered very powerful; and it wasn’t used for hauling grain around as if it were some ordinary vessel. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. Of course she reflects the glory of God—she is nothing without Him—but reflect she does, as His most perfect creation, a fitting vessel for the New Covenant, Jesus. Look also at the role of the Queen Mother in the Old Testament. As David’s wife, Bathsheeba had to bow down like everyone else in front of the King. When she became the Queen Mother, she exercised an intercessory role, and was bowed down to.

herry:

Jesus wants us to pray to God, in His name, from our heart. Not read one that someone else wrote. He wants us to come to Him directly, knowing that Christ has reconciled us to Him, and pray to Him as our own Father.

Of course Jesus wants us to pray to God! You have adopted a very typically Protestant view of “either/or”. But that’s not how Catholics view it. I can ask others to pray for me as well as pray directly. And the intercession of the Queen Mother, as shown in the Old Testament, is powerful.

As for not reading prayers “that someone else wrote”—are we not to say the Our Father, then? Also, are you saying that one cannot read a prayer and mean it from the heart? Another case of “either/or” thinking: there is no dichotomy between spontaneous prayer and memorized prayer (such as the Our Father); both are fine, and both are to be encouraged. Frankly, the “spontaneous” prayers I’ve been exposed to often end up sounding much the same anyway—“Dear Lord, I just wanna ask you to…(fill in the blank).” Why Protestants view that as superior to a heartfelt prayer, regardless of whether it’s read or said from memory, is beyond me.

I think your problem here is that you are missing out on the familial aspect of Christianity: it’s a family affair, not a solo journey. That familial aspect should not surprise anyone, as it is an earthly reflection of the heavenly relationship of the Trinity. We are all in it together, and our Mother is on our side, ready to show off her Son like any good Jewish mother would. Her first action following the Annunciation was to take her Son to others, to her kinswoman Elizabeth. She does the same now. If you don’t want her intercession, then be all means don’t ask for her prayers. But don’t claim that doing so is in violation of Scripture.

 

[estesbob]

herry:

Dear Eireann,
I have a Catholic Prayer book (Called Hevenly Manna, it has Nihil Obstat, and Imprimatur by the bishop of Pittsburg, 1960) in front of me and it says this on page 316: “O mother of God, we, though unworthy, shall never cease to procalim thy might, for if thou shouldest no longer intercede for us, who would deliver us from countless misfortunes? Who would preserve us free to this day? We shall not abandon thee, O queen, for thou alone art blessed, ever savest thy servants from all calamities”

–Herry

What a beatiful descrition of Mary’s role. Thanks for posting it!

 

[Eireann]

herry:

Should we look to Mary to find Jesus? Someone said “Know Mary know Jesus, no Mary no Jesus”

Well God must have thought so, as He sent the Angel Gabriel to ask Her to be the dwelling place of His Son, (The Word Became Flesh)

Read the rest of Isaiah 49:15, it says Yes! that the woman will forget her child, but God will not forget us.

What woman does this refer too ? you have taken this out of context, like splicing the Bible to fit in with Mary.**Isaias 49:14 And Sion said: The Lord hath forsaken me, and the Lord hath forgotten me. 15 Can a woman forget her infant, so as not to have pity on the son of her womb? and if she should forget, yet will not I forget thee. **

Jesus wants us to pray to God, in His name, from our heart. Not read one that someone else wrote. He wants us to come to Him directly, knowing that Christ has reconciled us to Him, and pray to Him as our own Father.

Like I said at Cana, Mary said do whatever He tells you, not do as I tell you.
Why did Mary goto Jesus at Cana ? why not the Apostles ? why didn’t Jesus know there was a problem ? they ran out of wine.
Because He didn’t want to manifest Himself at that time, Mary knew Jesus better than any Apostle, or even Joseph.
There is not another person in the Bible that spent as much time with Jesus, over 30 years.
The Apostles only knew Him for a fraction of Mary’s time, they even doubted who He was thinking He was going to overthrow the Romans.
You can see this clearly when Jesus calmed the raging sea, they asked themselves who is this Man, that even the elements succumb to Him ?

**John14:9 Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? **

Once again, I do not mean to be offensive. You all have been great in helping me understand how Catholics view Mary, and I respect all of you.

You don’t offend me, but I was thinking about Jesus saying these words.
**Luke11:23 He that is not with me, is against me; and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth. ** Mary gathers, and doesn’t scatter.

Mary is not against Jesus, she was with Him the the bitter end at the foot of the cross.
Another thing you touched on was Jesus outsourcing His redemptive work.
Well He did pick 12 people to help Him, and the Father picked Mary for His redemptive plan.
Then Jesus picked Peter to carry on where He left off, but it is Christ still doing the work through humans, that is why He sent His Spirit at Pentecost.
They turned from frightened men into fearless preaches by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Mary and the Saints are like sign posts pointing us to our destination, Jesus.
We all need sign posts even in everyday life, try driving in an unfarmilar area and you see that, Mary and the Saints only ever point to Jesus.
If we look at natures beauty, the flowers, trees, the birds etc; do we take glory from God by marveling in those ?
I don’t think so, God is Glorified by His Creation, as we say, "Blessed be God in His Angel’s and His Saints.

 

[herry]

Sherlock:

No one is suggesting that Mary is divine. However, since you mention the Old Testament, I suggest you pay attention to how the Israelites regarded the Ark of the Covenant. It was fashioned according to the instructions of God; it was venerated; considered very powerful; and it wasn’t used for hauling grain around as if it were some ordinary vessel. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant.

The Ark of the covenant was a copy of the one in heaven. In the book of Hebrews, the significance of the ark of the covenant is beautifully expounded on how it relates to the new covenant and Mary is not mentioned once. The Old Ark of the covenant was built after a pattern shown to Moses. Moses was shown the ark of the covenant in heaven, and order to build a copy (Hebrews 8:5). The Ark of the covenant contained the Ten Commandments, and was placed inside the Holiest room of the temple. Once a year the priest would sprinkle blood of a lamb over the Ten Commandments (symbolizing death paying for tansgression of the law) on the Mercy seat where God’s presence rested on the day of atonement. After Jesus shed His blood for us, and was taken up into heaven, He appears before God for us, sprinkling us with His blood (testifying that He died for us) in the in the heavenly sanctuary,o f which Moses build a copy on earth. Jesus sprinkled His blood for us by shedding it here on earth, and then appearing for us in the presence of God, or that is, He justifies us with His death. (Hebrews chapter 8-10) Where does Mary fit into this? The only way I can see mary fitting into God’s plan is to give Jesus human flesh.

Of course she reflects the glory of God—she is nothing without Him—but reflect she does, as His most perfect creation, a fitting vessel for the New Covenant, Jesus. Look also at the role of the Queen Mother in the Old Testament. As David’s wife, Bathsheeba had to bow down like everyone else in front of the King. When she became the Queen Mother, she exercised an intercessory role, and was bowed down to.

Of course Jesus wants us to pray to God! You have adopted a very typically Protestant view of “either/or”. But that’s not how Catholics view it. I can ask others to pray for me as well as pray directly. And the intercession of the Queen Mother, as shown in the Old Testament, is powerful.

As for not reading prayers “that someone else wrote”—are we not to say the Our Father, then?

Jesus was giving us an example of how to pray, and all we did was repeat His example over and over again.

Also, are you saying that one cannot read a prayer and mean it from the heart? Another case of “either/or” thinking: there is no dichotomy between spontaneous prayer and memorized prayer (such as the Our Father); both are fine, and both are to be encouraged. Frankly, the “spontaneous” prayers I’ve been exposed to often end up sounding much the same anyway—“Dear Lord, I just wanna ask you to…(fill in the blank).” Why Protestants view that as superior to a heartfelt prayer, regardless of whether it’s read or said from memory, is beyond me.

I know that Catholics do indeed pray from thier heart.

I think your problem here is that you are missing out on the familial aspect of Christianity: it’s a family affair, not a solo journey.

That familial aspect should not surprise anyone, as it is an earthly reflection of the heavenly relationship of the Trinity. We are all in it together, and our Mother is on our side, ready to show off her Son like any good Jewish mother would. Her first action following the Annunciation was to take her Son to others, to her kinswoman Elizabeth. She does the same now. If you don’t want her intercession, then be all means don’t ask for her prayers. But don’t claim that doing so is in violation of Scripture.

But what if it is a violation? No one leads us to Jesus, all that would be is a broken bridge to salvation. God alone saves us, and Jesus is the only way to God. If Mary could intercede for us, why wouldn’t it be mentioned at least once in the New Testament? At the funeral sermon of John Paul II, Cardianl Ratzinnger called Mary the “salvation of the Roman People”.

So, I guess my next question will be, If I reject Mary, will I die in my sins? I ask this because i want to know what importance Catholics place on her. I have a protestant friend who is dabbling in Catholicism out of rebellion to her parents. She claims she was told by a priest that she could become Catholic without beleiveing all its doctrines (i.e. Mary as co-redentrix in particular). What do you folks think?

 

[NotWorthy]

At what point do we bring up that Mary was the*** Gebirah***, the Queen Mother, the chief intercessor, in the renewal of the Kingdom of David?

Notworthy

 

[herry]

estesbob:

What a beatiful descrition of Mary’s role. Thanks for posting it!

“O mother of God, we, though unworthy, shall never cease to procalim thy might, for if thou shouldest no longer intercede for us, who would deliver us from countless misfortunes? Who would preserve us free to this day? We shall not abandon thee, O queen, for thou alone art blessed, ever savest thy servants from all calamities”

You mean this one? Well okay then, that answers my question.

“O mother of God, we, though unworthy, shall never cease to procalim thy might”

This puts Mary in God’s place. If our conscience does not tell us that, something is seriously wrong.

“for if thou shouldest no longer intercede for us, who would deliver us from countless misfortunes? Who would preserve us free to this day?”

Whoever wrote this obviously needs to be told about Jesus, and now my work is cut out for me.

“…O queen, for thou alone art blessed…”

If they teach this in the United States, imaging what they teach in third world countries. I have a friend who is Apache Indian, He said to me (completely oblivious to Protestantism or Catholicism) that the Catholic Churches on His reservation are allowing the parishoners to mix thier tribal religions into the religious rites. Tell me, do you think an indian who can barley read is going to pick up a Bible and see that is wrong? Even my Indian friend said that this was wrong. Even so, Post Nicene Christianity did not think it was wrong. Imagine a whole Empire doing this? Latin Christianity arose out of the fall of Rome.

“In the 4th century, two movements moved over the face of Christendom…one ascetic, the other ritual and ceremonial. We are told in various ways by Eusebius, that Constantine, in order to reccomend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed to in their own. The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, oranamented on occasions with branches of trees, incense, lamps, voitive offerings onrecovery from illness, holy water, assylums…processions, blessing of the fields, sacerdotal vestments…images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by thier adoption into the Church” (Essay on the development of the Christian religion, p. 373)

“Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, do unto Jerusalem and her idols”? (Saith the Lord?) Isaiah 10:11

In the spirit of Christian love and exhortation,

–Herry

Isaiah 58:1-2

 

[mercygate]

“O mother of God, we, though unworthy, shall never cease to procalim thy might, for if thou shouldest no longer intercede for us, who would deliver us from countless misfortunes? Who would preserve us free to this day? We shall not abandon thee, O queen, for thou alone art blessed, ever savest thy servants from all calamities”

You mean this one? Well okay then, that answers my question.

“O mother of God, we, though unworthy, shall never cease to procalim thy might”

This puts Mary in God’s place. If our conscience does not tell us that, something is seriously wrong.

“for if thou shouldest no longer intercede for us, who would deliver us from countless misfortunes? Who would preserve us free to this day?”

Whoever wrote this obviously needs to be told about Jesus, and now my work is cut out for me.

“…O queen, for thou alone art blessed…”

If they teach this in the United States, imaging what they teach in third world countries. I have a friend who is Apache Indian, He said to me (completely oblivious to Protestantism or Catholicism) that the Catholic Churches on His reservation are allowing the parishoners to mix thier tribal religions into the religious rites. Tell me, do you think an indian who can barley read is going to pick up a Bible and see that is wrong? Even my Indian friend said that this was wrong. Even so, Post Nicene Christianity did not think it was wrong. Imagine a whole Empire doing this? Latin Christianity arose out of the fall of Rome.

“In the 4th century, two movements moved over the face of Christendom…one ascetic, the other ritual and ceremonial. We are told in various ways by Eusebius, that Constantine, in order to reccomend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed to in their own. The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, oranamented on occasions with branches of trees, incense, lamps, voitive offerings onrecovery from illness, holy water, assylums…processions, blessing of the fields, sacerdotal vestments…images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by thier adoption into the Church” (Essay on the development of the Christian religion, p. 373)

“Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, do unto Jerusalem and her idols”? (Saith the Lord?) Isaiah 10:11

In the spirit of Christian love and exhortation,

–Herry

Isaiah 58:1-2

Herry, you are mixing up a lot of quasi historical information filtered through an anti-Catholic lens. Oh. By the way, I completely agree with you about attempts at inculturation. While it is possible to “baptize” certain pagan customs (for example, wedding rings) some things need to be left outside the church door.

I was drawn to the Church via reading history in a secular university, a completely a-religious environment with absolutely no sympathy for the Catholic Church. Just da facts, M’am.

Clipping proof texts won’t cut it: they work in both directions.