Herry's Mary Thread

[estesbob]

“O mother of God, we, though unworthy, shall never cease to procalim thy might, for if thou shouldest no longer intercede for us, who would deliver us from countless misfortunes? Who would preserve us free to this day? We shall not abandon thee, O queen, for thou alone art blessed, ever savest thy servants from all calamities”

You mean this one? Well okay then, that answers my question.

“O mother of God, we, though unworthy, shall never cease to procalim thy might”

This puts Mary in God’s place. If our conscience does not tell us that, something is seriously wrong.

WOW you sure read a lot into a beautiful acclamation of our love for Mary!!!

We put her in the place of God becuase we proclaim her might? I guess that menas i have put Craig Biggio in the place of God also. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

You claim we worship Mary-neither the quote you posted nor any other post you have made have offered any evidence of this. In fact you can not find one Catholic or one piece of Church Doctrine that supports this.

I am wonderrng, BTW, if the hevenly Manna Prayer Book you refer to is handed out to every Seventh Day Adventist when they join up? You are about the 12th Seventh Day Adventist who has quoted this book to me. I always wonder why Seventh Day Adventist’s have such an extensive Library of Catholic books?

BTW-as long as we are looking at old books I read comments by Ellen G. White, the founder of your Church, that those who do not accept her message by October 21, 1844 are doomed to eternal hellfire. Talk about harsh!!! That seems to rule out salvation not only for all of us Catholics but for you as well!

Given the choice between Mary and Ellen I think Ill stick with Mary.

 

[estesbob]

NotWorthy:

At what point do we bring up that Mary was the*** Gebirah***, the Queen Mother, the chief intercessor, in the renewal of the Kingdom of David?

Notworthy

We should also note that Mary’s womb was the holy of holies for 9 months. The tabernacle in which the Lord dwelt. That is why she had to without sin -the Old Testmamebt makes clear the necessity of a pure , undefiled tabernacle.

 

[Sherlock]

NotWorthy:

At what point do we bring up that Mary was the*** Gebirah***, the Queen Mother, the chief intercessor, in the renewal of the Kingdom of David?

Notworthy

Well, I alluded to it in post #72, but I didn’t use the word…

 

[Eireann]

herry:

“In the 4th century, two movements moved over the face of Christendom…one ascetic, the other ritual and ceremonial. We are told in various ways by Eusebius, that Constantine, in order to reccomend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed to in their own. The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, oranamented on occasions with branches of trees, incense, lamps, voitive offerings onrecovery from illness, holy water, assylums…processions, blessing of the fields, sacerdotal vestments…images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by thier adoption into the Church” (Essay on the development of the Christian religion, p. 373)

“Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, do unto Jerusalem and her idols”? (Saith the Lord?) Isaiah 10:11

Isaiah 58:1-2

**The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, **

What about calling this Solomon’s Temple ? John 10:23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch.
Acts 3:11 And as he held Peter and John, all the people ran to them to the porch which is called Solomon’s, greatly wondering.

What is your opinion of this in **“The Acts of the Apostles ?” **

Acts 19:11** And God wrought by the hand of Paul more than common miracles. 12 So that even there were brought from his body to the sick, handkerchiefs and aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the wicked spirits went out of them. **

Seems like Sacramentals have been around for sometime, surely Paul would have rebuked them for this.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Herry,

I have seventh-day adventists family and friends, as well as many other protestant friends, and answered the same questions you have asked on many occasions. When you have the opportunity, please read through my blog on the topic, here:

Can saints hear our prayers? - View
Prayers to Mary and the saints? - View
**Doctrines about Mary are Biblical **- View

God bless,

Dave

 

[RyanL]

herry,

Hello again! Let me just second ItsJustDave’s recommendation of his blog. It’s one of the most lucid, insightful, and orthodox blogs I know. Please take a read through his articles, then ask about the things you don’t understand / agree with.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

“O mother of God, we, though unworthy, shall never cease to procalim thy might, for if thou shouldest no longer intercede for us, who would deliver us from countless misfortunes? Who would preserve us free to this day? We shall not abandon thee, O queen, for thou alone art blessed, ever savest thy servants from all calamities”

You mean this one? Well okay then, that answers my question.

“O mother of God, we, though unworthy, shall never cease to procalim thy might”

This puts Mary in God’s place. If our conscience does not tell us that, something is seriously wrong.

I had a look at this in my post - so why does it still bother you ? From Whom does Mary derive all that is in her ? God. What might has she, but His ?​

“for if thou shouldest no longer intercede for us, who would deliver us from countless misfortunes? Who would preserve us free to this day?”

Whoever wrote this obviously needs to be told about Jesus, and now my work is cut out for me.

Again, please read my post. I went into all this at boring length ​

“…O queen, for thou alone art blessed…”

If they teach this in the United States, imaging what they teach in third world countries. ## I expect they teach people the love of Mary. I hope so. God loves her & us - she loves God & us - we love her & God. What’s wrong with that ? It sounds rather Biblical to me. ##

I have a friend who is Apache Indian, He said to me (completely oblivious to Protestantism or Catholicism) that the Catholic Churches on His reservation are allowing the parishoners to mix thier tribal religions into the religious rites.## This is a delicate matter - it depends what exactly is taken into the Church’s rites. In principle, it is perfectly proper to adopt whatever can be adopted. ##

Tell me, do you think an indian who can barley read is going to pick up a Bible and see that is wrong? Even my Indian friend said that this was wrong. Even so, Post Nicene Christianity did not think it was wrong.

Maybe it was guided by the Spirit of God - why not ?​

Imagine a whole Empire doing this? Latin Christianity arose out of the fall of Rome.

…continue…]

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

…continued & ended]

“In the 4th century, two movements moved over the face of Christendom…one ascetic, the other ritual and ceremonial. We are told in various ways by Eusebius, that Constantine, in order to reccomend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed to in their own. The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, oranamented on occasions with branches of trees, incense, lamps, voitive offerings onrecovery from illness, holy water, assylums…processions, blessing of the fields, sacerdotal vestments…images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by thier adoption into the Church” (Essay on the development of the Christian religion, p. 373)## Many of them are of Jewish origin too:

• The Levitical priests wore vestments
• they served in temples
• the names of melodies are given at the beginning of certain Psalms
• places of asylum: the cities of refuge
• The Israelites & Jews asked for God’s mercy often
• branches were carried:
• Lev 23:39 "On the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the produce of the land, you shall keep the feast of the LORD seven days; on the first day shall be a solemn rest, and on the eighth day shall be a solemn rest.
• Lev 23:40 And you shall take on the first day the fruit of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and boughs of leafy trees, and willows of the brook; and you shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.
• Lev 23:41 You shall keep it as a feast to the LORD seven days in the year; it is a statute for ever throughout your generations; you shall keep it in the seventh month.
• Neh 8:13 On the second day the heads of fathers’ houses of all the people, with the priests and the Levites, came together to Ezra the scribe in order to study the words of the law.
• Neh 8:14 And they found it written in the law that the LORD had commanded by Moses that the people of Israel should dwell in booths during the feast of the seventh month,
• Neh 8:15 and that they should publish and proclaim in all their towns and in Jerusalem, “Go out to the hills and bring branches of olive, wild olive, myrtle, palm, and other leafy trees to make booths, as it is written.”

Processions:

• Jos 6:1 Now Jericho was shut up from within and from without because of the people of Israel; none went out, and none came in.
• Jos 6:2 And the LORD said to Joshua, "See, I have given into your hand Jericho, with its king and mighty men of valor.
• Jos 6:3 You shall march around the city, all the men of war going around the city once. Thus shall you do for six days.
• Jos 6:4 And seven priests shall bear seven trumpets of rams’ horns before the ark; and on the seventh day you shall march around the city seven times, the priests blowing the trumpets. ##

“Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, do unto Jerusalem and her idols”? (Saith the Lord?) Isaiah 10:11

In the spirit of Christian love and exhortation,

–Herry

Isaiah 58:1-2

 

[estesbob]

I think we have been remiss in this thread in not poining out one of the reasons we pray to Mary is that she asked us to. At Fatima she asked us to pray the Rosary daily. The angel at fatima askd us to observre the First saturday novena. dedicated to the Immacualte Heart of Mary.

At Lourdes she told us she is the Immaculate Conception,

And at Guadalupe she told us:

" Let not your heart be disturbed. Do not fear that sickness, nor any other sicknes or anguish. Am I not here, who is your mother ? Are you not under my protection ?Am I not your health ? Are you not happily within my fold ? What else do you wish ? Do not grieve nor be disturbed by anything. "

 

[hurst]

estesbob:

…
And at Guadalupe she told us:

" Let not your heart be disturbed. Do not fear that sickness, nor any other sicknes or anguish. Am I not here, who is your mother ? Are you not under my protection ?Am I not your health ? Are you not happily within my fold ? What else do you wish ? Do not grieve nor be disturbed by anything. "

Thank you for this sweet reminder from Our Mother!

hurst

 

[Zooey]

Eliza10:

My understanding is that when people used the word “women” in those days they used it as a term of great respect, unlike today. And you can be sure that Jesus said it with the highest respect!

Yup! That’s right…Saying “woman” in Jesus’ days, was like saying “ma’am” now. It is a title of the highest respect. (The British even use ‘‘ma’am’’ as a substitute for “your majesty” when addressing the queen…). Well, that word “woman” is the same thing! Jesus is saying “Yes, ma’am, what can I do for you, Mother?”
The alternative, you see, would be that Jesus broke the commandment to “honor your father & your mother”, & if Jesus did that, He was not sinless. If Jesus was not sinless, there is no sacrifice for sins. If there is no sacrifice for sins, there is no salvation for anybody…Catholic, SDA, whatever, we are all totally & utterly lost, because Jesus–having, re Herry, sinned–was :crying: not the Saviour of anybody.
And if Jesus is not the Saviour, we are all of us going to end up in hell… if you are going to :crying: take the one & only Saviour out of the running, that is our only alternative.
Fortunately, that is not the whole story. The whole story is that, at the Wedding at Cana, the Blessed Virgin Mary preached what has been called the “greatest sermon ever preached”. She said: “Do whatever He tells you”.
And Jesus, in loving obedience to His beloved mother, turned the water into wine…And, in the process, began the road that ended on a hill called Calvary. And there, at the foot of an old rugged cross, a woman stood. Mary, the Mother of Jesus stood, and as had been prophesied, a “sword …pierce[d]” Mary’s heart, as she did the only thing she could do at that fateful hour: Watch, love, & believe.
Today, she can do more. She has been re-united with her Son. She is forever in His presence…And just as when He was here, with her, when she asks Him to do something for her, He does it…So she does the one thing she can do at this hour: She prays for us, her :yup: children by adoption into the family of God.
God bless.

 

[jimmy]

hurst:

This is simply not true. Who are you praying to in the Our Father?

That is a good point, that didn’t come to mind. I should have said that every one of our prayers is to God. All prayer to God is through Christ. Every prayer that we pray to Mary is to God as well. The point of my statement was that prayers to Mary do not replace prayer to God.

hurst:

We must ask others to forgive our sins also.
We ask graces from Mary also, not just prayers.

hurst

We only ask others to forgive us our sins if our offenses are against them. Offenses against God can only be forgiven by God.

Yes, we ask graces from Mary, but these graces are obtained through her prayers. There is no other reason for Mary to pray for us other than that she can obtain us grace. Christ allows her to give us grace that we may know God, love God, hope in God, have faith in God and that we may persevere in the faith.