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sola_scriptura
Guest
didn’t it used to be that doctrine could only be formed by ecumenical council – now it can be created through papal declaration (invoking infallibility)? Didn’t this change in 1870?
Hey, is there anybody here at CAF, who believes that Jesus Christ had biological brothers and can you prove it?
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Good_Fella
Guest
There are seven papal documents that are infallible in their pronouncements, only two of which were issued after Vatican 1. The other five that were issued prior to 1870 meet the 5 criterion of the Council’s definitions and declaration. Papal infallibilty was declared a dogma in 1870, but it was still an infallible teaching of the Church before then. The dogma of the Trinity wasn’t promulgated until the late 4th century, but the Church still believed in the Trinity and taught this doctrine since earliest times.
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Good_Fella
Guest
Correction: one infallible Papal document after 1870: ‘Munificentissimus Deus’ (1950), The Assumption of Mary.There are seven papal documents that are infallible in their pronouncements, only two of which were issued after Vatican 1. The other five that were issued prior to 1870 meet the 5 criterion of the Council’s definitions and declaration. Papal infallibilty was declared a dogma in 1870, but it was still an infallible teaching of the Church before then. The dogma of the Trinity wasn’t promulgated until the late 4th century, but the Church still believed in the Trinity and taught this doctrine since earliest times.
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rinnie
Guest
First of all the CC never deemed it important to write the bible. Where you get this has to be where you are getting you other infor. who knows. Show me where the RCC deemed this.
Next if Jesus said to Saul quit persecuting my church, and we have a major problem on our hands then start taking care of it. because it the truth read it. You may have a major problem on your hands Catholics dont, we dont persecute CHrists Church we follow it.
Tell me if Jesus said why are you persecuting ME. Why did he say that, now beings that you seem to know more than the church you tell me then why did Jesus say that?
As for the Gospels you dont have all the books, alone Tradition.
Okay now here is the best thing you said yet, unreal you said You will agree that the oral reading are true but only the ones written in the bible. where is my proof that there is more.
Jn21:25 AND THERE ARE ALSO MANY OTHER THINGS WHICH JESUS DID THAT WHICH IF THEY SHOULD BE WRITTEN EVERY ONE I SUPPOSE THAT EVEN THE WORLD ITELF COULD NOT CONTAIN THE BOOKS THAT SHOULD BE WRITTEN. that in itself proves that all is not written.
Next what in the world does the Pope no getting married and devoting all of his time to Christ alone, CHANGE ONE THING THAT HE TEACHES IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Please show me, He has never changed, never will, and thats why the RCC is hated to this day. We will not give into Mans way it will stay the way God said. If we want to do things our way we can go out, get a bible, make our own Church, say that we know more than the Pope, deny that his has the Gift of the Holy Spirit, say we can do the same, turn scripture around to please us, and teach our way and find people to follow us. You see it day after day, there are hundreds of religions out there every day saying that they have the truth and the CC does not.
Next Jesus did not have to read scripture in the OT. when they were trying to teach Jesus, he not only understood, he knew more than them. He stood up and started teaching them. Dont you remember as a kid he was teaching in the temple. Please How could Jesus have to read scripture for goodness sake he was teaching it. He never needed it. He was explaining it!
You could take the bible away today, not that it is important dont get me wrong. But you could destroy every one, and you can never destroy the Church. because the Church was built Tradition. again what is Tradition, i told you. i showed you in the bible. Tradition is what has been handed down by WORD OR EPISTLE. That is what we have. OUR CHURCH, OUR PRIESTS< POPE>BISHOPS< you do not have this if you do not have the Catholic Church. You cant, these teaching are APOSTOLIC TRADITION which is handed down by word of mouth from the Apostles, from generation to generation to this day.
If you dont have the Priest, Pope, Bishops how in the world can you have the teachings, You dont. You can not have them without the Church, they are not in the bible. Why is this so hard for you to understand. The bible tells you that.
The bible isnt even a tenth of what went on. The Apostles went out and taught you know that, they made disciples, they passed on the truth. That is where the Blessed Mother comes in dont you see that. They continued to teach and tell eachother to teach us. everthing our church tells us is the truth. It comes from the same place your Bible does thier word, Tradition,
Do you believe in the Trinity, find that in the bible, where did that come from, The Catholic Church thats where, again you believe they told you the truth about that, but they are going to lie about the Blessed Mother please.
What about incarnation do you believe in that? where is it in the bible.
Look at Martin Luther, the man you follow, He WAS Catholic, he was a monk in the beginning, but he wanted to change things, and the Church wont let anyone, they cant. But who do you think his last words on his death bed were to, You need to find this out, you really do. HE LOVED THE BLESSED MOTHER AND WAS PRAYING TO HER TO HELP HIM. YEP, THE BLESSED MOTHER! Everything that you blame and accuse us of, HE DID. Well go figure!
Next if Jesus said to Saul quit persecuting my church, and we have a major problem on our hands then start taking care of it. because it the truth read it. You may have a major problem on your hands Catholics dont, we dont persecute CHrists Church we follow it.
Tell me if Jesus said why are you persecuting ME. Why did he say that, now beings that you seem to know more than the church you tell me then why did Jesus say that?
As for the Gospels you dont have all the books, alone Tradition.
Okay now here is the best thing you said yet, unreal you said You will agree that the oral reading are true but only the ones written in the bible. where is my proof that there is more.
Jn21:25 AND THERE ARE ALSO MANY OTHER THINGS WHICH JESUS DID THAT WHICH IF THEY SHOULD BE WRITTEN EVERY ONE I SUPPOSE THAT EVEN THE WORLD ITELF COULD NOT CONTAIN THE BOOKS THAT SHOULD BE WRITTEN. that in itself proves that all is not written.
Next what in the world does the Pope no getting married and devoting all of his time to Christ alone, CHANGE ONE THING THAT HE TEACHES IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Please show me, He has never changed, never will, and thats why the RCC is hated to this day. We will not give into Mans way it will stay the way God said. If we want to do things our way we can go out, get a bible, make our own Church, say that we know more than the Pope, deny that his has the Gift of the Holy Spirit, say we can do the same, turn scripture around to please us, and teach our way and find people to follow us. You see it day after day, there are hundreds of religions out there every day saying that they have the truth and the CC does not.
Next Jesus did not have to read scripture in the OT. when they were trying to teach Jesus, he not only understood, he knew more than them. He stood up and started teaching them. Dont you remember as a kid he was teaching in the temple. Please How could Jesus have to read scripture for goodness sake he was teaching it. He never needed it. He was explaining it!
You could take the bible away today, not that it is important dont get me wrong. But you could destroy every one, and you can never destroy the Church. because the Church was built Tradition. again what is Tradition, i told you. i showed you in the bible. Tradition is what has been handed down by WORD OR EPISTLE. That is what we have. OUR CHURCH, OUR PRIESTS< POPE>BISHOPS< you do not have this if you do not have the Catholic Church. You cant, these teaching are APOSTOLIC TRADITION which is handed down by word of mouth from the Apostles, from generation to generation to this day.
If you dont have the Priest, Pope, Bishops how in the world can you have the teachings, You dont. You can not have them without the Church, they are not in the bible. Why is this so hard for you to understand. The bible tells you that.
The bible isnt even a tenth of what went on. The Apostles went out and taught you know that, they made disciples, they passed on the truth. That is where the Blessed Mother comes in dont you see that. They continued to teach and tell eachother to teach us. everthing our church tells us is the truth. It comes from the same place your Bible does thier word, Tradition,
Do you believe in the Trinity, find that in the bible, where did that come from, The Catholic Church thats where, again you believe they told you the truth about that, but they are going to lie about the Blessed Mother please.
What about incarnation do you believe in that? where is it in the bible.
Look at Martin Luther, the man you follow, He WAS Catholic, he was a monk in the beginning, but he wanted to change things, and the Church wont let anyone, they cant. But who do you think his last words on his death bed were to, You need to find this out, you really do. HE LOVED THE BLESSED MOTHER AND WAS PRAYING TO HER TO HELP HIM. YEP, THE BLESSED MOTHER! Everything that you blame and accuse us of, HE DID. Well go figure!
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sola_scriptura
Guest
thanks for clarifying.There are seven papal documents that are infallible in their pronouncements, only two of which were issued after Vatican 1. The other five that were issued prior to 1870 meet the 5 criterion of the Council’s definitions and declaration. Papal infallibilty was declared a dogma in 1870, but it was still an infallible teaching of the Church before then. The dogma of the Trinity wasn’t promulgated until the late 4th century, but the Church still believed in the Trinity and taught this doctrine since earliest times.
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Jeremiah333
Guest
So before 1950 you didn’t believe in the Assumption of Mary?
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Jeremiah333
Guest
Why now, though, when earlier Popes ***were ***allowed to be married, like Peter, who you say was your first Pope?
God did not say that Pope’s couldn’t marry.
I have all the teachings I need in the Bible. I have one teacher, Jesus Christ.
Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
Matthew 23:10
I know of **no one **who follows Martin Luther. I have never known anyone in my entire life who follows Martin Luther. He was just a man. We are to follow God’s teachings (found in the Bible) not mans.
Why do Catholics tell me that they don’t pray to Mary?
I’m not trying to be flippant or anything like that, I am really trying to learn about things in the Catholic Church. That’s why I have so many questions. Thank you all for your help.
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Matariel
Guest
No, it was a widespread (though yet undefined) belief, and dates back far before then, to the origins of the Church.
Here is a link that may help:
catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp
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Matariel
Guest
It’s not a dogma, it’s purely a disciplinary rule, and could change-- it’s not a part of the infallible Magisterium of the Church. It was always understood that celibacy for the priesthood and bishops (and therefore, the Pope) is purely disciplinary. Eastern-Rite Catholic priests are allowed to be married.
No, he didn’t. If He did, it would be a part of the Magisterium; it is not.
Then why are you divided? How do you know your interpretation is correct, over against the universal teaching of the Church since the beginning?
If all you Protestants have One teacher, why are you divided? If you had one Teacher you would not be divided.
St. Paul condemns schism and divisions.
They why are you divided? You all say you follow the Bible alone (but follow man-made traditions of interpreting it (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli) when Catholics follow the Church, which is, according to St. Paul, “the pillar and foundation of truth” and which, Christ says, “the gates of hell will not prevail against” and which Christ founded on St. Peter, the first Bishop of Rome, whom has come to be called “Pope” out of fatherly respect.
It depends on your definition of “pray”. It seems most Protestants think prayer necessarily involves adoration (which is due to God alone.
In this sense, we do not pray to Mary or saints.
Here are good resources:
catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp
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KenEOTE
Guest
I have said this before in another thread, but can anyone tell me why it is so important that she did not have kids?
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guanophore
Guest
Because this is the teaching of the Apostles, and if we throw away that teaching, we can throw out everything, including the Bible, which comes from the same source. What the Apostles taught is either true or not.
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justasking4
Guest
I wouldn’t take it this far. Actually what this shows is that the claim that Catholic church makes about being incapable of erring in matters of faith and morals is not true. This is not the only doctrine and practice it has erred in but its one of the clearest. Its important that people have a clear and truthful picture of the church. Hope this helps…
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KenEOTE
Guest
My question I guess is, what would be so horrible about Mary and Joseph being normal husband and wife and having other Children after Yeshua? But on the same side what would be so wrong if they didn’t? I don’t understand I guess why this topic is such a hot bed. (no pun Intended). One side seems to be to the point in some circles to think that if Mary and Joseph did have other kids they did it in sin, and the other side seems to be saying if they didn’t have more kids they were sinning. I am trying to understand what it has to do with my eternal salvation? Will it matter when I get to Heaven? Well God ask me what side I took on this issue?
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justasking4
Guest
You bring up some excellent points. What’s interesting about this is that it does not affect the doctrine of Christ in the least. Rather it has led to the Mary of the Scriptures to be transformed into something the Scriptures never support. Its not just this doctrine but a number of others. I can sympathize with Catholics who try to defend this not on Biblical grounds (it can’t be done) but to have to defend the church in whom they have been taught that cannot err in matters of faith and morals. That is what I think is being defended primarily. No way can it ever be allowed that the church might have erred even though the evidence shows otherwise.
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Good_Fella
Guest
Of course we did. Just like we believed in the Trinity for 300 years before this doctrine was declared dogma. If we hadn’t believed in these doctrines (the Trinity and the Assumption) before they became dogma, then they wouldn’t have become dogma. May I suggest you learn what dogma means.
We have believed in the Assumption of Mary ever since the apostles found her tomb empty, according to oral Tradition.
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Good_Fella
Guest
The Perpetual Virginity of Mary is Church dogma. Publicly contesting this dogma amounts to heresy. He who rejects and denounces the teachings of the Church rejects Christ. This is the real issue some non-Catholic Christians will have to reckon with on Judgment Day.
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justasking4
Guest
This oral tradition of which you speak of went on for centuries. There are no written records from the time it would have happened. Correct?Of course we did. Just like we believed in the Trinity for 300 years before this doctrine was declared dogma. If we hadn’t believed in these doctrines (the Trinity and the Assumption) before they became dogma, then they wouldn’t have become dogma. May I suggest you learn what dogma means.
We have believed in the Assumption of Mary ever since the apostles found her tomb empty, according to oral Tradition.
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justasking4
Guest
On what grounds are you making this claim? Did Jesus ever warn anyone that if they do not believe in the perpetual virginity of His mother they would be reckoned with on Judgement day? Did the apostles teach this?The Perpetual Virginity of Mary is Church dogma. Publicly contesting this dogma amounts to heresy. He who rejects and denounces the teachings of the Church rejects Christ. This is the real issue some non-Catholic Christians will have to reckon with on Judgment Day.
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sola_scriptura
Guest
OK … I guess we’ll have to wait & see whose right huh? I’m pretty confident though.The Perpetual Virginity of Mary is Church dogma. Publicly contesting this dogma amounts to heresy. He who rejects and denounces the teachings of the Church rejects Christ. This is the real issue some non-Catholic Christians will have to reckon with on Judgment Day.
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justasking4
Guest
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