Hey, is there anybody here at CAF, who believes that Jesus Christ had biological brothers and can you prove it?

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John 7:5 is merely more evidence of my earlier point.

*Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph,[a] Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.

Jesus said to them, “Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor.” (Mark 6:3-4).*

The idea that sisters in this context means fellow Christians (in a feminine context) seems flawed.

There is a general rejection of Jesus by not only the Nazarenes but also by those within His own household – by His own family.

Jesus stated in response to their rejection that “only in his hometown, among his relatives is a prophet without honor.” This illuminates the meaning of the preceding verse (see also the parallel at Matt. 13:54-58). While obviously the statement Jesus responds to is made by one of the men in the crowd He is addressing, the sisters here are sisters in the familial context, not fellow Christians.

Indeed Roman Catholicism is the only major religion that chooses to dispute this fact. The Eastern Orthodox Catholics will at least say that Jesus had siblings – although they will say they were children of Joseph from a previous marriage (based on the account in the Proteevangelium of James).

I’m really not sure what to say of the Protoevangelium of James? I have read the document & I did see a few problems with it (just on a cursory reading). For instance it has Jesus being born in a cave rather than a manger or nativity. Moreover, it’s purported authorship has been debunked (apparently it was thought that James the Just authored the piece, however, upon further examination this has been deemed impossible). Indeed the author purports to be James of Jerusalem, which is also unlikely since the Old Testament references are take from the Septuagint and not from the Mosaic Old Testament.

Nothing besides the virgin birth of Jesus Himself is recorded by any Apostle or Apostolic Father (Ignatius, Clement, or Polycarp). I repeat the reasonings behind my disagreement with the RCC (and Eastern Orthodox) view.

I do acknowledge that these stories concerning Mary were circulating very early. However, that lends little to their veracity.
You’re going full swing in a circle stating everything you said before I replied. It seems like you haven’t even read what I wrote in response to your interpretations of Mark and John. It’s not the brothers and sisters who took offense, but the townspeople. The relatives are alluded to as the ones in Mark 3, 21 who later came to believe (Acts 1,14). The sisters are female disciples who could be related to Jesus. And what do the Protogospel, the Church Fathers, and Eastern Orthodoxy have to do with these verses. You’re stinging our eyes with your smoke screens.
 
The office of the Queen Mother is not a “nexus”. The King is the nexus. Her office derives completely from His. She has no “office” apart from Him.
I contend that the office of queen mother is a valid one as applies to Mary – however, the office is temporal (it does not extend to the idea of queen of heaven).

Jesus breaks from His family; and reveals a disengagement between His temporal family and spiritual family

*While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” (Matt. 12:45-50).*

Also:

And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come.” (John 2:4 NASB).

Many biblical versions will place a word like “dear” in front of woman to make it seem like Jesus is not rebuking His mother, since “woman” in such a context (by itself) is a Jewish idiom that might mean a rebuke or the way a man would address a subordinate female (such as a wife). It is not the way a son would address his mother.

It is here where I believe Mary’s role as queen mother (analogous to the mother of David and Solomon) is important to understand. Under the king queen dichotomy it would be appropriate for Jesus to address His mother as “woman.”

However, the disengagement I noted earlier sends another important message – these roles do not extend beyond the temporal.

Another important misconstruction IMO is the typology of Mary as Ark. This is admittedly a more ambiguous question, however, I strongly believe we can take clues from the construction of the Ark itself as a strong indication that Jesus is the only appropriate “type” for the Ark. For instance, the Ark is constructed of “acacia wood” and “gold” – wood is indicative of “humanity” while gold of “divinity.”

The Ark is the throne of God. In John’s vision it descends within the heavenly city (the New Jerusalem) at the outset of the millennial kingdom. There is no room for the idea that Mary is a “type” for this Ark.

The nexus that RCC theologians make between Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 is IMO fallacious. The vision of the Ark appearing in the temple of the Lord and the idea of a woman who is clothed with the sun and moon are distinct periods. One speaks of the coming kingdom (and the descent of the New Jerusalem) while the woman is Israel (also appropriately represented by Mary).

The distinction is drawn at Rev. 21:23. The city (the New Jerusalem) “has no need of the sun or the moon to shine on it” whereas the “woman” is illuminated by the sun (and has the moon at her feet).

Hence under this dichotomy we can take a fresh look at the protoevangelium of Genesis 3:15.

And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel."


First, this indicates war between humanity and Satan. As Matthew Henry points out:

War is proclaimed between the Seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. It is the fruit of this enmity, that there is a continual warfare between grace and corruption, in the hearts of God’s people. Satan, by their corruptions, buffets them, sifts them, and seeks to devour them. Heaven and hell can never be reconciled, nor light and darkness; no more can Satan and a sanctified soul. Also, there is a continual struggle between the wicked and the godly in this world. A gracious promise is here made of Christ, as the Deliverer of fallen man from the power of Satan. Here was the drawn of the gospel day: no sooner was the wound given, than the remedy was provided and revealed.

The woman in this context becomes representative of humanity and Israel. There is no co-role for the woman revealed here. It is very clearly stated that “He” (Christ) will bruise you on the head, and “you” (Satan) shall bruise Him on the heel (speaking of the crucifixion).

There is no need for a new Eve, because at the end all is joined. God made both man and woman in His image.

I’ve frequently hear quite a bit of confusion regarding the idea of Jesus as the last Adam. Many do not understand that it is the resurrected Christ referred to as the new (or last) Adam:

So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit (1 Cor. 15:45).

Hence we must separate the temporal role of Mary as queen mother from the post-resurrection Jesus, understand the disengagement that Jesus revealed between the temporal (including His family) and spiritual, and understand how to properly view the concept of “last Adam” – in order to properly synthesize these difficult questions.
 
You’re going full swing in a circle stating everything you said before I replied. It seems like you haven’t even read what I wrote in response to your interpretations of Mark and John. It’s not the brothers and sisters who took offense, but the townspeople. The relatives are alluded to as the ones in Mark 3, 21 who later came to believe (Acts 1,14). The sisters are female disciples who could be related to Jesus. And what do the Protogospel, the Church Fathers, and Eastern Orthodoxy have to do with these verses. You’re stinging our eyes with your smoke screens.
My response did take into account your earlier post – and I do acknowledge that it was one of the townspeople whose outcry Jesus responded to. However, it is clear from the context that these were actual sisters of Jesus.

Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.

The reference to sisters directly follows the reference to Jesus’ brothers. The context couldn’t be more clear. Indeed not only does this tell us these women were sisters – it makes the idea that these brothers of Christ (referred to here) are actually His cousins, rather absurd.

This goes far beyond honest intellectual disagreement over ambiguous text. The entire cousin theory is bizarre.

At least the Orthodox view (also held by many Roman Catholic theologians) is possible from the text – while yours doesn’t just strain the text, its recreates it, revises its plain meaning, and strips your argument of any semblance of credibility.

Your not just saying the orange might be a different shade of orange than it seems to be – you’re saying it’s an apple, when everyone knows it’s not.
 
My response did take into account your earlier post – and I do acknowledge that it was one of the townspeople whose outcry Jesus responded to. However, it is clear from the context that these were actual sisters of Jesus.

Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.

The reference to sisters directly follows the reference to Jesus’ brothers. The context couldn’t be more clear. Indeed not only does this tell us these women were sisters – it makes the idea that these brothers of Christ (referred to here) are actually His cousins, rather absurd.

This goes far beyond honest intellectual disagreement over ambiguous text. The entire cousin theory is bizarre.

At least the Orthodox view (also held by many Roman Catholic theologians) is possible from the text – while yours doesn’t just strain the text, its recreates it, revises its plain meaning, and strips your argument of any semblance of credibility.

Your not just saying the orange might be a different shade of orange than it seems to be – you’re saying it’s an apple, when everyone knows it’s not.
I am curious what you make of this post from another thread on this same topic:
Randy_Carson said:
Let me take a crack at this…

Brothers of Jesus, Not Sons of Mary

Many non-Catholics deny the Perpetual Virginity of Mary by referring to passages of scripture that mention the “brothers” of Jesus. A rigorous analysis of scripture, however, proves their position is false. Consider the following:

1. Jesus had a “brother” named James.

"Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?”(Matthew 13:55)
2. James, the Lord’s “brother”, is an apostle.

“Then, after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. (Galatians 1:18-19)

3. There are two apostles named James.

“When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.”(Luke 6:13-16)
4. One James (the brother of John) is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Zebedee.

James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder)” (Mark 3:17)
5
**. The other apostle named James is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Alpheus.**

“And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he called apostles: Simon, whom he named Peter and Andrew his brother, and James and John and Philip and Bartholomew, and Matthew and James the son of Alpheus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, and Judas the son of James and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.” (Luke 6:13-16)

6. Therefore, neither apostle named James was a uterine brother of Jesus.

7. The man named Joseph (or Joses) is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his mother is Mary and his brother is James. Therefore, this Mary is the wife of Alphaeus.


“Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.” (Matthew 27:55-56)

8. Judas is not a uterine brother of Jesus because he is the son of James.

“When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James.” (Acts 1:13)

**9. While Matthew 15:35 declares James, Joseph and Judas to be the “brothers” of Jesus, it has been demonstrated from scripture that they are NOT uterine brothers of the Lord. From this, it is apparent that scripture must be using the term “brothers” to mean relatives other than sons of Mary.

**
 
I am curious what you make of this post from another thread on this same topic:
I discussed these references in depth throughout this thread.

The contention is that there could not have been three men named James since only two of the twelve Apostles were named James. However, the James who is referred to as the “brother” of Jesus was clearly not one of the original twelve Apostles.

Indeed this James (the brother of Jesus) did not believe in our Lord initially, as the rest of His family didn’t (save His mother and Joseph).

The revelations of the unbelief of His own family are important – because they turn us back to the story of David & the rejection he experienced from his own brothers (in the case of David they were clearly uterine brothers).

Moreover, the disengagement between the temporal and spiritual is also part of this story. Prior to His death and resurrection no one properly understood Jesus when He made constant references to His impending death and resurrection (not even His Apostles or mother understood this until He was actually raised up).

Upon His resurrection even the rest of His family (including His brother James) came to believe. However, no longer was the family of Christ limited to His temporal family. Now we’re all the siblings of Christ.

This is the proper way to understand this.
 
I discussed these references in depth throughout this thread.

The contention is that there could not have been three men named James since only two of the twelve Apostles were named James.
I agree, there can easily be another James.
However, the James who is referred to as the “brother” of Jesus was clearly not one of the original twelve Apostles.
Two questions. Do you think the “James” referred to in Matt. as the brother of Joses is the same “James” mentioned in Galatians?

How do you suppose those in the post apostolic era, who knew these people personally, got their family attachments wrong?
Indeed this James (the brother of Jesus) did not believe in our Lord initially, as the rest of His family didn’t (save His mother and Joseph).
Sure would be nice to have a geneaology!
The revelations of the unbelief of His own family are important – because they turn us back to the story of David & the rejection he experienced from his own brothers (in the case of David they were clearly uterine brothers).
Yes I have no doubt that this is what was on Jesus’ mind when He made the statment about prophets being without honor at home.
Moreover, the disengagement between the temporal and spiritual is also part of this story. Prior to His death and resurrection no one properly understood Jesus when He made constant references to His impending death and resurrection (not even His Apostles or mother understood this until He was actually raised up).
I think His mother did. I think that is why she did not go to the tomb. He has already appeared to her, or she knew He would not be there.
Upon His resurrection even the rest of His family (including His brother James) came to believe. However, no longer was the family of Christ limited to His temporal family. Now we’re all the siblings of Christ.
Praise God! 👍
This is the proper way to understand this.
Ok. We see it differently. 😉
 
Sola -scriptura, why would me saying that Mary was righteous because she was given the Grace of God be poor theology. And why would be showing you how God listens to the prayers of the righteous be poor theology. And where in the bible does it say that we cant help pray each other into heaven. I was only showing you how God used Job to prove this. And as far as grace it is never given to us on our merits. Grace is given freely by God. And why would Mary be given Grace from God if she was full of sins? Mary never questioned God, she never did anything but give up her own self, and her own soul to God, simply by her trust in him. All she was her whole life was a true example of what perfect faith and trust in God was. So how could her prayers not help us get into heaven. I dont understand your reasoning on this? And how can intercessory prayer not work when God told Jobs friends to have job pray for them. Why would God say that then. If there is one way to have God hear our prayers, by saying them ourself, why are we told to pray for eachother. Why did Jesus say to Peter i prayed for you.
 
Sola -scriptura, why would me saying that Mary was righteous because she was given the Grace of God be poor theology. And why would be showing you how God listens to the prayers of the righteous be poor theology. And where in the bible does it say that we cant help pray each other into heaven. I was only showing you how God used Job to prove this. And as far as grace it is never given to us on our merits. Grace is given freely by God. And why would Mary be given Grace from God if she was full of sins? Mary never questioned God, she never did anything but give up her own self, and her own soul to God, simply by her trust in him. All she was her whole life was a true example of what perfect faith and trust in God was. So how could her prayers not help us get into heaven. I dont understand your reasoning on this? And how can intercessory prayer not work when God told Jobs friends to have job pray for them. Why would God say that then. If there is one way to have God hear our prayers, by saying them ourself, why are we told to pray for eachother. Why did Jesus say to Peter i prayed for you.
I didn’t express disagreement with the broader point you bring up here – that we may validly pray for each other?

I merely distinguish this from the idea of seeking heavenly intercession from sources other than our Savior.

Blessings
 
I didn’t express disagreement with the broader point you bring up here – that we may validly pray for each other?

I merely distinguish this from the idea of seeking heavenly intercession from sources other than our Savior.

Blessings
Huh? Are you saying that we aren’t supposed to ask them to pray for us? If I remember right, the early Christians did. This in no way denies that Christ is our only unique Mediator and Advocate. The Saints aren’t in competition with Christ!
 
I didn’t express disagreement with the broader point you bring up here – that we may validly pray for each other?

I merely distinguish this from the idea of seeking heavenly intercession from sources other than our Savior.

Blessings
Ok. and please no disrespect, but I cant understand what would be the difference. Because when we pray for eachother are we not seeking heavenly intercession from our Savior, but just asking for someone else to ask for us also. Let me explain when I go to the Blessed Mother and ask her to pray for me, she is praying for me to Jesus. What is wrong with that, See she is not fixing my problem, she is asking Jesus to help me fix it also. So whats the difference of asking her to do it or you. Its still heavenly intercession isnt it. Or okay lets go this route what do you call it when you ask Jesus to help someone. Not yourself?
 
I agree, there can easily be another James.
👍
Two questions. Do you think the “James” referred to in Matt. as the brother of Joses is the same “James” mentioned in Galatians?
most likely yes
How do you suppose those in the post apostolic era, who knew these people personally, got their family attachments wrong?
here’s where we might disagree. From all the evidence that exists it seems those who did know James (for instance Paul) did believe he was the brother of Jesus.

Ignatius, Polycarp, or Clement (who were actually the disciples of the Apostles) never refuted this idea.

It wasn’t until later that we see Mariology developing (namely under Irenaeus, and to a lesser extent Origen).

Ireneaus was from Polycarps hometown – however, there is no evidence that Polycarp ever developed a Mariology akin to the Catholic view (indeed his own epistle to the Philippians is silent on the issue & to my knowledge Irenaeus never claimed his views on Mary were drawn from Polycarp).

So Mariology was not an Apostolic development in my view – rather it developed after the Apostolic age & it developed slowly. The words of Ignatius are often used in support of perpetual virginity (from his epistle to the Ephesians); indeed even Origen uses those words in support of the doctrine. However, the words of Ignatius only speak to the virgin birth & in no way infer perpetual virginity. Indeed none of these early church fathers (namely Origen or Ireneaus) claim actual knowledge – rather they infer perpetual virginity from non-apostolic sources (there were in fact many competing ideas circulating in this early period about Mary – for instance Tertullian did not believe Mary was a perpetual virgin & agreed that Jesus had siblings).

None of this is decisive proof & I agree that Tertullian did ultimately become a heretic (because he became a Montanist).

Moreover, it is perfectly possible that Joseph did bring children into the marriage (notwithstanding that the Protoevangelium of James is probably a forgery – it may still present some degree of truth). However, the cousin theory, Mary as a New Eve, queen of heaven, Mary as the Ark, co-redeemer or mediatrix of all graces, spouse of the Holy Spirit, and other developments IMO are erroneous (especially the cousin theory). Even the early reformers maintained a belief in perpetual virginity (although that in itself holds little value to me – they simply didn’t explore Marian theology to any great extent & thus only objected to the idea of veneration because of its tension with the idea that Jesus is our “one mediator”).
Sure would be nice to have a geneaology!
Indeed
Yes I have no doubt that this is what was on Jesus’ mind when He made the statment about prophets being without honor at home.
👍
I think His mother did. I think that is why she did not go to the tomb. He has already appeared to her, or she knew He would not be there.
I don’t think there’s any evidence supporting this view?
Ok. We see it differently. 😉
I will simply say that I have less of a problem with the Eastern view – since the EOC has not gone as far as to make doctrines like the immaculate conception official dogma (to my knowledge anyway).

However, I also think the source of EOC Mariology (the Nativity of Mary) has many problems, namely its assertion that Mary served as a Temple Virgin (when no such practice existed in Second Temple Judaism – at least as far as most commentators on this question believe).

Again – the Eastern Church has stayed away from creation of dogmatic official doctrine in this regard, accept to acknowledge Mary as “The Theotokos” (which most Protestant reformers didn’t object to) & ever virgin. The EOC will not say Mary was necessarily born free from sin – but they will say she never sinned (in other words under the EOC matrix she was born with original sin but never actually sinned). The EOC has also not adopted a doctrine concerning the assumption of Mary.

The EOC disagreements with reformed protestants generally circle around different issues – namely a rejection of Calvinist theology (which flows from Augustine). Calvin’s theology really does permeate in protestantism (for instance the Westminster Confession, which is very Calvinist in nature, was at one point the overriding view of the Church of England).

Ironically the EOC probably does have a great deal in common with the Methodist church (with regard to soteriology) – interestingly at one point the American Methodist church actually saved the Russian Orthodox church from near extinction (an interesting little factoid). Indeed the only actual bishop whom we know was consecrated by Peter was Ignatius of Antioch (although at this point there are I think five churches who claim succession from Peter via Ignatius – so it’s hard to discern the continuum from Peter)?

I think if there is ever a reunion between Catholics and Protestants it will be with Orthodox Catholics – not Rome. I think at this point the Eastern Church isn’t all that interested in exploring such a communion because they don’t want to upset Rome – but who knows what the future will bring? I find it interesting that you guys don’t even have any dogma concerning purgatory – and believe there are many mysteries that will not be revealed until end times. Overall, I have little problem with the Orthodox Catholic Church. I might disagree a bit with you guys concerning some questions of nuance (on more complex issues like soteriology) – but I view none of those things as critical (accept to say predestination & perseverance of the saints are very important doctrines in my opinion).

Blessings
 
Ok. and please no disrespect, but I cant understand what would be the difference. Because when we pray for eachother are we not seeking heavenly intercession from our Savior, but just asking for someone else to ask for us also. Let me explain when I go to the Blessed Mother and ask her to pray for me, she is praying for me to Jesus. What is wrong with that, See she is not fixing my problem, she is asking Jesus to help me fix it also. So whats the difference of asking her to do it or you. Its still heavenly intercession isnt it. Or okay lets go this route what do you call it when you ask Jesus to help someone. Not yourself?
I do not per se view intercessory prayer as tantamount to heresy or anything like that. However, I do think Jesus makes clear that there is a distinction between heavenly intercession and the living praying for the living – this is really all I’m saying? However, I respect differences in opinion regarding this matter; so please don’t think I’m chastising your deeply held views.

🙂
 
Huh? Are you saying that we aren’t supposed to ask them to pray for us? If I remember right, the early Christians did.
You remember … man you must be old (sorry Matariel I couldn’t resist 🙂 ).
This in no way denies that Christ is our only unique Mediator and Advocate. The Saints aren’t in competition with Christ!
I understand Catholics do not think they’re replacing Jesus in anyway & I know intercession is not worship. As I said above – I simply note that Jesus seems to delineate between heavenly intercession & the living praying for the living.
 
I do not per se view intercessory prayer as tantamount to heresy or anything like that. However, I do think Jesus makes clear that there is a distinction between heavenly intercession and the living praying for the living – this is really all I’m saying? However, I respect differences in opinion regarding this matter; so please don’t think I’m chastising your deeply held views.

🙂
Oh please none taken, But im just trying to see this through your eyes to see where you are comming from is all. Now where do you see, if you dont mind me asking where Jesus makes that clear distinction. See to me, rather I ask you to pray for me, The Blessed Mother or even my Dad now that he is on the other side, I still see them as living prayers. See I don’t see death, I believe they are as alive as you and I. Its just the Spirit has separated from the body, but when we pray we pray from our soul anyway, so i see no difference.
 
Oh please none taken, But im just trying to see this through your eyes to see where you are comming from is all. Now where do you see, if you dont mind me asking where Jesus makes that clear distinction. See to me, rather I ask you to pray for me, The Blessed Mother or even my Dad now that he is on the other side, I still see them as living prayers. See I don’t see death, I believe they are as alive as you and I. Its just the Spirit has separated from the body, but when we pray we pray from our soul anyway, so i see no difference.
*For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Tim. 2:5).

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this (1 John 5:16).

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will (Romans 8:27).

And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints (Ephesians 6:18)* – here Paul exhorts the faithful to pray for the living saints; and to pray for them not too them.

So with regard to intercession – only the Holy Spirit and Jesus can make intercession on our behalf. As far as asking the Saints to pray for us – we are told that we are to ask Christ directly to intercede on our behalf, since He is our one mediator; so this would seem to abrogate the idea of intercession? This is my opinion anyway.

Blessings
 
*For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Tim. 2:5).

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this (1 John 5:16).

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will (Romans 8:27).

And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints (Ephesians 6:18)* – here Paul exhorts the faithful to pray for the living saints; and to pray for them not too them.

So with regard to intercession – only the Holy Spirit and Jesus can make intercession on our behalf. As far as asking the Saints to pray for us – we are told that we are to ask Christ directly to intercede on our behalf, since He is our one mediator; so this would seem to abrogate the idea of intercession? This is my opinion anyway.

Blessings
If you dont mind i thing you are getting a mediator and intercessor confused, to be a mediator is to settle something, to be an intercessor is to pray on behalf of someone. When we have intercession we are asking someone to pray for us. not settle what needs fixed see what i mean.

And I do agree we are asked to pray for all the angels and saints to do Gods work. But isnt that intercession that God is asking us to do?
 
*For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Tim. 2:5).

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this (1 John 5:16).

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will (Romans 8:27).

And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints (Ephesians 6:18)* – here Paul exhorts the faithful to pray for the living saints; and to pray for them not too them.

So with regard to intercession – only the Holy Spirit and Jesus can make intercession on our behalf. As far as asking the Saints to pray for us – we are told that we are to ask Christ directly to intercede on our behalf, since He is our one mediator; so this would seem to abrogate the idea of intercession? This is my opinion anyway.

Blessings
And i do agree that the Spirit intercedes for the saints (the spirit prays for the saints) yes i do agree with that also. that the saints do Gods will. That is why I believe they do because the Spirit prays for them.

And i do agree that if we confess our sins, and we are truely sorry God will forgive us, again I agree with you, but again we confess our sins to a Priest which is what we are taught to do, and he through the Holy Spirt which we believe was given through Holy Orders can interceede for us. (which again is also go with us to God and ask for forgiveness) Which we could say the Priest is righteous because he has the power of the Holy Spirit to do this.

And Again I do agree if we see our brother commiting a sin we can and should go to God and through intercession (pray for our brother and ask God to help him and forgive him.

I agree with all of the scripture, But i cant see where this is God saying dont interceed. I see the opposite.
 
But where I also dont agree I dont agree that only God and the Holy Spirit can pray for us, dont get me wrong they can, and I pray they do, but I was taught we should also pray for ourself and our family. I was never taught that only God and the Holy Spirit can pray for us. I was taught we should all pray for eachother. Especially is someone is in trouble, or their soul is in danger.
 
But where I also dont agree I dont agree that only God and the Holy Spirit can pray for us, dont get me wrong they can, and I pray they do, but I was taught we should also pray for ourself and our family. I was never taught that only God and the Holy Spirit can pray for us. I was taught we should all pray for eachother. Especially is someone is in trouble, or their soul is in danger.
You’re misunderstanding me – of course we can pray for our family, friends, and anyone else for that matter (I do all the time). Indeed God asks us to pray for everyone – so that all will come to know Him. What I mean by mediation is Christ is our advocate before God & none other. However, we can pray for others, not only ourselves (in fact God smiles at us when we unselfishly pray for others). 🙂

I never meant to imply otherwise?
 
And i do agree that the Spirit intercedes for the saints (the spirit prays for the saints) yes i do agree with that also. that the saints do Gods will. That is why I believe they do because the Spirit prays for them.

And i do agree that if we confess our sins, and we are truely sorry God will forgive us, again I agree with you, but again we confess our sins to a Priest which is what we are taught to do, and he through the Holy Spirt which we believe was given through Holy Orders can interceede for us. (which again is also go with us to God and ask for forgiveness) Which we could say the Priest is righteous because he has the power of the Holy Spirit to do this.

And Again I do agree if we see our brother commiting a sin we can and should go to God and through intercession (pray for our brother and ask God to help him and forgive him.

I agree with all of the scripture, But i cant see where this is God saying dont interceed. I see the opposite.
I see nothing wrong with confessing to a priest, however, this isn’t what I was aiming at (btw we can also confess directly to Christ ourselves, or ask a lay person to pray for us as well – which is really all that Scripture enumerates; I see no exclusive role for a priest or pastor in this regard – I view a minister of God’s word as a teacher & leader of a congregation; but not necessarily a person whom we’re required to go to for confession – but of course I’m protestant & we would say Catholic confession is fine, but the Holy Spirit no more empowers a priest to hear a confession than He empowers you or I to hear the confession of a brother & none of this is particularly more efficacious than simply praying to Christ for forgiveness ourselves).
 
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