High-ranking US Jesuit: Married priests would be healthy for the Church

[Wesrock]

I think a celibate priesthood is a great discipline. I am not opposed to a married diocesan priesthood if the situation warrants it. I trust in the judgment of the Church to make the best decision for our time and place.

 

[hwriggles4]

Gentlemen:

One thing this article does not highlight is that if a married man is ordained a Catholic priest, he must be married prior to ordination, not after ordination. This excludes former Catholic priests who left the priesthood to marry. The article also does not say that should the wife pass away, the priest cannot re-marry (same holds true for permanent deacons).

Fr. Scott Caton was a special case. I mention him because his picture is at the front page of this article. He actually was a Baptist minister who became Catholic. I know he spent some time studying in Catholic seminary (no, not a crash course) before he was ordained. I don’t know him, but I do know he has a teaching job somewhere in upstate New York (Diocese of Rochester) and he celebrates Mass at a parish regularly. I bring this up because too many people (even some Catholics) think when a former Protestant minister applies under the Pastoral Provision, he is readily accepted and the following week he is saying Catholic Mass. Yes, MSNBC, the Huffington Post, and the local papers need to tell the REAL story, that the Pastoral Provision is not a magic trick.

I know a former Lutheran pastor who is now Catholic (he was ordained about 10 years ago) and his bishop sent him through a few years of major seminary prior to ordination as a Catholic priest. He also serves in the Army as a Catholic chaplain, having been a prior enlisted sergeant before going into ministry.

I didn’t realize that Pope Francis lifted the restriction on the Eastern Rite. I knew they could marry in Europe. Years ago, I met a Byzantine Rite priest and the way he discussed it to us was the Byzantine clergy in the United States chose to remain celibate. There were also two former Episcopal priests in Texas (who later became Catholic priests under the Pastoral Provision) who chose to remain celibate, in part to serve their congregations.

I know a Catholic priest who told us that he had a seminarian classmate from one of the other Rites, and he told me one thing that his classmate had a hard time doing was scheduling his wedding at least a few days before his ordination. His fiancee even got involved with their bishop in order to schedule their wedding. Can you see how hard that would be for diocesan bishops and religious superiors to deal with? That would create mounds of paperwork, several headaches, long hours of discussion, etc. Doesn’t our clergy have enough to do already?

By the way, I agree with how the poster Gorgas presented the argument about permanent deacons going on to the priesthood. While I do personally know one priest in my diocese who did this (and he is a good priest, a widower who was ordained at 64, and had been a permanent deacon for several years), many Catholics are confused on what the vocation is of a permanent deacon versus a Catholic priest.

The married priests that I do know (there is one at my parish - we have three priests) are doing a good job - not “half a job”. I respect married priests, and quite a few will say that is a difficult task balancing two vocations - marriage and priesthood.

 

[commenter]

Just a note on the source:

“Crux” is not connected to the Catholic Church in any way. It is part of the Boston Globe, which is bitterly anti-Catholic. The writer is opposed to the Catholic faith on same sex marriage and abortion.

I realize there are good arguments on both sides of this celibacy issue.

But we have to keep “outing” questionable sources, that falsely present as Catholic when they are not.

 

[Romans615]

OK, not trying to argue, but to give my take on this: I’m studying both Catholicism and Orthodoxy. So, granted, my perspective on this issue isn’t formed by experience as a Catholic Christian or an Orthodox Christian, but I do think the Orthodox position makes more sense because in Orthodoxy, both celibate and married men are legitimate candidates for entrantce to the priesthood. Both celibate and married priests can be wonderful examples of Christ’s love, and from what I’ve seen, God gives grace to those who choose the Priesthood to handle what life brings. I imagine it is a great comfort to a married priest to have a believing wife, and a lot of Orthodox Priests have large families, yet another witness.

From what I’ve seen, God blesses both celibate and married Priests in their vocations.

 

[utah_rose]

Thanks, _Abyssinia. That was a good idea about changing the thread title.

Considering the miracle this change would take, I’m very happy with the idea even being talked about.

Only thing wrong with this idea is there’d be a conflict between his family and his priestly duties. Also, priests get reassigned, problems there for families. And salaries would have to be raised. However, I’ve read if it does happen it could begin with older deacons with grown children, and this would be fine.

 

[thejeopardyfan]

Only thing wrong with this idea is there’d be a conflict between his family and his priestly duties. Also, priests get reassigned, problems there for families. And salaries would have to be raised.

Yes, there are some kinks to work out. I assume married priests would not be reassigned.

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

Only thing wrong with this idea is there’d be a conflict between his family and his priestly duties. Also, priests get reassigned, problems there for families. And salaries would have to be raised. However, I’ve read if it does happen it could begin with older deacons with grown children, and this would be fine.

Sure, but even that begins to move the goalposts due to unforseen concerns. I agree this is rife with issues.

Again, if a married man with children enrolled in private school who lives in LA County, CA or Montgomery County, MD desires to enter seminary, how is the Church going to pay a living wage to these men, as they have also recently advocated? These men often make upwards of $300k to support their families in many areas.

We have considered a private Catholic School at which tuition for K-8 was $12k+ a year. Very expensive (but exceptional school). Who is paying for that if a breadwinner becomes a Priest? It isn’t a parish school.

I would also question why would the Church be doing it?

Inertia preculdes doing something just for the sake of doing it. The status quo remains so until there is a reason for changing it.

Such reason could include hard evidence that large numbers of potential Priests are leaving seminary because they want to marry. Shouldn’t that bit of evidence be a starting point rather than statements like “I just think that with the Priest shoratges, allowing married men to become Priests would help.” That is hardly proof of anything.

 

[Romans615]

Only thing wrong with this idea is there’d be a conflict between his family and his priestly duties. Also, priests get reassigned, problems there for families. And salaries would have to be raised. However, I’ve read if it does happen it could begin with older deacons with grown children, and this would be fine.

I’m not trying to be a wise guy, but don’t see any Eastern Orthodox Priests complaining.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I am ok with allowing married priests. But I would also like to have celibate priests. There must be a way to say that both can come in to the Church. We do already have Anglican priests that are married, etc. I can’t see any harm in it. But I would hate to see married clergy override the celibacy tradition - get to the point where all priests were married. It is a great thing for someone to devote their life to Christ and take the vow of celibacy in religious life - I understand that very well, a great tradition we must protect.

 

[jilly4ski]

I’m not trying to be a wise guy, but don’t see any Eastern Orthodox Priests complaining.

Well that could be because of vastly different circumstances. At least in the dispora, parishes tend to be very small, you don’t find large mega parishes the you do for the Latin Church. Even the Russian Orthodox Cathedral near me had as many people attend Divine Liturgy as my midsize suburban parish. Also more prestigious and busier assignment would probably be given to the priest monks (aka celibate priests).

I am ok with allowing married priests. But I would also like to have celibate priests. There must be a way to say that both can come in to the Church. We do already have Anglican priests that are married, etc. I can’t see any harm in it. But I would hate to see married clergy override the celibacy tradition - get to the point where all priests were married. It is a great thing for someone to devote their life to Christ and take the vow of celibacy in religious life - I understand that very well, a great tradition we must protect.

We would also have some male religious that would be ordained, but the religious orders are struggling right now. Also, that would not preserve celibacy on the diocesan level. Without a stronger culture around celibacy and monasticism, I think altering the current celibacy rules is not a great idea.

 

[Midwest88]

Question: If Catholic priests are allowed to marry how is the Church going offer a salary that will support a family, say, presuming the priest and his wife have more than three children?

I’d say no to married priests. Protestant we ain’t. If modernism has taught me anything is that once it gets a foothold it’ll want more. A strong push for female priests will be next.

ADD: I want to add that priests are “married.” They’re “married” to the Church.

 

[Midwest88]

Sure, but even that begins to move the goalposts due to unforseen concerns. I agree this is rife with issues.

Again, if a married man with children enrolled in private school who lives in LA County, CA or Montgomery County, MD desires to enter seminary, how is the Church going to pay a living wage to these men, as they have also recently advocated? These men often make upwards of $300k to support their families in many areas.

We have considered a private Catholic School at which tuition for K-8 was $12k+ a year. Very expensive (but exceptional school). Who is paying for that if a breadwinner becomes a Priest? It isn’t a parish school.

I would also question why would the Church be doing it?

Inertia preculdes doing something just for the sake of doing it. The status quo remains so until there is a reason for changing it.

Such reason could include hard evidence that large numbers of potential Priests are leaving seminary because they want to marry. Shouldn’t that bit of evidence be a starting point rather than statements like “I just think that with the Priest shoratges, allowing married men to become Priests would help.” That is hardly proof of anything.

The realm of finance and economics is not strong with many CAFs.

“I don’t know how it’ll be structured! You figure it out!”

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

Question: If Catholic priests are allowed to marry how is the Church going offer a salary that will support a family, say, presuming the priest and his wife have more than three children?

I’d say no to married priests. Protestant we ain’t. If modernism has taught me anything is that once it gets a foothold it’ll want more. A strong push for female priests will be next.

ADD: I want to add that priests are “married.” They’re “married” to the Church.

I’ve never liked the “married to the Church” analogy concerning the priesthood. Priests receive a salary, have days off, and retire. None of those things are true of marriage. I also fail to see the allegedly necessary connection between ordaining married men and ordaining women. And our Eastern and Orthodox married priest brothers would be surprised that you think they’re “Protestant.”

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

I’ve never liked the “married to the Church” analogy concerning the priesthood. Priests receive a salary, have days off, and retire. None of those things are true of marriage. I also fail to see the allegedly necessary connection between ordaining married men and ordaining women. And our Eastern and Orthodox married priest brothers would be surprised that you think they’re “Protestant.”

That doesn’t really address the notion of a married Priest who may have a large family (with associated costs) balanced against the Church’s desire (in some quarters) for a living wage. That living wage is going to be cost-prohibitive in almost every case where children, education, or special medical cicumstances are involved, to say nothing of basic cost of living issues like property value-driven mortgages in many areas.

I am not saying it isn or it isn’t a good idea (though I have yet to hear evidence why it needs to be done), but I don’t think anyone in favor of it was worked out any realistic logistics for how it could happen in many cases. Without those, how can anyone support it?

 

[FollowChrist34]

That doesn’t really address the notion of a married Priest who may have a large family (with associated costs) balanced against the Church’s desire (in some quarters) for a living wage. That living wage is going to be cost-prohibitive in almost every case where children, education, or special medical cicumstances are involved, to say nothing of basic cost of living issues like property value-driven mortgages in many areas.

I am not saying it isn or it isn’t a good idea (though I have yet to hear evidence why it needs to be done), but I don’t think anyone in favor of it was worked out any realistic logistics for how it could happen in many cases. Without those, how can anyone support it?

Is this what we say to low income parents of six or seven when the wife becomes pregnant? Whatever happened to where there is a will there is a way? God’s will be done? All that? Why can’t a married priest muddle through poverty just like the rest of us?

I agree more married clergy won’t do much to solve the priest shortage problem. The Orthodox and Protestants likewise have declining numbers of clergymen. I just really don’t mind the idea. There were married clergy in the New Testament. I don’t think it is unhealthy for the Church culture. Again, I would like to see both - I don’t like the way Protestantism got to the point where a clergyman basically HAD to marry. That is silly.

 

[GEddie]

Is this what we say to low income parents of six or seven when the wife becomes pregnant? Whatever happened to where there is a will there is a way? God’s will be done? All that? Why can’t a married priest muddle through poverty just like the rest of us?

I agree more married clergy won’t do much to solve the priest shortage problem. The Orthodox and Protestants likewise have declining numbers of clergymen. I just really don’t mind the idea. There were married clergy in the New Testament. I don’t think it is unhealthy for the Church culture. Again, I would like to see both - I don’t like the way Protestantism got to the point where a clergyman basically HAD to marry. That is silly.

I don’t think change for the sake of change should be the goal. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it, especially when what seems broke is only the discomfort of the sexual-revolution’s progeny.

IMNAAHO

ICXC NIKA

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

Is this what we say to low income parents of six or seven when the wife becomes pregnant? Whatever happened to where there is a will there is a way? God’s will be done? All that? Why can’t a married priest muddle through poverty just like the rest of us?

I agree more married clergy won’t do much to solve the priest shortage problem. The Orthodox and Protestants likewise have declining numbers of clergymen. I just really don’t mind the idea. There were married clergy in the New Testament. I don’t think it is unhealthy for the Church culture. Again, I would like to see both - I don’t like the way Protestantism got to the point where a clergyman basically HAD to marry. That is silly.

But that in and of itself speaks to the fact that there doesn’t appear to be a plan.

We can’t on one hand talk of ensuring everyone is provided a living wage (whatever that means, and it means different things depending on who you ask) and at the same time not provide a living wage for a married father of multiple children who feels called to the Priesthood.

We can always say where this is a will, there is a way, but you could use that as a cop for anything that happens that you don’t properly plan for. Why bother to have health insurance? If I get seriously ill, where there is a will there is a way?

Perhaps the solution is that the married father who enters the Priesthood will be expected to live in relative poverty, and pull his children out of private school. I don’t think that’s a particularly good plan, but at least it would be honesty about a plan up front. But again, how is this providing them a living wage, as we are told is needed for all people???

I am not sure what married Priests with young children who require most of their time, either due to serious ailments or simply byy the nature of children being demanding, are supposed to do when they suddenly have two flocks that need their attention.

Life as a father (or mother) is all consuming. It becomes troublesome to find regular time for serious prayer by yourself, to say nothing adding the demands of the Priesthood, however noble and worthy they are.

It just seems like doing something for the sake of doing something (as another posted pointed out), which is never a good reason to “do something,” especially when the details have never been worked out or explained with great thought, at least to me.

 

[FollowChrist34]

But that in and of itself speaks to the fact that there doesn’t appear to be a plan.

We can’t on one hand talk of ensuring everyone is provided a living wage (whatever that means, and it means different things depending on who you ask) and at the same time not provide a living wage for a married father of multiple children who feels called to the Priesthood.

We can always say where this is a will, there is a way, but you could use that as a cop for anything that happens that you don’t properly plan for. Why bother to have health insurance? If I get seriously ill, where there is a will there is a way?

Perhaps the solution is that the married father who enters the Priesthood will be expected to live in relative poverty, and pull his children out of private school. I don’t think that’s a particularly good plan, but at least it would be honesty about a plan up front. But again, how is this providing them a living wage, as we are told is needed for all people???

I am not sure what married Priests with young children who require most of their time, either due to serious ailments or simply byy the nature of children being demanding, are supposed to do when they suddenly have two flocks that need their attention.

Life as a father (or mother) is all consuming. It becomes troublesome to find regular time for serious prayer by yourself, to say nothing adding the demands of the Priesthood, however noble and worthy they are.

It just seems like doing something for the sake of doing something (as another posted pointed out), which is never a good reason to “do something,” especially when the details have never been worked out or explained with great thought, at least to me.

You are hitting on a big point. There have long been scuffles in the Church over just exactly what kind of bread we are concerning ourselves with. Bread that comes out of an oven or bread that comes out of the Bible. Obviously both, but I personally feel that the Church sticks her head into the weeds re emphasizing the bread coming from the oven a bit much - at the expense of bread from the Bible. IMHO. Not sure anyone has a definitive answer to how to balance that or how “NGO” we go and stay Christians not of this world.

As for married clergy. I am not the high ranking Jesuit going around suggesting these things. If I were a high ranking Jesuit I sincerely doubt I would have said what he said. So, no, I am not pushing for changing to married clergy for the sake of change. I am just noting that this is an OLD topic (and yes I mean the early Church), NOT a new one. I have been in parishes with married deacons and it did not bother me. Married deacons can relate to married couples and the issues they have. (so can celibate priests I believe) I am just saying it didn’t bother me - it would allow more priests - the Orthodox and Protestants allow it. That is all. I have no problem with those who oppose it.

 

[jilly4ski]

But that in and of itself speaks to the fact that there doesn’t appear to be a plan.

We can’t on one hand talk of ensuring everyone is provided a living wage (whatever that means, and it means different things depending on who you ask) and at the same time not provide a living wage for a married father of multiple children who feels called to the Priesthood.

We can always say where this is a will, there is a way, but you could use that as a cop for anything that happens that you don’t properly plan for. Why bother to have health insurance? If I get seriously ill, where there is a will there is a way?

Perhaps the solution is that the married father who enters the Priesthood will be expected to live in relative poverty, and pull his children out of private school. I don’t think that’s a particularly good plan, but at least it would be honesty about a plan up front. But again, how is this providing them a living wage, as we are told is needed for all people???

I am not sure what married Priests with young children who require most of their time, either due to serious ailments or simply byy the nature of children being demanding, are supposed to do when they suddenly have two flocks that need their attention.

Life as a father (or mother) is all consuming. It becomes troublesome to find regular time for serious prayer by yourself, to say nothing adding the demands of the Priesthood, however noble and worthy they are.

It just seems like doing something for the sake of doing something (as another posted pointed out), which is never a good reason to “do something,” especially when the details have never been worked out or explained with great thought, at least to me.

The church and priests are already accused of being wealthy, greedy, and too rich, I am having a hard time imagining an average parish being ok with their priest’s children being in a private school (that is not the parish school), or driving nice cars, or his kids getting better stuff than their kids etc. While people should be fine with it, I have noticed that people are generally not okay with someone they are supporting having nicer things than them. (See Pope Francis’ comments on priests cars- and all the negative comments about priests shouldn’t drive nice cars). There seems to be enough confusion about priests and the vow of poverty (which they don’t make), that such a move would take a lot of education of both Catholics and non-Catholics a like.

 

[hwriggles4]

Here are a few observations:

1. I believe that diocesan priests do not take a vow of poverty, only religious order priests. Yes, I do know some priests who drive nicer cars, but at least one of them I know comes from a large family and his family members chipped in to help him buy a car that would last 10 years. With sick calls at 2:00 a.m., a priest needs a reliable car.
2. Diocesan priests are paid a salary, but it is not very much. Although the salary they are paid, most of them can do what they want (or need) to do with the money, since a priest living in a rectory does not have a mortgage, and diocesan priests do get a food allowance and a car allowance. I don’t know how the utilities are paid for the rectory.
3. I did read now Episcopalian Fr. Alberto Cutie’s book Dilemma a few years ago, and I remember him saying that there were some priests that took possessions and materialism to an extreme (i.e. one priest he knew with wall to wall videotapes), and others with obsessions. Some had many pets (I do know a few priests that have one or two cats or a dog - which is generally OK), but there were a few who took materialism to an extreme. I think there is some truth to this.
4. Most of the married priests who were accepted under the Pastoral Provision (or those who were ordained after being widowed) that I have met (with the exception of three) do not have young children. Oftentimes, a “late vocation” candidate is asked by the vocation director what his commitment is to children (if he had any). That I know of, most dioceses for a “late vocation” want the potential seminarian (particularly a widower) to have his financial obligations to children completed prior to entering seminary. A widower who had a career (and maybe retired early) may not need to make much money, particularly if they are receiving a retirement pension from a previous job. I know at least two priests in my area who are widowers who have something like this.
5. One married priest I know in my area with young children serves in a capacity doing faith formation, which may (I don’t know) give him some additional monetary compensation for his family. I do know if he gets a sick call at midnight, he has to get up and go (and does). I believe Fr. Scott Caton in the Rochester (NY) diocese has a teaching job during the week, which may (I don’t know) give him some additional monetary compensation. There’s an Ordinariate priest serving in the Houston area who also has some young kids, and there’s another in Scranton. I think Fr. Dwight Longnecker in South Carolina has some younger children as well. It is a struggle with two vocations, but they are willing to make it work.
6. I do know of some married priests accepted under the Pastoral Provision (I’ve met one, and there are a few others) serving in the military. In the military, a priest is paid by rank like everyone else - although Catholic priests (I don’t know if this is the same for Protestant clergy) receive Reserve commissions, even if they are serving on active duty. A large difference between a Reserve commission and a Regular commission is if an officer stays 20 years, he can take a retirement. A Reserve commissioned officer does not begin receiving retirement until age 60 or 62, where an active duty officer can start receiving his pension upon retirement, even if he retired at 42, which is common in military service. The married priests that I am familiar with serving in the military have had prior service in another billet (i.e. specialty), so they are familiar with the military way of life. Several of the other Catholic priests in the service have also done the same, which equips them better for military life (plus previous time served counts toward their retirement). Military chaplains (all denominations) have to be physically fit, and they must be under 42 years old at the time of beginning their chaplaincy.
7. As far as being transferred, years ago I recall an article in Crisis magazine by a former Episcopal priest (Fr. Ryland, who was one of the first married clergy in the United States to be accepted under the Pastoral Provision circa 1980) who brought up this point: Can you see the reaction of your wife if you were being transferred to a bad neighborhood? I can hear now how many chanceries would be getting complaints from priests wives that their husbands were being transferred to an area of a city where a reputation of crime, gang involvement, stabbings, and shootings are present. A permanent deacon in this situation probably would work at a parish as needed, but would not live in that area, particularly if he is married.
8. Married priests do have struggles. I’ve heard that Protestant ministers have a hard time balancing work and family life, and some wives of Protestant ministers wish their husbands could spend more time with family. Years ago, I read that many of the Orthodox priests were married to women who had a father who was part of the clergy - so growing up, they experienced the demands that their mothers had on their family life, which prepared these daughters to be married to an Orthodox priest.

I hope this post helps clear up some misconceptions.