High-ranking US Jesuit: Married priests would be healthy for the Church

[thejeopardyfan]

Good.

I meant it’s not about ordaining married men. I think you misunderstood me, not that it’s relevant to the rest of the conversation. Maybe see the article I link to in the first post of this thread.

 

[Gorgias]

Do we know how many laicized priests there are in the U.S.? There can’t be many, especially who left to get married to a specific person.

No, I believe we do not know the number, since laicizations aren’t made public knowledge by the Church (out of respect of the privacy of the men).

However, we know that, around the time of the Second Vatican Council, a wave of priests left the priesthood, for two reasons: some left because VCII’s theology of the priesthood (especially what ‘priesthood’ and ‘episcopacy’ mean and how the two are related) shattered their self-image; and others left once it became clear that the ‘conventional wisdom’ that the Church was going to allow existing priests to marry was just an unfounded rumor.

thejeopardyfan:

I would think that if future priests were allowed to marry and current ones weren’t, we’did see a mass laicization.

Why would you think that? It doesn’t make any sense. Are you saying that you think large numbers of priests want marriage so badly that, if married men were allowed to be ordained, the existing priests would leave their ministry in order to be married? Or, are you saying that you think that existing priests would attempt to leave so that they could get married and then come back again? Neither of these make any sense – the former asserts that large numbers of priests don’t want to be priests (statistics don’t bear that out) and the latter is an impossibility (there isn’t such a loophole – even today, it isn’t really possible to be formally laicized and come back again).

So… what, exactly, do you mean – and why do you think that would happen?

 

[thejeopardyfan]

Well, imagine if you were a priest, and the extremely unlikely happens where the pope says priests can get married. Now imagine the pope stipulated that doesn’t apply to you (which is not the act of mercy I consider such a move). Can you feel the hopelessness? I think it would be intense enough that existing priests wouldn’t stay.

 

[hwriggles4]

Ordaining to the priesthood experienced married deacons who already work for no pay and whose children are grown and gone avoids every issue you mentioned.

Tarpeian Rock:

It is my understanding that permanent deacons do receive stipends. Also, quite a few have a “nine to five” job in some aspect of church ministry. I know one whose “nine to five” job is at a Catholic high school, and I know of another who works at the diocese in an administrative capacity that deals with ministry coordination, and another who works “nine to five” as a parish administrator.

I do know quite a few permanent deacons (note that I am differentiating between “permanent deacon” and “transitional deacon” - the average Catholic in the pew who attends weekly Mass doesn’t know the difference between the two - seriously) who did not enter the diaconate until children were grown. Why? Because being a permanent deacon takes quite a bit of time. The formation is something like two weekends a month for five or six years, and the wife must agree to the formation, and go with her husband on several occasions. This is another reason why the “average permanent deacon” doesn’t enter formation until he is in his 50’s (or older), is an empty nester, and many have been able to retire early from a “nine to five” job, which gives them more time to devote to the diaconate, and gives them some money to live on.

The role of the permanent deacon is also different than the priest, and in recent years, I’m glad to see that some of the misconceptions of the permanent deacon have been cleared up. In the 70s and 80s, at least were I grew up, it seemed like the permanent deacon at my parish did most of everything, including preaching almost weekly, and many parishioners seemed to think that the role of the diaconate would eventually replace the priest (again, this was the 70s and 80s, and hardly anyone I remember went to confession on Saturday afternoons - I remember because my brother and I were regular altar boy Saturday evening).

I also noted that I know some good priests who are widowers, and many dioceses (honestly, I don’t know if there are any exceptions - it would probably be case-by-case prior to entering seminary) screen candidates to be sure that obligations to children have been taken care of (i.e. children are over 18 and no longer dependent on dad). Another thing that candidates are screened for is debt. If a potential seminarian has quite a bit of debt, many dioceses and religious orders (I said many, not all) see that as a red flag.

I also heard a good argument about married clergy that in counseling and family relations, some wives of priests (and maybe some permanent deacons wives have experienced this) is that when it comes to counseling and relating, a wife might feel uncomfortable with her husband showing examples from their marriage - depending on what the topic is - particularly from the pulpit.

I also liked the argument that Fr. Ryland (a former Episcopal priest who entered under the Pastoral Provision - and I believe was the 2nd priest to do so circa 1983) that if a priest was transferred to an undesirable part of town, can you imagine how his wife would feel? I could see the phone ringing off the hook at the chancery office!!

Just my 2 cents.

 

[hwriggles4]

No, I believe we do not know the number, since laicizations aren’t made public knowledge by the Church (out of respect of the privacy of the men).

However, we know that, around the time of the Second Vatican Council, a wave of priests left the priesthood, for two reasons: some left because VCII’s theology of the priesthood (especially what ‘priesthood’ and ‘episcopacy’ mean and how the two are related) shattered their self-image; and others left once it became clear that the ‘conventional wisdom’ that the Church was going to allow existing priests to marry was just an unfounded rumor.

I don’t think laicized men would be allowed to re-enter the priesthood. I’ve heard that former Catholic priests who became Episcopalian are not allowed to become priests under the Pastoral Provision. (Example: Fr. Alberto Cutie will not be allowed to do this. There are also others - quite a few in the 60s and 70s - who became Episcopal priests. I personally know at least one who left the Diocese of Austin sometime in the 90s and is now an Episcopal priests outside of Texas - I will not put his name here. I mention Fr. Cutie because he is well known, and I did read his book Dilemma, mostly because he and I are from the same generation - and I know the seminary that he attended in the Archdiocese of Miami had quite a few problems in the early to mid 1990s, so I was interested in what Fr. Cutie had to say).

Clarification: when I say “laicized”, I mean those who were not “laicized” due to criminal mischief (and there are quite a few priests who fall under this category for laicization, and none of them should return to active ministry). Those who left to marry, some may have followed the steps for Catholic marriage, but I would think quite a few married outside of the Church, in part to marry a little faster. Some may have had convalidations later after their laicization, but I think these “convalidations” would not be the majority.

Again, just my 2 cents.

 

[GEddie]

Well, imagine if you were a priest, and the extremely unlikely happens where the pope says priests can get married. Now imagine the pope stipulated that doesn’t apply to you (which is not the act of mercy I consider such a move). Can you feel the hopelessness? I think it would be intense enough that existing priests wouldn’t stay.

Methinks you are misunderstanding the issue a wee-bit.

The change, if it ever came, would not be “Priests can now get married, except --oops-- suck and such.”

It would be, rather, “Married men will be considered, in some instances, to enter seminary formation; but no-one shall marry after ordination.”

In other words, current priesthood to remain the same.

I don’t think large numbers would try to leave the priesthood. What I do think, however, is that many in formation would leave to find a wife. The result would be a worsening of the “priest shortfall” for many years.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[GEddie]

Oops, I noticed too late a bad typo in the preceding entry!

In one word, a “K” should have been an “H”!

Mea culpa!

 

[jilly4ski]

Methinks you are misunderstanding the issue a wee-bit.

The change, if it ever came, would not be “Priests can now get married, except --oops-- suck and such.”

It would be, rather, “Married men will be considered, in some instances, to enter seminary formation; but no-one shall marry after ordination.”

In other words, current priesthood to remain the same.

I don’t think large numbers would try to leave the priesthood. What I do think, however, is that many in formation would leave to find a wife. The result would be a worsening of the “priest shortfall” for many years.

ICXC NIKA.

I don’t know, I guess it depends on human nature. Indeed the change will never be getting married once already ordained, but rather, already ordained priests feeling like they got the rug pulled out from under their feet, especially if the norm quickly becomes married priesthood. Like they were cheated or lied to. Some (spiritually healthy) priests won’t care, but we as humans are not always spiritually healthy. Some will be fine with it, some will be fine but then get into a slump and later feel bad about it, and others will be sour right off the bat. I don’t think jepordyfan is misstating the issue, I think one would definitely have to deal with prior-ordained priests who feel jealous, cheated, and frustrated at various points in their priesthood, if such a change in discipline occurred.

 

[JimG]

This thread reminded me of a recent Journey Home program where Brandon Sheard talked about his journey into the Catholic Church. As a committed Christian but not affiliated with any denomination, he had a strong interest in preaching the gospel. He attended a Protestant seminary and just at a moment in his life when it seemed he should be ready, he was given an opportunity to be pastor of a church in a city.

He gave a lot of thought to taking this offer, but in the end, he decided against it. His reasoning was that he also felt strongly that his true vocation in life was to be husband to his wife and father to his family. He thought that the pastorate would not fit in with the vocation of personal fatherhood, because it would make everything he did too public, it would make his family too public, and it would give him a second, church family to father, which would detract from his personal fatherhood.

That was just his thinking, but it made an impression on me.

 

[DAML72]

I think it would be a wonderful blessing to the church, for many reasons. Celibacy is a wonderful witness, but I don’t necessarily think that all men called to the priesthood are given the gift of celibacy. So, I don’t see why marriage can’t be an option. Let each man decide for himself.

 

[DAML72]

I am torn with what has been going on in my state with clergy sexual abuse scandals and cover ups that never seem to end. From the croziers to the benedictine monks, all the way up to our archbishop, the church in our area is wrought with scandal. We also have a shortage of good priests which has caused me to question why hanging onto the celibacy requirement seems to be so important to the Catholic church.

Nowhere in the bible that I can find does it require priests to be celibate. In leviticus, it talks about the requirements for priests, talking about who they can and can’t marry. If the bible is truth, why should we think that rules made by men are better than God’s? I think that married priests could bring a new perspective to the church as they would better understand their parishioners and the things that they struggle with in their walk of faith. I’ve recently attended several evangelical churches with married pastors and have left wondering why the sermons at my catholic masses can’t be as relevant and moving. Sermons where you could swear that the priest knows what’s on your heart, what’s going on in your life and that he wrote the sermon for you! Sermons that are truly a call to action, not just a regurgitation of the readings and or gospel that you just heard. Maybe allowing married priests would infuse some much needed life into the Catholic church.

Completely agree.

 

[GEddie]

I don’t think ending celibacy would have any connection to preaching.

Preaching is a gift from God. Not every priest has it, just as not every priest has a good voice. Sexual life is a totally separate matter.

Now, Protestants do often have better preaching. There’s a reason for that, and it’s not that they are married. Rather, because Protestants do not have the Mass, preaching is the ministers’ primary obligation (which is why many are called “preachers”). If someone can’t do it, they will be replaced with someone who can.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[steve_b]

I am torn with what has been going on in my state with clergy sexual abuse scandals and cover ups that never seem to end. From the croziers to the benedictine monks, all the way up to our archbishop, the church in our area is wrought with scandal. We also have a shortage of good priests which has caused me to question why hanging onto the celibacy requirement seems to be so important to the Catholic church.

we could ask this question in a different way.

• Married men can be ordained in the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church. Are vocations to the priesthood exploding in the Eastern Rites?
• where there are married clergy, (of all stripes) are there zero scandals of a sexual nature?

s:

Nowhere in the bible that I can find does it require priests to be celibate. In leviticus, it talks about the requirements for priests, talking about who they can and can’t marry. If the bible is truth, why should we think that rules made by men are better than God’s? I think that married priests could bring a new perspective to the church as they would better understand their parishioners and the things that they struggle with in their walk of faith. I’ve recently attended several evangelical churches with married pastors and have left wondering why the sermons at my catholic masses can’t be as relevant and moving. Sermons where you could swear that the priest knows what’s on your heart, what’s going on in your life and that he wrote the sermon for you! Sermons that are truly a call to action, not just a regurgitation of the readings and or gospel that you just heard. Maybe allowing married priests would infuse some much needed life into the Catholic church.

As you know, priestly celibacy is a discipline not a doctrine or dogma. Therefore, technically It could change. If it did, married clergy would NOT be without its own issues.

 

[DAML72]

we could ask this question in a different way.

As you know, priestly celibacy is a discipline not a doctrine or dogma. Therefore, technically It could change. If it did, married clergy would NOT be without its own issues.

I can’t think of anything in life that doesn’t have its own issues.

 

[ProdigalSun]

Yes, there are some kinks to work out. I assume married priests would not be reassigned.

Some kinks! Oh I think there would be more than a few.

1. Will a priest be able to marry after he has become a priest or only before he becomes a priest?
2. will priests that have taken an oath to not marry be relieved of their oath.
3. Where will this couple live? Will the parish have to support the father, Mother, and all the children? No use of contraception and all that!
4. A priest will normally make around $15,000 to 30,000 a year with living expenses paid. Lets say for instance a city parish has a rectory where the priests for that parish live. WIll the parish now have to buy a house also so the new family can have a place to live. I doubt very much the wife and chidren would want to live in a rectory and the other non married preist should not have to put up with all the issues that come with this “parish family”

There are so many down sides to this issue and I only relayed a couple of the logistical ones. There are so many problems spiritually & physically that arise from a married priesthood it boggles the mind.

The church was very prudent in instituting a celibate priesthood. I can’t imagine a complete rule change but hey that is just me.

 

[ProdigalSun]

Methinks you are misunderstanding the issue a wee-bit.

The change, if it ever came, would not be “Priests can now get married, except --oops-- suck and such.”

It would be, rather, “Married men will be considered, in some instances, to enter seminary formation; but no-one shall marry after ordination.”

In other words, current priesthood to remain the same.

I don’t think large numbers would try to leave the priesthood. What I do think, however, is that many in formation would leave to find a wife. The result would be a worsening of the “priest shortfall” for many years.

ICXC NIKA.

Exactly, we would have a worse scenario than ever before.

I can’t imagine to many women are going to want their husbands going into the priesthood. It would be a major culture shock and renumeration would mean that the wife would need to have a good paying job to offset the wage reduction in the husbands pay. As well as being the major bread winner the wife would still need to be the primary caregiver as the husband would be working way to much. Not conducive for a happy marriage.

We have a married preist in our parish. He came over from the Anglican parish here. He is a very hard working man and loves his family but says the celibate priest is a much better Idea., My wife and his wife a close to a degree and she was not happy until he finally retired due to illness.

 

[ProdigalSun]

I don’t know, I guess it depends on human nature. Indeed the change will never be getting married once already ordained, but rather, already ordained priests feeling like they got the rug pulled out from under their feet, especially if the norm quickly becomes married priesthood. Like they were cheated or lied to. Some (spiritually healthy) priests won’t care, but we as humans are not always spiritually healthy. Some will be fine with it, some will be fine but then get into a slump and later feel bad about it, and others will be sour right off the bat. I don’t think jepordyfan is misstating the issue, I think one would definitely have to deal with prior-ordained priests who feel jealous, cheated, and frustrated at various points in their priesthood, if such a change in discipline occurred.

Only a small number of priests have a desire for marriage. All priests I have talked with about the issue are happily celibate & unmarried.

 

[ProdigalSun]

I started this thread, so I know that’s not what it’s about.

Well then you are way out in left field if you think the church should marry ordained men that have took a vow of Celibacy. This will not happen!

I can just imagine my daughter coming home and telling me “The priest was hitting on me again, I think he wants to ask me out on a date!” yuch!

Not to mention where do you think this married priests are going to live? The rectory?

Housing costs in my city are an average of about $400,000.00 with rents being around 1800.00/month. YOu don’t see a problem with this math? what about chidren! will the parish have to pay for them also?

YOu really need to look at the bigger picture. Preists make between $15,000 & 30,000 annually. no way can they manage this on there own!

 

[thejeopardyfan]

I will pray, hope and not worry.

 

[jilly4ski]

Only a small number of priests have a desire for marriage. All priests I have talked with about the issue are happily celibate & unmarried.

Maybe, but they are human, we all have weak moments, and not just that they would have or wanted to be married, but that they didn’t have the option to choose. Hopefully, they would see that they chose the celibate path to become a priest. It was a sacrificial choice. Of course, just because sacrificial love is beautiful, doesn’t mean it isn’t hard sometimes.