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robwar
Guest
The future for her is the hidden tragedy and there is no thought about that. But most 18 year olds have not concept of that. Seemingly, nor do the lawyers that are working for her. I agree totally with your point.
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SMGS127
Guest
Well, I wasn’t meaning to make a judgment in this case. I just didn’t want others rushing to judgment, because the poor behavior on the part of the girl (drinking, bulimia, the voicemail) could be a psychological response to abuse or it could be a spoiled personality. But we don’t know which, and we shouldn’t be making assumptions. I just gave my own story to point out that people oftentimes assume someone is spoiled just because their family is [relatively] wealthy and they act out. It can give wealthy parents a license to abuse their children, as no one would ever listen to the child over them.
Woah I had to look those up. That sounds awesome! I hope she enjoyed herself (but not too much once ‘Aschermittwoch’ starts today
)
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Sarabande
Guest
The judge rules that her parents do not have to pay for her high school education and denied an allowance request as well as paying for the girl’s legal fees.
gma.yahoo.com/rachel-canning-loses-effort-parents-pay-high-school-192643568–abc-news-parenting.html?vp=1
Many of the laws in NJ (not to mentioned the enormously high real estate taxes) are one of the reasons why my husband and I decided against moving there even when he worked in the state and buying a house was less expensive than in the state where we live now. Don’t even get me started on renters’ rights. We have family that had to go through hell in order to kick out a horrible renter.
gma.yahoo.com/rachel-canning-loses-effort-parents-pay-high-school-192643568–abc-news-parenting.html?vp=1
Many of the laws in NJ (not to mentioned the enormously high real estate taxes) are one of the reasons why my husband and I decided against moving there even when he worked in the state and buying a house was less expensive than in the state where we live now. Don’t even get me started on renters’ rights. We have family that had to go through hell in order to kick out a horrible renter.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
As a research psychologist, I would like to see the correlation between rebelliousness and the amount of LOVE in the family structure. I’ll bet it’s a relatively strong correlation, suggesting that rebelliousness may indeed be tied to the LOVE within the family.Robert, rebellious teenaged children are a very normal thing. Not saying that it is obligatory, nor am I saying it’s optimal, but it is very normal.
Usually the kids figure it out by the time they’re 17 or 18…but not always.
Personally, I didn’t figure it out until I had to start paying my own bills, just sayin’
I would like your thoughts on how teenage rebelliousness develops? Would you dare suggest that it’s not related to LOVE within the family? Surly you would not say that rebelliousness is entirely random, with no cause whatsoever.
LOVE!
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grotto
Guest
As a research psychologist, I would like to see the correlation between rebelliousness and the amount of LOVE in the family structure. I’ll bet it’s a relatively strong correlation, suggesting that rebelliousness may indeed be tied to the LOVE within the family.
I would like your thoughts on how teenage rebelliousness develops? Would you dare suggest that it’s not related to LOVE within the family? Surly you would not say that rebelliousness is entirely random, with no cause whatsoever.
LOVE!
What are you saying? Strong love causes strong rebellion? Thats like apples and oranges!
It would be more accurate to suggest that excessive control would bring about rebellion not LOVE. Too much psycho babble for me.
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7armyrugrats
Guest
I think he was saying the opposite…a lack of love brings about rebellion.
I still think this has mire to do with a boyfriend, or even a series of boyfriends, and a girl that wants her own way without any responsibilities. One article quoted the girl saying that as a freshman her parents wouldn’t allow her to date and the problems seemed to escalate from there according to both sides. Soon she developed an eating disorder, starts sneaking out, drinking, being expelled from school. From freshman to senior it lists problem after problem, usually involving a boyfriend situation. It includes stealing from her parents and sisters, arguments and fighting, school suspensions, and on and on and on.
One of the most disturbing aspects for me is that the same school that suspended her at least twice (for truancy and drinking at a school function) in the 1st semester of senior year is now stating that she is an excellent student that they will NOT kick out of school due to nonpayment. The same girl they kicked out twice while her parents were paying, and now that mom and dad are withholding payment, they come to her defense. What makes it worse is this is a CATHOLIC SCHOOL we are talking about. When did good grades and star athlete/cheerleader begin to mean more to a Catholic school than good behavior and citizenship?
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robwar
Guest
I think what Robert was saying is that it was a lack of love in the home that may have lead to what we are now seeing on TV. Unless someone here knew this family closely, none of us can accurately say what happen in the home. My husband is a marriage and family therapist and people bring him their teenage kids all the time with the hope that he is going to fix them. It doesn’t work that way and stuff like this is developed over time. Did she rebel because she had a lack of accepting love? Did she rebel because appropriate discipline and brakes on behavior were not put in in the early years and when she became a teen and behavior became more serious it was too late to say no to her? He sees more of the later family dynamics than the earlier. But if she was always under pressure to look and behave a certain way because they were an upper middle class family and there is a lot of keep up with the Jones type stuff goes on then maybe Robert is right. I think none of us really know. The later which is what Robert is alluding to might explain why she had problems with bulimia. I would image that all this will come out in the subsequent hearings.
The whole thing is really sad and this family needs our prayers.
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St_Francis
Guest
Sheesh, mostly parents try to do their best and children try to do their best. my motger had a habit in her raising of me which was a reaction to her raising, and I possibly overreacted to that in the raising of my children…
But children are also part of the equation. Yes, the parents are in charge, and they are the adults in the relationship but sometimes there is only so much they can do with a child who has decided to evade their authority. Telling one’s children not date when they are 13-14 years old is not unreasonable, but a child who is bound and determined to date at that age, sneaking out of the house and lying to get their way–what are tye parents to do?
Even the parents of saints or saintly parents had some children who went their own way, for a short time or forever.
Sometimes in a dispute the one who is in the wrong is very clear; sometimes not so much. On the face of it, it seems that these parents, who tried to do their best, have a daughter who refuses to accept their boundaries, the boundaries of the school or legal boundaries. How she arrived at this point is unclear.
But children are also part of the equation. Yes, the parents are in charge, and they are the adults in the relationship but sometimes there is only so much they can do with a child who has decided to evade their authority. Telling one’s children not date when they are 13-14 years old is not unreasonable, but a child who is bound and determined to date at that age, sneaking out of the house and lying to get their way–what are tye parents to do?
Even the parents of saints or saintly parents had some children who went their own way, for a short time or forever.
Sometimes in a dispute the one who is in the wrong is very clear; sometimes not so much. On the face of it, it seems that these parents, who tried to do their best, have a daughter who refuses to accept their boundaries, the boundaries of the school or legal boundaries. How she arrived at this point is unclear.
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gam197
Guest
This case is continued to the end of April so we wait and see, hopefully someone will catch the decision in the news.
I think peer pressure has a lot to do with it and that is why homeschooling helps.
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KCT
Guest
Hopefully the parents are LOVING her by not enabling her!
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Dawnia
Guest
The college tuition is the only issue left to decide at that hearing.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
Perhaps so. But I still see the family as lacking in love. It’s the parents’ duty to implant love deep within the child’s development. For whatever reason, it seems that these seeds never took root.
Being an authoritarian parent presents all sorts of serious problems for the parent/child relationship. Endless research, which I have been personally involved, strongly supports this fact.
LOVE!
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Sarabande
Guest
Right. As the article states, the judge had decided against the girl in regards to the payment of the high school tuition and legal fees. The only thing left is the college tuition.
I think the actions of the father of the friend are awful. She would not have been seeking legal action had he not counseled her to do so. Instead, he is enabling her and created even more of a break in the parent/child bond.
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Deltadeliquent
Guest
Actually, I’m gonna go out on a limb and dissent…I know I’ll get a lot of flak for it.
I do believe that parents are morally obligated to try their best to make sure their child has a way of making a living when they are adults.
It might be through education, (paid for or through loans) or the family business, or even just a good sense of street smarts, hard work and responsibility. Whatever the parents are able to do. And the process should have started long ago when the child was a child.
Life is very complicated these days, there are many more people competing for the same jobs or professions. Life had never been easy, but I do think that life is in many ways, harder than in past times. More interesting, and we have a lot more stuff. But harder, more confusing. Nothing is the same from one day to the next, and expectations are so overblown.
I think it is an outrage for parents to throw their child out of the house at 18 without any means to support themselves, having experienced just that myself.
It’s the last thing a parent needs to do…to make sure the child has a way of earning a living, to make sure they can be independent. To throw them out to be homeless and hungry and to make desperate choices in order to survive…I don’t see that as a virtue. I’ve never been a fan of the sink or swim school of thought.
If the child rejects it, that’s a whole 'another story.
And I feel for those parents who have done everything they could to raise their children well… As many of those children reject those parents for spurious reasons.
I’m not commenting on the original story of the teenager in court, I think much like the others commenters here. I don’t think this is what theses parents are doing. In fact I think the teen is one of those who reject their parents for silly reasons.
But I don’t think that being a parent is a job that is ever finished. And these days, certainly not at 18.
I do believe that parents are morally obligated to try their best to make sure their child has a way of making a living when they are adults.
It might be through education, (paid for or through loans) or the family business, or even just a good sense of street smarts, hard work and responsibility. Whatever the parents are able to do. And the process should have started long ago when the child was a child.
Life is very complicated these days, there are many more people competing for the same jobs or professions. Life had never been easy, but I do think that life is in many ways, harder than in past times. More interesting, and we have a lot more stuff. But harder, more confusing. Nothing is the same from one day to the next, and expectations are so overblown.
I think it is an outrage for parents to throw their child out of the house at 18 without any means to support themselves, having experienced just that myself.
It’s the last thing a parent needs to do…to make sure the child has a way of earning a living, to make sure they can be independent. To throw them out to be homeless and hungry and to make desperate choices in order to survive…I don’t see that as a virtue. I’ve never been a fan of the sink or swim school of thought.
If the child rejects it, that’s a whole 'another story.
And I feel for those parents who have done everything they could to raise their children well… As many of those children reject those parents for spurious reasons.
I’m not commenting on the original story of the teenager in court, I think much like the others commenters here. I don’t think this is what theses parents are doing. In fact I think the teen is one of those who reject their parents for silly reasons.
But I don’t think that being a parent is a job that is ever finished. And these days, certainly not at 18.
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markomalley
Guest
I agree that it **should **not happen that a parent throws a child out in the street.
Having said that, though, at some point in time, it needs to transition from being a legal obligation to being a voluntary association.
For example, if the child is a druggie. If the child brings the drugs into the parents’ home, the parents are liable for the substance being in their home. If the child steals the parents’ property (money, jewelry, electronics, etc.) in order to sell it to support their habit.
For example, if the child is promiscuous and has multiple sex partners spending the night in his/her room on a regular / recurring basis. (You can make a statement that the parents can forbid such a thing, but who’s to stop it once the parents go to sleep at night?)
If the child is below the age of majority, there is really not too much a parent can do other than put up with it and lock their belongings up so they can’t be stolen. And I am not suggesting that it is not appropriate for parents to seek help for the child. But at some point in time, it is enough.
I understand from your post that your parents just put you out. From your tone, it sounds like you don’t believe that there was any justifiable reason for it – I’m sorry that happened to you. But you have to realize that there are some cases (not saying yours was one of them) where that is the only thing left for parents to do.
As a side note: I remember a kid my daughter went to high school with was just such a kid. Got into drugs. Stole from his parents. They finally put him out about 6 months after he graduated because he would not respond to anything else. He was on the streets for a couple of years…I understand that he finally agreed to dry out, get the help he needed to get back on track, and his parents have welcomed him back in their home.
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Dawnia
Guest
Generally I agree, however I think it really depends on the kid and the situation. Sometimes parents can do everything right and still end up with a kid who just doesn’t want to do anything for themselves. I see far more parents ending up with kids in their 30s & 40s who are still financially dependent on them than I do parents kicking their children out. At some point, parents have to let go and let their children sink or swim.
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Deltadeliquent
Guest
Just for the record… There was none of that in my instance. I was a good student who had planned, for years, with my parents assent, to have a career in Archaeology. When it came to pay tuition ( the very day…) they refused. My parents made over $200,000 a year 35 years ago. And they spent 4 weeks in Europe every summer. I had a nanny and a housekeeper growing up.
I was told that the world did not owe me a living. I lived in my car for 9 months and then married someone who had no business marrying anyone. I had no one to go to, nor anywhere to go. I had no way to get into the field I had planned for, dreamed of for so long. I didn’t have a plan B.My father kept me as a dependent on his taxes until I was 25 even though he was not supporting me. There was no way to get financil aid with an income like his. I was totally lost, and swept out to sea.
My parents did not fulfill that last duty.
I’m not looking for sympathy here, its way under the bridge, but there were no drugs, no parties, no boyfriends. I was not a problem in any sense of the word. I had always been very compliant and loving with my parents. I was active in school and had hobbies that I pursued throughout childhood and teenage hood. I had worked to earn enough money to go on two school trips to Europe with the Latin club. They simply got tired of having children, and the duties they had towards them. My younger sister got it even worse. She had a disability that needed special care. They refused to supply it, and now she is working low paying factory jobs. And she is smarter than me!
I tell this tale because many people seem so sure that parents owe the kids nothing past 18.
I disagree, depending on the circumstances.
I am probably over sensitive because of my own experiences. And I do think that if the child refuses all attempts to get them ready for the world, then simply leaving them to learn in the school of hard knocks is the right thing to do. One cannot sacrifice everything especially in the face of cold rejection.
I am just saying, that as a parent, getting your child ready to be independent is one of the duties a parent owes a child. It’s like the lioness teaching her cub to hunt. Thats the way lions make their living. Parents have to teach their children how to hunt, to the best of their ability. Parents need to shelter, feed and clothe, as well as teach their kids right from wrong. And I think, they should also do what they can to make sure the kids have a way of making a living when they are old enough.
I do think that these parents of this teenager have fulfilled that duty. And they are being repaid it the worst way. I can understand the pain they are going through and the reason people are posting what they are here. I am not in sympathy with the teenager. Se seems like so many of our young people today who want everything now. Like I said, expectations are very overblown these days. And there is a terrible pressure in the world to dismiss anyone in authority. It’s no cool to like your parents.
But I do think that blanket statements are not very helpful. If I’ve learned anything, it’s that life doesn’t always go the way you think it should.
Sorry everyone, I guess the no obligation after 18 brigade pushed a button…
I was told that the world did not owe me a living. I lived in my car for 9 months and then married someone who had no business marrying anyone. I had no one to go to, nor anywhere to go. I had no way to get into the field I had planned for, dreamed of for so long. I didn’t have a plan B.My father kept me as a dependent on his taxes until I was 25 even though he was not supporting me. There was no way to get financil aid with an income like his. I was totally lost, and swept out to sea.
My parents did not fulfill that last duty.
I’m not looking for sympathy here, its way under the bridge, but there were no drugs, no parties, no boyfriends. I was not a problem in any sense of the word. I had always been very compliant and loving with my parents. I was active in school and had hobbies that I pursued throughout childhood and teenage hood. I had worked to earn enough money to go on two school trips to Europe with the Latin club. They simply got tired of having children, and the duties they had towards them. My younger sister got it even worse. She had a disability that needed special care. They refused to supply it, and now she is working low paying factory jobs. And she is smarter than me!
I tell this tale because many people seem so sure that parents owe the kids nothing past 18.
I disagree, depending on the circumstances.
I am probably over sensitive because of my own experiences. And I do think that if the child refuses all attempts to get them ready for the world, then simply leaving them to learn in the school of hard knocks is the right thing to do. One cannot sacrifice everything especially in the face of cold rejection.
I am just saying, that as a parent, getting your child ready to be independent is one of the duties a parent owes a child. It’s like the lioness teaching her cub to hunt. Thats the way lions make their living. Parents have to teach their children how to hunt, to the best of their ability. Parents need to shelter, feed and clothe, as well as teach their kids right from wrong. And I think, they should also do what they can to make sure the kids have a way of making a living when they are old enough.
I do think that these parents of this teenager have fulfilled that duty. And they are being repaid it the worst way. I can understand the pain they are going through and the reason people are posting what they are here. I am not in sympathy with the teenager. Se seems like so many of our young people today who want everything now. Like I said, expectations are very overblown these days. And there is a terrible pressure in the world to dismiss anyone in authority. It’s no cool to like your parents.
But I do think that blanket statements are not very helpful. If I’ve learned anything, it’s that life doesn’t always go the way you think it should.
Sorry everyone, I guess the no obligation after 18 brigade pushed a button…
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markomalley
Guest
There are very few people (at least in my experience) who believe that the offspring should be booted out of the house on their 18th Birthday.
But the term “owe” has implications.
Yes, parents should make provision for their children’s post-high school education and should support their children up until those children are able to support themselves.
Yes, children should want to become financially independent and should want to live as independent, self-sustaining members of society.
But, “owe”?
Not so much.
Sorry.
(BTW, for context, I say this as a parent who is gladly paying for his daughter’s Master’s degree)
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Deltadeliquent
Guest
Maybe owe is not the right word.
And I am speaking morally here, not legally.
And for context… I wish my son wanted a Master’s, I’d gladly pay!
( I still believe in education…
And I am speaking morally here, not legally.
And for context… I wish my son wanted a Master’s, I’d gladly pay!
( I still believe in education…
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markomalley
Guest
The philosophical / theological issue here is a general attitude of entitlement. I’m not saying that this was the case with you…I’m speaking generally, here.Maybe owe is not the right word.
And I am speaking morally here, not legally.
And for context… I wish my son wanted a Master’s, I’d gladly pay!
( I still believe in education…
If somebody owes you something, then you are entitled to it without having to do anything in exchange for it (the implication being that, since you are owed this, you’ve already “done” what was required for the other party to be in your debt)…and there is no reason for you to be thankful for having gotten it.
That attitude pervades our society…and not just among the young.
IMHO, it is a sick attitude that is not so slowly destroying our society.
Again, I’m not pointing a finger at you: I am speaking about society at large.
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