Hispanic bishops letter offers sympathy to illegal immigrants

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FAB said:
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Would tearing families apart, deporting children who have spent their entire lives here classify as an extreme hardship? As I said before. this country has chossen not to enforce our borders and our laws. The blaime lies with this country and not those who came here for a better life who we have accepted.
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I find statements like this disingenuous. We do enforce our borders! Why else do you have to hire a coyote to take you through the paths that they know of in the middle of the night, dodging the ICE and National Guard patrols?

As for breaking apart families by deporting the illegals and letting the documented members stay - we gave them amnesty in the 80s and said “never again”. If we keep giving amnesty to illegals every generation we might as well just open the border.

I favor a path to legality to the people here,because we need them working and we need their taxes - I want them to fund SS and medicare for my retirement- but I do not think that people who jumped the border should ever have a path to citizenship.
 
pnewton said:
This presents a false dichotomy. Bishops do not have to exclusively deal with one subject at a time. For the record the sex abuse stuff is pretty much cleaned up, as much as humanly possible anyway. Still, I suspect it will continue to brought up to belittle bishops at every opportunity.
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The suggestion wasn’t that the Bishops can only deal with one issue at a time, but they seem to be putting effort into things that aren’t as pressing as others. The sex abuse issue is far from cleaned up…witness the Bishop in Canada going to jail and the one in KC Bishop being charged…and the Vatican continuing to coddle Law. The entire point of my post was that delving into these political issues makes it hard for American Catholics to take seriously anything they have to say. I respect our bishops and give due consideration to all they have to say…and in good conscience reject their position on illegal immigration as missing the mark. One can be against illegal immigration and the full enforcement of US immigration laws and still be a good Catholic.
 
pnewton said:
As said, it is a misdemeanor. have you ever broken the speed limit or ran a red light even once? I would hope that you would not want to be treated as a pariah for it.
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First, it should be a felony to enter the country illegally. Second…a speeder breaks the law and then slows down…an illegal immigrant is breaking the law every second they are here.

Tell me this…what’s wrong with expecting people to follow the law and enter the country LEGALLY as my wife did rather than expecting special treatment. Treated as pariah? Can you give an example?
 
Leegal said:
I would ask Mehlman to show me the illegal immigrant who took someone’s job. I don’t pick lettuce and I don’t harvest potatos on Long Island. Show me the man or woman who has lost his job under this economic crisis and Mehlman should prove to me that this person has been looking for a job as a diswasher, in a restaurant, and has been denied, or has been looking for a job as a migrant worker.
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You can find plenty of people who lost work in the packing and construction industries as a result of illegal immigration. But in general, I still agree with your statement.

However, it has to be recognized that immigration (legal or semi-illegal) is completely wound up in our dysfunctional welfare state. Can’t have one without the other.

The reason citizens don’t pick vegetables and fruit a la The Grapes of Wrath and Of Mice and Men is because the Joads, Lenny and George find it more profitable to collect dole and other subsidies. That’s not their fault for doing so, rather, they are responding rationally to the governmen’s program as well as 12 years of state supported indoctrination that instills in them the belief that talented, dedicated, hard working or not, they are entitled to a level of material comfort that sets the standard in the world.

Que lastima.
 
It belies common sense to think of any reasons for thanking those who have caused serious moral consequences due to their illegal actions (whether intended or not.) My sympathies lie instead, with those who are suffering injustices as a result of this tremendously destructive impact on society although I have never heard the bishops address this side of the issue. But have no doubt - it is the leftist political element that disregards the common good and allows the destruction of cultures and nations.
 
Yerusalyim said:
Second…a speeder breaks the law and then slows down…an illegal immigrant is breaking the law every second they are here.
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But speeding is inherently dangerous. Bad driving accounts for, what is it? At least 30,000deaths each year in the US alone? How many injuries? Triple that number? How much property damage? Hundreds of millions of dollars?

Walking across a border is not inherently dangerous. Under your logic, speeding should be punished on a level with mayhem, or attempted malicious wounding. Twenty years in the penitentiary enough? Or is it too soft?
Tell me this…what’s wrong with expecting people to follow the law and enter the country LEGALLY
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The answer to this question gets into the proper scope of limited government. Your location is Germany, and its case is different because Germany does not really recognize the principal of limited government like we do in the US.

Under a limited government, however, the laws should reflect the government’s intention and willingness to enforce them. Once the government refuses to enforce the law, or enacts other laws that make illegal conduct necessary, the superceded laws must be changed. The result is oppression through selective enforcement.

Our federal government is suing Arizona to prevent Arizona from protecting its borders. The federal government claims it has the exclusive right to legislate and enforce immigration laws. But we know it has wilfully failed to do so.

So the question is, what is wrong with expecting people to respect a law that the government itself does not respect? The easiest answer to the question: because it is hypocrisy.
 
Yerusalyim said:
The suggestion wasn’t that the Bishops can only deal with one issue at a time, but they seem to be putting effort into things that aren’t as pressing as others. The sex abuse issue is far from cleaned up…witness the Bishop in Canada going to jail and the one in KC Bishop being charged…and the Vatican continuing to coddle Law. The entire point of my post was that delving into these political issues makes it hard for American Catholics to take seriously anything they have to say. .
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I would be happy to continue the sex abuse discussion and why it has been marvelously addressed for all except those who demand perfection elsewhere. The Apologetics Forum is a good place for addressing attacks on the Church. It is not the topic here.
 
Yerusalyim said:
First, it should be a felony to enter the country illegally.
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It is not, though, and is actually treated civilly, according to one immigration attorney who posts here.
Second…a speeder breaks the law and then slows down…an illegal immigrant is breaking the law every second they are here.
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A speeder is violating the law every second they speed. The illegal immigrant violates the law upon entry. Can you quote or find the law you think they are violating every second they are here? I am unfamiliar with any laws that would apply.
 
PaulinVA said:
I find statements like this disingenuous. We do enforce our borders! Why else do you have to hire a coyote to take you through the paths that they know of in the middle of the night, dodging the ICE and National Guard patrols?

As for breaking apart families by deporting the illegals and letting the documented members stay - we gave them amnesty in the 80s and said “never again”. If we keep giving amnesty to illegals every generation we might as well just open the border.

I favor a path to legality to the people here,because we need them working and we need their taxes - I want them to fund SS and medicare for my retirement- but I do not think that people who jumped the border should ever have a path to citizenship.
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The blame still lies greatly with us. We talk out of both sides of our mouths, we “say” we want to close the borders, but then we want this cheep under paid and abused workforce to do all the dirty work. There are a shadow community, they instead need to be treated as our brothers and sisters in Christ, we are called to welcome the stranger amount us. Put aside bigotry and start to look at the human cost and look for a human way of resolving the issues. this is what the bishops are calling for and indeed what ALL Catholics should be calling for. To do other wise, you are not answering Christ call.

Peace,
Deacon FAB
 
FAB said:
The blame still lies greatly with us. We talk out of both sides of our mouths, we “say” we want to close the borders, but then we want this cheep under paid and abused workforce to do all the dirty work.
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Who is we? The government that chooses what action to take regarding our laws, or the citizenry who has no choice but to obey said government or go to jail?
There are a shadow community, they instead need to be treated as our brothers and sisters in Christ, we are called to welcome the stranger amount us. Put aside bigotry and start to look at the human cost and look for a human way of resolving the issues. this is what the bishops are calling for and indeed what ALL Catholics should be calling for. To do other wise, you are not answering Christ call.
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This is assuming quite a lot about others whom you cannot know. I practice Christian charity on a daily basis and am adamantly against illegal immigration and using the power of the state to compel me in which manner I must practice that charity. Since you are a deacon, perhaps you might point me to the church document that says one nation must sacrifice itself for another, and/or that global wealth and income must be equally, through political means, be distributed among all.
 
FAB said:
The blame still lies greatly with us. We talk out of both sides of our mouths, we “say” we want to close the borders, but then we want this cheep under paid and abused workforce to do all the dirty work. There are a shadow community, they instead need to be treated as our brothers and sisters in Christ, we are called to welcome the stranger amount us. Put aside bigotry and start to look at the human cost and look for a human way of resolving the issues. this is what the bishops are calling for and indeed what ALL Catholics should be calling for. To do other wise, you are not answering Christ call.

Peace,
Deacon FAB
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I agree that we need to treat people with dignity. I believe that people now in the country illegally have forfeited their right to ever vote. There have to be consequences to actions. However, I agree on a path to *legality, *so taxes can be paid and life can be lived with dignity. That is not disrespecting anyone.

We are to called to welcome the stranger among us. However, the Church also says that we are allowed to protect our borders and that our country can exercise her sovereignty. So, those two have to cooexist, no?
 
Warrenton said:
But speeding is inherently dangerous. Bad driving accounts for, what is it? At least 30,000deaths each year in the US alone? How many injuries? Triple that number? How much property damage? Hundreds of millions of dollars?

Walking across a border is not inherently dangerous. Under your logic, speeding should be punished on a level with mayhem, or attempted malicious wounding. Twenty years in the penitentiary enough? Or is it too soft?

The answer to this question gets into the proper scope of limited government. Your location is Germany, and its case is different because Germany does not really recognize the principal of limited government like we do in the US.

Under a limited government, however, the laws should reflect the government’s intention and willingness to enforce them. Once the government refuses to enforce the law, or enacts other laws that make illegal conduct necessary, the superceded laws must be changed. The result is oppression through selective enforcement.

Our federal government is suing Arizona to prevent Arizona from protecting its borders. The federal government claims it has the exclusive right to legislate and enforce immigration laws. But we know it has wilfully failed to do so.

So the question is, what is wrong with expecting people to respect a law that the government itself does not respect? The easiest answer to the question: because it is hypocrisy.
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I haven’t updated my profile, I’ve been back in the US for two years now…so I don’t need a civics lecture from you…I’m well aware of why Arizona is bein sued. If the Federal government didn’t enforce any immigration laws you MIGHT have a case. The problem is that the government SELECTIVELY enforces the law.

It’s not a mere matter of crossing the border…every day an illegal is here they are breaking the law…taking jobs…using services that taxpayers flip the bill for…and some are violent criminals on top of that.
 
Who is we? The government that chooses what action to take regarding our laws, or the citizenry who has no choice but to obey said government or go to jail?
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We are the goverment.
This is assuming quite a lot about others whom you cannot know. I practice Christian charity on a daily basis and am adamantly against illegal immigration and using the power of the state to compel me in which manner I must practice that charity. Since you are a deacon, perhaps you might point me to the church document that says one nation must sacrifice itself for another, and/or that global wealth and income must be equally, through political means, be distributed among all.
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You need to read the social justice documents from the church issued by various popes, the first over 100 years ago and updated about each 30-40 years.
The document recognize a nations soverenty and right to regulate it’s borders, in a HUMAN way, respecting the rights of the individual. They are also very pointed that rich nations have a moral obligation to help poor nations. Also that every person has the right to make a livable wage to support their family. a right to affordable health care services, a right to freely practice their faith, a right to live without oppression, a right to have a decent place to live, as a family wihtout fear of persecution just to name a few. These are the teachings of the Catholic Church.
 
Yerusalyim said:
It’s not a mere matter of crossing the border…every day an illegal is here they are breaking the law…taking jobs…using services that taxpayers flip the bill for…and some are violent criminals on top of that.
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Do a search on the fact about immigration, it may be on USCCB site. You will find that these statements are for the most part false, and are political red meat. Such statements also fail to recongize our Catholic responsibilty to our brothers and sisters.
 
PaulinVA said:
I agree that we need to treat people with dignity. I believe that people now in the country illegally have forfeited their right to ever vote. There have to be consequences to actions. However, I agree on a path to *legality, *so taxes can be paid and life can be lived with dignity. That is not disrespecting anyone.

We are to called to welcome the stranger among us. However, the Church also says that we are allowed to protect our borders and that our country can exercise her sovereignty. So, those two have to cooexist, no?
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Yes, the two have to coexist. That is why it is important to listen to our bishops. There are solutions that would take our brothers and sister out of the shadows, allow them to enjoy a legal status, pay taxes and gain citizenship.
 
FAB said:
Yes, the two have to coexist. That is why it is important to listen to our bishops. There are solutions that would take our brothers and sister out of the shadows, allow them to enjoy a legal status, pay taxes and gain citizenship.
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I agree with everything but “gain citizenship”.

When you start your relationship with your new country by flaunting it’s basic laws of entry, that precludes the right to citizenship.

You also must remember that children in Mexican schools are taught that the southwest US - Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Colorado, Utah and California - really belong to Mexico and they should settle there to take it back.

Billions of dollars are taken out of our economy every year and sent to Mexico by the Mexicans in this country illegally. That is money that will never be spent in our economy. That would sure help around now, wouldn’t it?

I am not anti-immigrant but I believe that we should know and deal with all of the issues around immigration.,
 
FAB said:
Do a search on the fact about immigration, it may be on USCCB site. You will find that these statements are for the most part false, and are political red meat. Such statements also fail to recongize our Catholic responsibilty to our brothers and sisters.
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The statements are in no way false. Illegal aliens take jobs that Americans WILL DO…Illegal aliens use services they don’t pay for…ask any California emergency room…and some of them are very violent criminals…look at court records. HOW does this statement in anyway recognize responsibility as a Christian or a Catholic. It’s HIGHLY responsible to insist these people FOLLOW THE LAW. As the husband of a woman that entered this country legally, I’ve done a lot of research into this issue…I recommend you do the same…without the agenda lenses.
 
FAB said:
Yes, the two have to coexist. That is why it is important to listen to our bishops. There are solutions that would take our brothers and sister out of the shadows, allow them to enjoy a legal status, pay taxes and gain citizenship.
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Illegals can come out of the shadows and enjoy legal status the same way my wife did…by going through the LEGAL PROCESS already in existence. The bishops would use their time better if they would try to direct the Mexican government (and other governments) to reform themselves so as to encourage economic growth.
 
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