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PrayRosary
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Interesting comment. I never looked at it that way.
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FAB
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Yes there is another side. Families are being split on both sides of the border. Like many issues, to root causes have to be addressed. In this case the basis is poverty in Mexico and South American countries. I have traveled and walked both sides. The rich upper class and the poor who live in huts with dirt floors.For a broader perspective, you might want to read a book written by a Catholic priest entitled “The Immorality of Illegal Immigration,” by Fr. Pat Bascio, who spent time in Mexico speaking with the abandoned wives whose husbands had illegally immigrated north and never returned. Many of these men had left children in Mexico and the wives found out from mutual friends that some had “re-married” and were living new lives here in the States with additional children to support - the babies that had been born here.
I think I’ll save some of that compassion for the ones left behind.
The husbands who leave their families may have little choice. The reason they are not seen, could be because they find someone else, but also death, and the issue of not being able to travel back home.
Not having read the good fathers book, I will guess that he may not be condeming these men, but pointing out a further human issue with a broken immigration system.
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garysibio
Guest
It is misleading to imply that US immigration policy is breaking up families. It is not. If the parents are here illegally but have a child who is born in the USA and is, therefore, a legal citizen decide to leave the child here if they get deported, it is their decision. The government does not force them to leave the child in the USA. They are using their child to attempt to circumvent the law. That is despicable.Indeed, the people who are here are to be treated with compassion. Breaking up families in not the Christian way. Since we are not committed to closing the border, we must accept the consequences of our own ability to come up with either a legal plan or to close the border.
I’m all in favor of legal immigration but illegal immigrants hurt their own countrymen who opt to play by the rules. It is scandalous for any Catholic bishop to defend this behavior.
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pnewton
Guest
While you are entitled to your opinion, this one is not grounded in any facts. Anticatholicism is based primarily in attacking the Catholic Church for what is perceived to be Her teaching, not what she really teaches.I believe that the Church rejoices in the fall of America. I believe that the 33 Bishops who signed the present document are simply an extension of this attitude. I believe that the Church desires the imposition of a “new international order,” and does not want the United States to stand in the way. .
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pnewton
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What rules. Most illegal immigrants have no “rules” to play by. Immigration law is so strongly tiltled toward the wealthy and educated that the poor and common have zero path to come to citizenship. It is hard to complain about people not waiting their turn in line if there is no line to wait in.I’m all in favor of legal immigration but illegal immigrants hurt their own countrymen who opt to play by the rules.
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garysibio
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Please reread my comments. I said that the illegal immigrants are cheating those - the legal immigrants - who are following the rules.What rules. Most illegal immigrants have no “rules” to play by. Immigration law is so strongly tiltled toward the wealthy and educated that the poor and common have zero path to come to citizenship. It is hard to complain about people not waiting their turn in line if there is no line to wait in.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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So how far does this go to justify illegal behavior? Is someone who can not afford to go to college to get a well paying job justified in taking from a wealthy and educated person?What rules. Most illegal immigrants have no “rules” to play by. Immigration law is so strongly tiltled toward the wealthy and educated that the poor and common have zero path to come to citizenship. It is hard to complain about people not waiting their turn in line if there is no line to wait in.
I am just asking.
I think our immigration system is messed up. There needs to be some sort of guest worker program set up that would cover most of these who are here illegally but who do not have a criminal record in their country of origin. I agree that the system is skewed towards the well educated. I am against punishing the children who have no say in their parents bringing them to this country.
But I just think the justification that you seem to be applying here is not right either.
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pnewton
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I will not say that illegal behavior is justified. That is not what the bishops are saying. We can sympathize without justifying.So how far does this go to justify illegal behavior?
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Melvin
Guest
I appreciate your opinion in response. As I said in the OP, I was not presenting “facts,” but my beliefs based on those things I had observed and considered. And, I suppose that the charge of being an Anti-Catholic is an understandable emotional reaction…to my categorization of the Church’s attitude toward the United States.While you are entitled to your opinion, this one is not grounded in any facts. Anticatholicism is based primarily in attacking the Catholic Church for what is perceived to be Her teaching, not what she really teaches.
I must say, however, that I find it simply ludicrous that the Church seems to, in effect, advocate for national suicide, and then condemns citizens of our nation should they not want to go along with the program…I mean, boldly standing against the rampant racism in America, these were the 33 “Hispanic” Bishops of 33 American Dioceses…but hey, as I pointed out at the beginning, I’m somewhat of a simpleton…
God bless us all…
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pnewton
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I didn’t charge anyone with being an anti-Catholic. I only mean that anticatholicism is rooted in a false information about what the Church teaches. If I am wrong that this is not applicable here, I would welcome any link that shows the Church rejoices in the fall of the United States.And, I suppose that the charge of being an Anti-Catholic is an understandable emotional reaction…
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Then you should be specific about who on this thread, not about some random people in the public whom you believe are “fearful” (based on possibly your own assumptions, not evidence), and rather than generalizing, which is precisely what you did. Generalizing about other people’s emotions and motivations is a form of stereotyping.You may not have fear, but many do, I wasn’t specifically talking about you.
:tsktsk:
I just illustrated how you did. You have no knowledge of the sincerity and morality of individual poster’s positions, nor what motivates those positions. You merely assume based on prejudice and stereotyping – equating genuine social justice objections to the status quo on illegal immigration with “fear.” You have no basis for such an unjust accusation. I am one of the posters about whom you unjustly generalize and impugn motives to, because you make broad statements without differentiation.I not applying any prejudices or sterotypes.
And, without legal status, and thus without unionization, such jobs are not paths to a long-term living wage in the U.S. in the 21st century. Therefore, those here who continue to promote such a morally compromised situation (compromised on many levels) are not advocating for “justice” but for something quite different, it could be argued.The fact is that most of the jobs immigrants take are low skill jobs.
But to make a sustainable wage in the U.S. in 2011, you do need a level of literacy and fluency at the very least, and preferably more than that – given, again, that illegal status will jeopardize protections for those who need it most. The Cost of Living cannot be met any longer by low-level manual labor which operates “under the table.”You don’t need an education to chop up animals in a processing plant, to pick crops or to work as a laborer. It doesn’t take a lot of education to cut wood of drive nails in the constuction industry.
And some of us have worked on the same front line possibly far longer than you have. You wouldn’t know that. You just make assumptions and accuse.I have worked within the hispanic community in my ministry for years. My knowledge is first hand and not taken from any sterotype. You might say I am on the front line.
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Tigg
Guest
Seems you will defend anything, no matter how immoral if it pertains to the actions of illegal Mexican foreigners coming here. Being poor does not absolve one from living a moral life or justify hurt to one’s family and there is much worse world-wide poverty than what you will find in Mexico.Tigg;8771518:
Yes there is another side. Families are being split on both sides of the border. Like many issues, to root causes have to be addressed. In this case the basis is poverty in Mexico and South American countries.For a broader perspective, you might want to read a book written by a Catholic priest entitled “The Immorality of Illegal Immigration,” by Fr. Pat Bascio, who spent time in Mexico speaking with the abandoned wives whose husbands had illegally immigrated north and never returned. Many of these men had left children in Mexico and the wives found out from mutual friends that some had “re-married” and were living new lives here in the States with additional children to support - the babies that had been born here.
I think I’ll save some of that compassion for the ones left behind.
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Tigg
Guest
Well, this is fine, but I have many questions regarding that vague “teaching.” Here’s another question - just who are the bishops really listening to?The Amercan Bishops are asking all of us to take a serious look at the issue through the eyes of what is the answer through the teachings of Christ.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (in 2010) urged Catholic leaders to “instruct” their parishioners to support immigration reforms, saying clerics should “play a very major role” in supporting Democratic policies.
foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/06/pelosi-urges-catholic-church-play-major-role-immigration-overhaul/#ixzz1iV4Fdarl
This is merely the opinion of the bishops, who are not versed in economics or politics and I could post a dozen links that would refute this claim. We have no obligation to believe this and I don’t.1 The immigrants as the bishops stated have added to economy of this country, more than their cost.
I believe in obedience and I love my Church at all cost. But at this point, the larger question becomes, what are we being obedient to? A political ideology perhaps?8 my obediance is the my bishops, and my conscience is clear by following them.
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FAB
Guest
What I am defending are basic rights given to us by God and taught to us in Catholic Social Doctrine. There are no borders with God, and what is happening to His Children is violating His law, not mans. His law is the higher law. I was hungry and you feed me , homeless and you gave me shelter, a foreigner and you welcomed me.Seems you will defend anything, no matter how immoral if it pertains to the actions of illegal Mexican foreigners coming here. Being poor does not absolve one from living a moral life or justify hurt to one’s family and there is much worse world-wide poverty than what you will find in Mexico.
We who have been blessed have a greater responsibility to those who have less, in this country or another.
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FAB
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Then you should be specific about who on this thread
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Yet as pointed out earlier in this thread the Church teaches that countries have a right to set up its own laws and immigration systems.What I am defending are basic rights given to us by God and taught to us in Catholic Social Doctrine. There are no borders with God, and what is happening to His Children is violating His law, not mans. His law is the higher law. I was hungry and you feed me , homeless and you gave me shelter, a foreigner and you welcomed me.
We who have been blessed have a greater responsibility to those who have less, in this country or another.
You seem to be selective in what teaches you wish to follow
And how do you come by this knowledge? Have “most people” who object to this actually shared their deepest emotions and thoughts with you regrading this?I have found that most people who object to legal status of immigrants either have some fears or bigotries. Their bigotries are also often directed at the Church and it’s leaders. Their fears are often irrational. This is not so much sterotyping more than it it recongizing human nature.
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FAB
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Yet as pointed out earlier in this thread the Church teaches that countries have a right to set up its own laws and immigration systems.
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pnewton
Guest
In the Catechism we are taught that extreme need may allow and act that might otherwise be considered sinful to be viewed as morally acceptable.Being poor does not absolve one from living a moral life …
So why the poor might are still required to live a moral life, even taking the property of another may not be immoral in some cases.There is no theft if …refusal is contrary to reason and the universal destination of goods. This is the case in obvious and urgent necessity when the only way to provide for immediate, essential needs (food, shelter, clothing . . .) is to put at one’s disposal and use the property of others (CCC #2408)
The bishops are not judging illegal immigrants, either as moral or immoral, as much as trying to have us look at them from their perspective, not ours. Judgement of individual cases belongs to God alone.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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Can you point that out to me?In the Catechism we are taught that extreme need may allow and act that might otherwise be considered sinful to be viewed as morally acceptable.
I believe that the “extreme need” would only lessen the culpability, that is turn a grave sin into a lesser sin but it is still a sin none the less.
A moral evil is always a moral evil all that can change is the culpability of the one committing it.
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pnewton
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LOL I just did, CCC-2408. It is says it is not theft to take someone’s goods without their consent in certain cirumstances. Only God know where there is mortal sin, venial sin or no sin. In any case, as I too sin, I tend to prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt and not judge these immigrants who break the law. I have not been in their shoes.Can you point that out to me?
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