History of Islam. *QUESTION*

[eichenb2]

John 10:30

Jesus said:

“I and the Father are one”.

How differently are you now going to INTERPRET this?

It could be I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE…in purpose, not in substance

It would be, for example, when a teenager asks to attend a party of a friend. First he asks his mother (who says no). Then, he asks his father who says “your mother and I are one on this”

Or it could not be the true words of Jesus, i.e. corrupted

 

[eichenb2]

Well, no Muslim would ever admit he is the Son of God would they otherwise they would not be Muslim. Countless times in the Bible it says he is the Son of God. I wish you people would actually admit that this is true.

Why Mohammed was not a prophet:
One who claims to be a messenger of God is expected to live a saintly life. He must not be given to lust, he must not be a sexual pervert, and he must not be a rapist, a highway robber, a war criminal, a mass murderer or an assassin. One who claims to be a messenger of God must have a superior character. He must stand above the vices of the people of his time. Yet Muhammad’s life is that of a gangster godfather. He raided merchant caravans, looted innocent people, massacred entire male populations and enslaved the women and children. He raped the women captured in war after killing their husbands and told his followers that it is okay to have sex with their captives and their “right hand possessions” (Quran 33:50) He assassinated those who criticized him and executed them when he came to power and became de facto despot of Arabia. Muhammad was bereft of human compassion. He was an obsessed man with his dreams of grandiosity and could not forgive those who stood in his way. Muhammad was a narcissist like Hitler, Saddam or Stalin. He was astute and knew how to manipulate people, but his emotional intelligence was less evolved than that of a 6-year-old child. He simply could not feel the pain of others. He brutally massacred thousands of innocent people and pillaged their wealth. His ambitions were big and as a narcissist he honestly believed he is entitled to do as he pleased and commit all sorts of crimes and his evil deeds are justified.

Why Quran is not from God:
Muhammad produced no miracles and when pressed he claimed that his miracle is the Quran. Yet a cursory look at the Quran reveals that this book is full of errors. Quran is replete with scientific heresies, historic blunders, mathematical mistakes, logical absurdities, grammatical errors and ethical fallacies. It is badly compiled and it contradicts itself. There is nothing intelligent in this book let alone miraculous. Muhammad challenged people to produce a “Surah like it” or find an error therein, yet Muslims would kill anyone who dares to criticize it. In such a climate of hypocrisy and violence truth is the first casualty.

The Old Testament has even better stuff. Didn’t God tell the Jews to wipe out a whole population (man, woman, children, animals, etc) ??? If Jesus is part of the Trinity, that means Jesus is to blame too. Given that, he doesn’t appear to be a very nice fellow, either

 

[Reuben_J]

The Old Testament has even better stuff. Didn’t God tell the Jews to wipe out a whole population (man, woman, children, animals, etc) ??? If Jesus is part of the Trinity, that means Jesus is to blame too. Given that, he doesn’t appear to be a very nice fellow, either

You have completely changed your position compared to when you first appeared in this forum. I don’t know whether it was done on purpose or not but you have done your credibility lots of damage by doing that.

I don’t mind if you are a Muslim and disagree with us but to come here and masquerade as a Christian and then change halfway to be something else is not right. Even if we don’t see each other face to face in this virtual discussion, a minimum element of sincerity and honesty is required in this forum.

BTW the understanding of the OT is not what you make it to be and by the sound of your post you definitely do not understand the spirit and the thrust of the Bible.

You see how by being dishonest you can turn the discussion easily into an ugly spat. I would have more respect for you if you had came as a Muslim with a clear thought that’s different from us.

 

[planten]

It could be I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE…in purpose, not in substance

It would be, for example, when a teenager asks to attend a party of a friend. First he asks his mother (who says no). Then, he asks his father who says “your mother and I are one on this”

Or it could not be the true words of Jesus, i.e. corrupted

Exactly, that is what I was trying to tell. But I could not do it so well. Thanks for making us understand.

 

[planten]

You have completely changed your position compared to when you first appeared in this forum. I don’t know whether it was done on purpose or not but you have done your credibility lots of damage by doing that.

I don’t mind if you are a Muslim and disagree with us but to come here and masquerade as a Christian and then change halfway to be something else is not right. Even if we don’t see each other face to face in this virtual discussion, a minimum element of sincerity and honesty is required in this forum.

BTW the understanding of the OT is not what you make it to be and by the sound of your post you definitely do not understand the spirit and the thrust of the Bible.

You see how by being dishonest you can turn the discussion easily into an ugly spat. I would have more respect for you if you had came as a Muslim with a clear thought that’s different from us.

Please do not bash a good person. One can be a good christian too. The only thing required is to tell the truth. No need to be a Muslim. As a christian, I feel, one can be a good and truthful person. The bible is an open book. Every one is reading it and understanding it too.

But the meaning that soem friends are deriving are far from the real good things.

 

[eichenb2]

You have completely changed your position compared to when you first appeared in this forum. I don’t know whether it was done on purpose or not but you have done your credibility lots of damage by doing that.

I don’t mind if you are a Muslim and disagree with us but to come here and masquerade as a Christian and then change halfway to be something else is not right. Even if we don’t see each other face to face in this virtual discussion, a minimum element of sincerity and honesty is required in this forum.

BTW the understanding of the OT is not what you make it to be and by the sound of your post you definitely do not understand the spirit and the thrust of the Bible.

You see how by being dishonest you can turn the discussion easily into an ugly spat. I would have more respect for you if you had came as a Muslim with a clear thought that’s different from us.

Leave me and my opinion out of it! It is not about how I feel. It is about the facts! I have experience on both sides of the aisle and an trying to show people that it is not a simple as they would like. Remember…Ignorance is NOT bliss!

 

[eichenb2]

You have completely changed your position compared to when you first appeared in this forum. I don’t know whether it was done on purpose or not but you have done your credibility lots of damage by doing that.

I don’t mind if you are a Muslim and disagree with us but to come here and masquerade as a Christian and then change halfway to be something else is not right. Even if we don’t see each other face to face in this virtual discussion, a minimum element of sincerity and honesty is required in this forum.

BTW the understanding of the OT is not what you make it to be and by the sound of your post you definitely do not understand the spirit and the thrust of the Bible.

You see how by being dishonest you can turn the discussion easily into an ugly spat. I would have more respect for you if you had came as a Muslim with a clear thought that’s different from us.

Make us understand these…

“Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.” (Deuteronomy 13:15)

BTW, there are MANY more like this. The only way that you can completely avoid that the Judeo-Christian God commanded this, is to be a Marcionist and, ipso facto, a Heretic.

 

[eichenb2]

You have completely changed your position compared to when you first appeared in this forum. I don’t know whether it was done on purpose or not but you have done your credibility lots of damage by doing that.

I don’t mind if you are a Muslim and disagree with us but to come here and masquerade as a Christian and then change halfway to be something else is not right. Even if we don’t see each other face to face in this virtual discussion, a minimum element of sincerity and honesty is required in this forum.

BTW the understanding of the OT is not what you make it to be and by the sound of your post you definitely do not understand the spirit and the thrust of the Bible.

You see how by being dishonest you can turn the discussion easily into an ugly spat. I would have more respect for you if you had came as a Muslim with a clear thought that’s different from us.

Did the “Father” of Jesus command this? ---->

1 Samuel 15:2-3 (New International Version)

2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [a] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ "

 

[Reuben_J]

Leave me and my opinion out of it! It is not about how I feel. It is about the facts! I have experience on both sides of the aisle and an trying to show people that it is not a simple as they would like.

Of course your opinion matters if you want to be taken seriously. Even Christians differ among themselves on various issues. It’s just that you came as something that certainly not what you are now. To me that’s disgusting and dishonest and in my book that’s truly abominable a trait one should take in a forum.

Remember…Ignorance is NOT bliss!

This is definitely a whine of a child. The statement is unnecessary and unsolicited. You’d do better if you give some respect for posters here and that they are not as ignorant as you would like to think nor are you such a fantastic wise guy either.

 

[Reuben_J]

Did the “Father” of Jesus command this? ---->

1 Samuel 15:2-3 (New International Version)

2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [a] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ "

Christians do not have a problem with this verse and for that matter the entire books in the OT if understood in the proper perspective. Anyway this has been explained many times before. As I said you need to know the spirit and the thrust of the message of the Bible and not to take excerpt in isolation without knowing Christianity theology. Of course if you have problem with this, that’s entirely your prerogative. If you want Christian’s perspective you have to ask them.

I will gladly discuss that with you had you come honestly as an ignorant Muslim about Christianity.

 

[Reuben_J]

Please do not bash a good person. One can be a good christian too. The only thing required is to tell the truth. No need to be a Muslim. As a christian, I feel, one can be a good and truthful person. The bible is an open book. Every one is reading it and understanding it too.

But the meaning that soem friends are deriving are far from the real good things.

Planten, oh Planten. At least you came clean as an Ahmadi Muslim though the peaceful part of you has been broken and transgressed many times by your own actions and response here. Frankly I don’t mind about you; your differences with us have never been any problem considering you’re not one of us. Besides you have been quite entertaining here.

 

[c659smith]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

God created heaven for those who worhip Him without taking other deities besides Him. And Muslims don’t take any diety besides one God .

.

Muhammed & Jesus (pbut) were slaves & Messengers of God Almighty. Both of them will be in heaven by the mercy & will of God .

Surah/ Chapter 9. Repentance, Dispensation

They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah.

there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him). ( Quran ; 9:31)

But you are still not telling me how you get to heaven?

Yes I know you give God worship and Praise but is the path there?

Has there been a Moslem since Mohammed that entered heaven?

 

[Prime]

It could be I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE…in purpose, not in substance

It would be, for example, when a teenager asks to attend a party of a friend. First he asks his mother (who says no). Then, he asks his father who says “your mother and I are one on this”

Or it could not be the true words of Jesus, i.e. corrupted

Not the substance.
Corrupted.
Sounds like comments from one who has run out of logical arguments and cannot refute anymore.
But then I guess that would be expecting too much.

 

[planten]

J C, it is compulsory according to the Quran to give true witness, even if it be against the close relatives. Is that not enough and equal to your statement “You shall not give false witness.?” What youhave stated a is half sentence, half truth. Your God commanded people not to give false witness. What will you do?

It did not tell you what to do. Do not give false witness. But what to do? Did it tell you what to do? Nothing.

So how do you like the instruction of the Quran to the Muslims (and all mankind) to bear true witness under all costs, even if it be against your close kith and kin. So, please be happy and give true witness all the time.

 

[chrisse]

J C, it is compulsory according to the Quran to give true witness, even if it be against the close relatives. Is that not enough and equal to your statement “You shall not give false witness.?” What youhave stated a is half sentence, half truth. Your God commanded people not to give false witness. What will you do?

It did not tell you what to do. Do not give false witness. But what to do? Did it tell you what to do? Nothing.

So how do you like the instruction of the Quran to the Muslims (and all mankind) to bear true witness under all costs, even if it be against your close kith and kin. So, please be happy and give true witness all the time.

Why do you insist on telling only part of the truth? Is it because lying is permissable in Islam under certain circumstances :-

“He who settles disgreements between people to bring about good or says something commendable is not a liar.
…
When it is possible to achieve such an aim (praiseworthy aim) by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N: ie when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory.”
The Reliance of the Traveller, page 745

Now, spreading Islam as a religion of justice, fairness and peace to non-believers would be a praiseworthy aim. Spreading Islam is obligatory. Do you agree?

 

[hamba2han]

When someones intentionally conceals the truth, is this not an act of dishonesty?

Christians are indeed saying that Jesus (pbuh) intentionally concealed his alleged divinity in order to protect himself from his enemies.

Are Christians therefore saying that concealment of the truth is permitted in Christianity if the end result justifies such an act of dishonesty?

 

[eichenb2]

Why do you insist on telling only part of the truth? Is it because lying is permissable in Islam under certain circumstances :-

“He who settles disgreements between people to bring about good or says something commendable is not a liar.
…
When it is possible to achieve such an aim (praiseworthy aim) by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N: ie when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory.”
The Reliance of the Traveller, page 745

Now, spreading Islam as a religion of justice, fairness and peace to non-believers would be a praiseworthy aim. Spreading Islam is obligatory. Do you agree?

All people do this, even Christians! You should watch the movie Liar! Liar! with Jim Carrey. Islam, whether you like it or not (even some Muslims do not under stand this), is about principles. To be blindly committed to an extrinsic act without observing higher principles is absurd. In the example that you gave, the intention could be to bring about reconciliation between friends or family. Do you think that is bad???

 

[eichenb2]

Of course your opinion matters if you want to be taken seriously. Even Christians differ among themselves on various issues. It’s just that you came as something that certainly not what you are now. To me that’s disgusting and dishonest and in my book that’s truly abominable a trait one should take in a forum.

This is definitely a whine of a child. The statement is unnecessary and unsolicited. You’d do better if you give some respect for posters here and that they are not as ignorant as you would like to think nor are you such a fantastic wise guy either.

Could I give the kind of respect you give me?

 

[eichenb2]

Christians do not have a problem with this verse and for that matter the entire books in the OT if understood in the proper perspective. Anyway this has been explained many times before. As I said you need to know the spirit and the thrust of the message of the Bible and not to take excerpt in isolation without knowing Christianity theology. Of course if you have problem with this, that’s entirely your prerogative. If you want Christian’s perspective you have to ask them.

I will gladly discuss that with you had you come honestly as an ignorant Muslim about Christianity.

With all due respect, I think it is you that is disrespectful and ignorant. I understand Christian theology probably better that you. I am aware that there are Christian apologies for these type of verses. You and other Christians should understand, though, that you have to respond to this. Especially if you are going to claim that Islam is so barbaric and aweful. The God of the Bible is calling for genocide and even infanticide. You can not squirm out of this by claiming that this was all leading up to the Messiah. The bottom line is that the God of the Bible commanded Jewish leaders to infanticide! I guess that they could have explained to a mother, as they murdered her children, to take heart as this was all necessary to hasten the Messianic age.

 

[Sam_777]

Why do you insist on telling only part of the truth? Is it because lying is permissable in Islam under certain circumstances :-

“He who settles disgreements between people to bring about good or says something commendable is not a liar.
…
When it is possible to achieve such an aim (praiseworthy aim) by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N: ie when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory.”
The Reliance of the Traveller, page 745

Sahih Muslim, Book 032, Number 6303:

“Humaid b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. 'Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum daughter of 'Uqba b. Abu Mu’ait, and she was one amongst the first emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him), as saying that she heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them).”

(E) (A)