History of the Roman Catholic Church

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Let me ask you this. Why would God commend anybody not to bow down to anything?

Question not answered.

I’m going to assume you meant command rather then commend. And the reason God commanded that no one should bow down to anything is because bowing down to anything was and is considered by God to place oneself into utter submission to them. God is the only one that we should be in utter submission to. We submit ourselves to God through our worship, our adoration and our devotion. No one else should have this honor, that is why He commands us to “have no other gods before me.” It is why Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego refused to bow down to the Babylonian statue. It wasn’t a god, but it was an image that Nebuchanezzar considered worthy of worship. So, do all images that are bowed down to have to be considered to be gods or is it that God just doesn’t wanting us to do it period?

The Miracle I can easily brodcast on the internet, but I dont know if my dad would be comfortable with it. It was a picture with my dad and my little brother, while behind them was my Mary Statue. And a beam of light reflects on Marys head and points to a crucifix that was on the wall. You cant see the crucifix on the picture, but it was on the wall when I was still living in America. Miracles like this happen frequently in the Universal Church, its not to trick us, its too increase our faith. Like I said, statues are not devine, they are not our gods, what else do you want me to confess??

What makes this a miracle? It sounds more like a reflection of like that coincidentally bounced from one object to another. These things happen all the time and are mistaken for miracles, ask a preist, they will probably tell you the samething.

There is a reason why he punished those that bowed down, and grants us miracles when WE bow down.

I see, so he punished Buddists and Hinduist and other religions other then the CC for bowing down to representations of their great leaders in their efforts to commune to God but he rewards members of the CC when they do it. Is God a hypocrit (sic)? Please, do not put God in this position, for he is just and his ways are true. You have yet to answer my question as to who, what, when and where the CC instituted the use of statuary in their worship of God. (Please also note I did not say “Worship of statuary”)

Yes,we ask for their intercession, no big deal.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Ok,
Not understanding what you are getting at here. I was going on the asumption from some non-Catholic Christians that we pray to objects and not to God. It is perception.

Do you pray to others besides God? What did Jesus command concerning prayer? Using statuary as a means to “visualize” a certain individual, including Christ, was not used by the Apostles. Why would they need to make an image of Christ when they knew he was alive and could be contacted directly through prayer? The Old Testament patriarchs, judges, kings and prophets did not need statuary to imagine God nor to communicate with God. In addition, they KNEW God would have been displeased with them had they done so as he was displeased with those that did bow down and pray before statuary. Think this through, would God change his view of bowing down and praying before statuary now? And if so, how are we to know this, wouldn’t he have told us as important as this issue is? Yet, there is nothing to tell us that we are to do this, except that which men have told us, claiming, in contradiction to God’s preserved word, that they have the authority to do so. Sorry, this does’nt wash.

If you look at a picture of a non-Catholic Christian praying while hugging a bible, before the Cross, his Pastor, or prayer leader, (and bowing towards it) what do you see?

Personally, for me, I see people bowing down before an idol. The cross is just as much an image of a thing as anyother image and therefore, though the cross, figuratively speaking, represents what Christ did for us, becomes an idol when it is bowed down to and prayed before. They would be better off not having one in their church. As for bowing down before a Pastor or prayer leader, I do not think they are bowing down before them but rather bowing down with them, unless the others remain standing to which I would object because then they are being given honor which no man deserves.

If you see a Catholic do the same, what do you see? So if a Catholic is praying before the statue of Jesus, or anyone of our great Saints, the Cross. As well our Pope (head Pastor) What do you see? How can/why do they assume we are praying to the stone, or wood, paper, or flesh? I don’t recall any of my prayers starting off with “Oh wood, paper, stone, or flesh I give thanks to………”

I have already stated my opinion on this issue above. I cannot agree on one point and then not agree on another without compromising my position. I stand firm.

Now if you have issues with asking those who have gone before us (Church Triumphant) to pray with me (a prayer partner in high places) Just as we ask our friends, family, etc to pray with/for us…Oh well….

You believe you can ask those who dwell in heaven, and I do not agree that ALL those that the CC claim to be in heaven are there but there are a few, to pray for you. This fine for you, however, is it proper for the use of statuary to represent these “Saints”? The big question, are the statues that represent these Saints accurate depictions of these individuals? Are the statues of Jesus accurate depictions of what Jesus looked like or are they depictions of what the artist thinks Jesus looked like? We have statuary from ancient times that are accurate depictions of rulers and monarchs because they had the money and the power to have these things produced, but what of the Aposltes and Jesus and Mary and all the others? I’ll ask you the same question I asked Ben, When was the use of statuary in the CC implemented, by whom and where did the statuary come from? The answers with reveal whether the CC is the true Church, it does not matter that it can trace its beginnings all the way to Christ, technically, every church can in one way or another.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

Whats funny is youre not even adressing the subject at hand, if you believe what the Catholic Church is doing something wrong, while your church is doing the right thing, why dont you compare the two histories. I mean this is what this thread is supposed to be about

if you want to talk about the CC and idols, I suggest to open another thread, because honestly…this happens all the time. A Catholic asks a simple question the protestant changes the subject. Let us see (through history) which Church traces back to the apostles. Is it the Adventists, or the CC. Why don`t you write no history about your church? Who made it? When was it made? Why was it made? Do you honestly blieve is it the church that Jesus established at 33 AD? and so on.

I have no propblem replying to your post but this isn`t the thread to do it.

ps- you quoted me on things that I didn´t even say. Not that Im mad or anything, just wanted to point that out to you.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Whats funny is youre not even adressing the subject at hand, if you believe what the Catholic Church is doing something wrong, while your church is doing the right thing, why dont you compare the two histories. I mean this is what this thread is supposed to be about

I am not trying to show that the CC is doing anything wrong. What I am trying to show is that the CC might possible also be a break off from the original Church that Christ founding. To do this it must be show when, where and how this happened.

if you want to talk about the CC and idols, I suggest to open another thread, because honestly…this happens all the time. A Catholic asks a simple question the protestant changes the subject. Let us see (through history) which Church traces back to the apostles. Is it the Adventists, or the CC. Why don`t you write no history about your church? Who made it? When was it made? Why was it made? Do you honestly blieve is it the church that Jesus established at 33 AD? and so on.

The subject that was proposed for this thread is more complicated than you seem to realize. As I have stated before, the official PAPAL position concerning the Protestant churches is that these churches are Daughters of the CC and as such, logic dictates, that these churches have as much legitimate claim to church linage as does the CC. It does not matter that these churches do not officially recognize the Pope as their spiritual leader. What matters is what the official Papal stance is concerning these churches. Your claim of legitimate linage back to the foundational formation of the Church assumes that the CC is that original Church. The discussion centers on that claim, as well as to the legitimate linage claim. To determine if this is true than I again ask, When, Where and on who’s authority was the use of statuary within the Church that Christ created approved? And to add to this, what other forms of worship were ADDED and by what authority? You accuse me of taking this off topic but these things are vital to the topic if we are to determine the truth.

I have no propblem replying to your post but this isn`t the thread to do it.

If you have no problems with replying to my post then why haven’t you answered the key questions posed to you? Don’t skirt around the matter. As I have stated, these issues are germain to the subject at hand and cannot, in all honesty, be ignored.

ps- you quoted me on things that I didn´t even say. Not that Im mad or anything, just wanted to point that out to you.

Excuse me, but every quote that I have posted by you are directly from your own posts, I have not altered any of them except where perhaps spelling may have occurred, I really don’t remember doing this but it is possible. If I have please show me where and when it was done. I try to be very congnasent (sic) in being straight forward with other people’s posts and hope they would be the same with mine, although I don’t find this the case all the time, unfortunately.

 

[twb1621]

If you also read…

The warning you initially refer to above was also before the Jews refused to accept Jesus and salvation was opened to all…
You refer to idols but for something to be an idol it must be idolized… The most important response I presented you, you missed and it is the one I most greatly seek your response to. It follows;

First off, you should realize we do not kneel or worship the images. We kneel at times in prayer before the Tabernacle, which houses the Eucharist, the body of Christ. For those who refuse to recognize the Eucharist yet claim to be Christians it is disgraceful, as the apostles themselves shared the sacrament of the Eucharist with the faithful as the core of Christianity. As far as worshiping the statues or images, they are not worshipped but serve as an image to reflect and meditate with in remembrance of the events of the Holy ones of Christ. Some look upon them in reflection and others do not but they do not hold any significance as far as salvation or worship. We do not stand there rubbing them until they smoke and praise them begging for miracles as worship would entail. In fact, to judge these images in the sense you suggest would mean everyone who has any image including photos would be condemned under this commandment. If a mother holds a picture of her son who has died and kissed the picture, does she then love the picture as her son? When you miss someone and reflect on an image of him or her, have you replaced him or her with the image? We must be realistic.

The technical response for those who might need this…
God prohibits in the Ten Commandments the making of idols and the worshipping of them: “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them…for I the Lord your God am a jealous God” (Exod. 20:4-5). At first instance it would appear that this commandment imposes an absolute prohibition against the making and use of all images per se. However, a thorough examination of the Old Testament precludes such an interpretation, as this would necessitate God prohibiting what He allows and commands elsewhere, especially concerning the Temple of Jerusalem itself. It follows that if the Commandments prohibited the making of any images whatsoever, Protestants ought to remove and destroy all their statues of George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and even Mount Rushmore, as well as burning all their pictures of relatives and friends. Common sense though tells us that such would be an absurd outcome. The Catholic doctrine on the veneration of images was fully outlined by the Second Council of Nicaea in 787 AD: “Proceeding as it were on the royal road and following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers, and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition is of the Holy Spirit which dwells in the Church), we define with all care and exactitude, that the venerable and holy images are set up in just the same way as the figure of the precious and life-giving cross; painted images, and those in mosaic and those of other suitable materials, in the holy churches of God, on holy vessels and vestments, on walls and in pictures, in houses and by the roadsides; images of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ and of our undefiled Lady, the holy God-bearer, and of the honorable angels, and of saintly and holy men. For the more frequently these are observed by means of such representations, so much the more will the beholders be aroused to recollect the originals and to long after them, and to pay the images the tribute of an embrace and a reverence of honor, not to pay to them the actual worship which is according to our faith, and which is proper only to the divine nature: but as to the figure of the venerable and life-giving cross, and to the holy Gospels and the other sacred monuments, so to those images to accord the honor of incense and oblation of lights, as it has been the pious custom of antiquity. For the honor paid to the image passes to its original, and he that honors an image honors in it the person depicted thereby.” The real purpose of the commandment is to steer the people of God away from idolatry, that is, the worship of any false god. Consider the following passages: “For they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods; then the anger of the Lord would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly. But thus shall you deal with them: you shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire” (Deut. 7:4-5). “And the people of Israel did secretly against the Lord their God things that were not right. They built for themselves high places at all their towns, from watchtower to fortified city; they set up for themselves pillars and Asherim on every high hill and under every green tree; and there they burned incense on all the high places, as the nations did whom the Lord carried away before them. And they did wicked things, provoking the Lord to anger, and they served idols, of which the Lord had said to them, ‘You shall not do this’” (2 Kgs. 17:9-12). God obviously abhors idolatry; however, in the same Scriptures we see the Jews making statues for legitimate religious purposes, and under God’s command: “And the Lord said to Moses, Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live” (Num. 21:8-9).

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I am not trying to show that the CC is doing anything wrong. What I am trying to show is that the CC might possible also be a break off from the original Church that Christ founding. To do this it must be show when, where and how this happened.

The subject that was proposed for this thread is more complicated than you seem to realize. As I have stated before, the official PAPAL position concerning the Protestant churches is that these churches are Daughters of the CC and as such, logic dictates, that these churches have as much legitimate claim to church linage as does the CC. It does not matter that these churches do not officially recognize the Pope as their spiritual leader. What matters is what the official Papal stance is concerning these churches. Your claim of legitimate linage back to the foundational formation of the Church assumes that the CC is that original Church. The discussion centers on that claim, as well as to the legitimate linage claim. To determine if this is true than I again ask, When, Where and on who’s authority was the use of statuary within the Church that Christ created approved? And to add to this, what other forms of worship were ADDED and by what authority? You accuse me of taking this off topic but these things are vital to the topic if we are to determine the truth.

Hi Sabbath Keeper,

It does matter that the “Daughters” do not recognize The Pope as the “father” of the “house”…The Church. Because even though they are daughters, they have moved out of the “house” and seperated themselves. A “house” divided against itself cannot stand. The family of God, The house of God, The Church, has daughters who have left home, and no longer recognize their “father” as their “father”.

And Yes I understand that Jesus is The Head of The Church, and that God is our Father. However, Jesus gave authority to His Church for its life and work on this earth until He comes again.

The daughters only have legitimate claim to being members of the family lineage when they return home and unite with the rest of the family…just as the prodigal did when he realized his rebelious ways were not leading him in a good direction, and he realized that his home was not so bad after all.

Artwork has no effect upon the lineage of the True Church…but Apostolic succession does.

Here is something I shared with you in another thread…“A Historical Dare To Protestants”…regarding why the daughters are still part of the family, but have chosen to live apart from the family, and to other Catholics out there please feel free to correct any errors I may have stated:

**Hi Sabbath Keeper,

I haven’t talked with you in a while…nice to see you!!

You were responding to Benjanmin8o8, but it appears that you are addressing me, so I’ll talk with you!

Martin Luther was an ordained priest. Priests have certain authority given to them by God, through His grace, and through the Bishops laying hands on them. Bishops have the authority to ordain priests.

Priests do not have the authority to ordain priests. Therefore, when Luther left the church, he did not have the authority to ordain anyone to the ministry of the priesthood. At that point in time he ended any Apostolic Succession he was part of when he was in communion with The Church. I will assume that you know the New Testament books and scriptures that outline the authority of The Church, because SDAs follow the formula similarly…even though they are out of the direct line of Apostolic Succession.

It is the laying on of hands by ordained Bishops, when ordaining other Bishops, which passes on Apostolic lineage, not just passing on one’s knowledge as in the case of Luther. And this lineage is preserved and recorded for all ordained Bishops from our present day back to Peter and the other Apostles.

The Church recognizes those other churches not in communion with The Church as “Daughters”, family, of The Church who perform valid Christian baptisms. A valid baptism is one that uses water and baptizes in the Name of The Father, and of The Son, and of The Holy Spirit.

It is when a person is validly baptized that he or she becomes a member of The Church, the One True Church, even if they are not in full communion with The Church.

The Church recognizes that and we should all pray to be united in full communion!**

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

The warning you initially refer to above was also before the Jews refused to accept Jesus and salvation was opened to all…
You refer to idols but for something to be an idol it must be idolized… The most important response I presented you, you missed and it is the one I most greatly seek your response to. It follows;

First off, you should realize we do not kneel or worship the images. We kneel at times in prayer before the Tabernacle, which houses the Eucharist, the body of Christ.

I would just like to clarify a few points for Sabbath Keeper,

Bowing to, or before someone, whether a man or an angel or an image, in the Bible at times means something other than worship.

It is a very sincere and complete act of showing respect. For example:

**Genesis 18:1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
3 He said, "If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by.

Genesis 23:6 “Sir, listen to us. You are a mighty prince among us. Bury your dead in the choicest of our tombs. None of us will refuse you his tomb for burying your dead.” 7 Then Abraham rose and bowed down before the people of the land, the Hittites. 8 He said to them, "If you are willing to let me bury my dead, then listen to me and intercede with Ephron son of Zohar on my behalf

Genesis 27:28 May God give you of heaven’s dew
and of earth’s richness—
an abundance of grain and new wine.
29 May nations serve you
and peoples bow down to you.
Be lord over your brothers,
and may the sons of your mother bow down to you.
May those who curse you be cursed
and those who bless you be blessed."
30 After Isaac finished blessing him and Jacob had scarcely left his father’s presence, his brother Esau came in from hunting.

Genesis 33:2 He put the maidservants and their children in front, Leah and her children next, and Rachel and Joseph in the rear. 3 He himself went on ahead and bowed down to the ground seven times as he approached his brother. 4 But Esau ran to meet Jacob and embraced him; he threw his arms around his neck and kissed him. And they wept.

Genesis 33:6 Then the maidservants and their children approached and bowed down. 7 Next, Leah and her children came and bowed down. Last of all came Joseph and Rachel, and they too bowed down. 8 Esau asked, “What do you mean by all these droves I met?” “To find favor in your eyes, my lord,” he said.

Exodus 18:6 Jethro had sent word to him, “I, your father-in-law Jethro, am coming to you with your wife and her two sons.”
7 So Moses went out to meet his father-in-law and bowed down and kissed him. They greeted each other and then went into the tent. 8 Moses told his father-in-law about everything the LORD had done to Pharaoh and the Egyptians for Israel’s sake and about all the hardships they had met along the way and how the LORD had saved them.

Ruth 2:9 Watch the field where the men are harvesting, and follow along after the girls. I have told the men not to touch you. And whenever you are thirsty, go and get a drink from the water jars the men have filled." 10 At this, she bowed down with her face to the ground. She exclaimed, “Why have I found such favor in your eyes that you notice me—a foreigner?” 11 Boaz replied, "I’ve been told all about what you have done for your mother-in-law since the death of your husband—how you left your father and mother and your homeland and came to live with a people you did not know before.

1 Samuel 25:22 May God deal with David, [a] be it ever so severely, if by morning I leave alive one male of all who belong to him!" 23 When Abigail saw David, she quickly got off her donkey and bowed down before David with her face to the ground. 24 She fell at his feet and said: "My lord, let the blame be on me alone. Please let your servant speak to you; hear what your servant has to say.

1 Kings 18:6 So they divided the land they were to cover, Ahab going in one direction and Obadiah in another. 7 As Obadiah was walking along, Elijah met him. Obadiah recognized him, bowed down to the ground, and said, “Is it really you, my lord Elijah?” 8 “Yes,” he replied. “Go tell your master, ‘Elijah is here.’ **”

See (con’t 2)

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

(con’t 2)

When I was a kid, we were still taught to bow and curtsey as ways of showing respect to the oppoisite sex…being gentlemen and ladies.

To bow before a statue of a saint is not worshipping that saint, it is a way of showing respect. Saints are not confused as to be God by Catholics.

A big difference between the Adventist Church and Catholics is what comprises The Church. Adventists believe that the saints are dead and asleep, except for Moses and Elijah. Catholics believe that saints (all of those known by The Church and the great unkown multitudes of saints described in the Book of Revelation) are in Heaven and are still members of The Church…active members in fact, doing the work of The Church in the capacity in which they can, given where they are, just as we on earth do the work of The Church in the capacity which we can, given where we are…but we are all, those in heaven and on earth, members of The One True Church.

As an Adventist, I, and others, were always asking each other to pray for this or that prayer request. And as an Adventist I prayed for others and others prayed for me. If I was in need of something, or working on a project in which I needed another member’s help, I would ask them if they would help me. Likewise, they would ask me if I would help them.

This is all that I do as a Catholic when I pray (talk to) a Saint for their prayers and whatever assistance they can provide, or when I pray (talk to) a member of my church for their prayers and whatever assistance they can provide. All are members of The Church, and all are working their part in God’s plan of salvation. We all help each other. We all have different areas of talents and expertise, so it is only natural to ask those for help who are most gifted in the areas that require help.

As an Adventist, I bowed my head and prayed with the congregation at Camp Meeting. The stage was adorned with all manner of plants and flowers…yet this in no way implied that I was a pagan nature worshipper bowing to plants and flowers. I also knelt before other Adventists and washed their feet. But that in no way meant I was worshipping that member. It was about respect, humility, and love.

As a Catholic, I at times kneel, sit, or stand, before a picture, statue, or prayer of a Saint with whom I want to discuss a need for assistance. It does not mean that I worship an inanimate object, nor the person it represents. It is merely respectul communion and communication between two members of The Body of Christ…His Church.

I could always understand why Adventists thought praying to Saints was idolatry, because they didn’t believe any of those Saints were in heaven.

I could never understand why all the other protestant churches thought it was idolatry, because most of them believe you go to heaven when you die…and most of them believe in intercessory prayer for and by their own church members.

I hope this helps clarify just a little.

God bless all!!!

 

[twb1621]

(con’t 2)

When I was a kid, we were still taught to bow and curtsey as ways of showing respect to the oppoisite sex…being gentlemen and ladies.

To bow before a statue of a saint is not worshipping that saint, it is a way of showing respect. Saints are not confused as to be God by Catholics.

A big difference between the Adventist Church and Catholics is what comprises The Church. Adventists believe that the saints are dead and asleep, except for Moses and Elijah. Catholics believe that saints (all of those known by The Church and the great unkown multitudes of saints described in the Book of Revelation) are in Heaven and are still members of The Church…active members in fact, doing the work of The Church in the capacity in which they can, given where they are, just as we on earth do the work of The Church in the capacity which we can, given where we are…but we are all, those in heaven and on earth, members of The One True Church.

As an Adventist, I, and others, were always asking each other to pray for this or that prayer request. And as an Adventist I prayed for others and others prayed for me. If I was in need of something, or working on a project in which I needed another member’s help, I would ask them if they would help me. Likewise, they would ask me if I would help them.

This is all that I do as a Catholic when I pray (talk to) a Saint for their prayers and whatever assistance they can provide, or when I pray (talk to) a member of my church for their prayers and whatever assistance they can provide. All are members of The Church, and all are working their part in God’s plan of salvation. We all help each other. We all have different areas of talents and expertise, so it is only natural to ask those for help who are most gifted in the areas that require help.

As an Adventist, I bowed my head and prayed with the congregation at Camp Meeting. The stage was adorned with all manner of plants and flowers…yet this in no way implied that I was a pagan nature worshipper bowing to plants and flowers. I also knelt before other Adventists and washed their feet. But that in no way meant I was worshipping that member. It was about respect, humility, and love.

As a Catholic, I at times kneel, sit, or stand, before a picture, statue, or prayer of a Saint with whom I want to discuss a need for assistance. It does not mean that I worship an inanimate object, nor the person it represents. It is merely respectul communion and communication between two members of The Body of Christ…His Church.

I could always understand why Adventists thought praying to Saints was idolatry, because they didn’t believe any of those Saints were in heaven.

I could never understand why all the other protestant churches thought it was idolatry, because most of them believe you go to heaven when you die…and most of them believe in intercessory prayer for and by their own church members.

I hope this helps clarify just a little.

God bless all!!!

Thank you Patrick. For people who attempt to use such an archaic assumption in this day and age is ridiculous as the Catholic Church using images to worship is like seeking employment, fighting dragons. The Catholic Faith has never idolized images and if someone cannot understand that images including those they possess of family members or heroes or events or whatever are nothing more than objects utilized to reflect past events or person of, they have a serious issue with reality. I again refer to post #182.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

I am not trying to show that the CC is doing anything wrong. What I am trying to show is that the CC might possible also be a break off from the original Church that Christ founding. To do this it must be show when, where and how this happened.

In order to do that, you’ll have to show Jesus is a liar since He promised to be with His Church from the minute He made the promise to the end of the world. He also said the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. If your hypothosis is correct, the gates of hell have prevailed and Jesus is a liar again.

As I have stated before, the official PAPAL position concerning the Protestant churches is that these churches are Daughters of the CC and as such, logic dictates, that these churches have as much legitimate claim to church linage as does the CC.

It is risible that you accept the authority of the pope in an off-the-cuff remark designed to foster better relations with the various sects of Christianity, but deny his authority where it is most applicable — as the Vicar of Christ.

Your conclusion above is not correct. Apostolic Succession resides with the Catholic Church, East and West only.

It does not matter that these churches do not officially recognize the Pope as their spiritual leader. What matters is what the official Papal stance is concerning these churches.

It’s your opinion, and nothing more, that it doesn’t matter that the Christian sects reject the authority of the Lord’s vicar on earth. As I said, what you’re calling the “official Papal stance” was in no way an official anything. It was a casual remark aimed at political correctness and ecumenism, which has gotten a little out of hand, as we can see, even at the highest levels of the Church.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Thank you Patrick. For people who attempt to use such an archaic assumption in this day and age is ridiculous as the Catholic Church using images to worship is like seeking employment, fighting dragons. The Catholic Faith has never idolized images and if someone cannot understand that images including those they possess of family members or heroes or events or whatever are nothing more than objects utilized to reflect past events or person of, they have a serious issue with reality. I again refer to post #182.

I think post #182 above should be reposted and in larger type…it is a very important post for this discussion.

God bless all!!!

 

[twb1621]

as requested…

To Sabbath Keeper

The warning you initially refer to above was also before the Jews refused to accept Jesus and salvation was opened to all…
You refer to idols but for something to be an idol it must be idolized… The most important response I presented you, you missed and it is the one I most greatly seek your response to. It follows;

First off, you should realize we do not kneel or worship the images. We kneel at times in prayer before the Tabernacle, which houses the Eucharist, the body of Christ. For those who refuse to recognize the Eucharist yet claim to be Christians it is disgraceful, as the apostles themselves shared the sacrament of the Eucharist with the faithful as the core of Christianity. As far as worshiping the statues or images, they are not worshipped but serve as an image to reflect and meditate with in remembrance of the events of the Holy ones of Christ. Some look upon them in reflection and others do not but they do not hold any significance as far as salvation or worship. We do not stand there rubbing them until they smoke and praise them begging for miracles as worship would entail. In fact, to judge these images in the sense you suggest would mean everyone who has any image including photos would be condemned under this commandment. If a mother holds a picture of her son who has died and kissed the picture, does she then love the picture as her son? When you miss someone and reflect on an image of him or her, have you replaced him or her with the image? We must be realistic.

The technical response for those who might need this…
God prohibits in the Ten Commandments the making of idols and the worshipping of them: “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them…for I the Lord your God am a jealous God” (Exod. 20:4-5). At first instance it would appear that this commandment imposes an absolute prohibition against the making and use of all images per se. However, a thorough examination of the Old Testament precludes such an interpretation, as this would necessitate God prohibiting what He allows and commands elsewhere, especially concerning the Temple of Jerusalem itself. It follows that if the Commandments prohibited the making of any images whatsoever, Protestants ought to remove and destroy all their statues of George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and even Mount Rushmore, as well as burning all their pictures of relatives and friends. Common sense though tells us that such would be an absurd outcome. The Catholic doctrine on the veneration of images was fully outlined by the Second Council of Nicaea in 787 AD: “Proceeding as it were on the royal road and following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers, and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition is of the Holy Spirit which dwells in the Church), we define with all care and exactitude, that the venerable and holy images are set up in just the same way as the figure of the precious and life-giving cross; painted images, and those in mosaic and those of other suitable materials, in the holy churches of God, on holy vessels and vestments, on walls and in pictures, in houses and by the roadsides; images of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ and of our undefiled Lady, the holy God-bearer, and of the honorable angels, and of saintly and holy men. For the more frequently these are observed by means of such representations, so much the more will the beholders be aroused to recollect the originals and to long after them, and to pay the images the tribute of an embrace and a reverence of honor, not to pay to them the actual worship which is according to our faith, and which is proper only to the divine nature: but as to the figure of the venerable and life-giving cross, and to the holy Gospels and the other sacred monuments, so to those images to accord the honor of incense and oblation of lights, as it has been the pious custom of antiquity. For the honor paid to the image passes to its original, and he that honors an image honors in it the person depicted thereby.” The real purpose of the commandment is to steer the people of God away from idolatry, that is, the worship of any false god. Consider the following passages: “For they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods; then the anger of the Lord would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly. But thus shall you deal with them: you shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire” (Deut. 7:4-5). “And the people of Israel did secretly against the Lord their God things that were not right. They built for themselves high places at all their towns, from watchtower to fortified city; they set up for themselves pillars and Asherim on every high hill and under every green tree; and there they burned incense on all the high places, as the nations did whom the Lord carried away before them. And they did wicked things, provoking the Lord to anger, and they served idols, of which the Lord had said to them, ‘You shall not do this’” (2 Kgs. 17:9-12). God obviously abhors idolatry; however, in the same Scriptures we see the Jews making statues for legitimate religious purposes, and under God’s command: “And the Lord said to Moses, Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live” (Num. 21:8-9).

 

[twb1621]

---

**
TO: Sabbath Keeper
“If you also read…” **

The warning you initially refer to above was also before the Jews refused to accept Jesus and salvation was opened to all…
You refer to idols but for something to be an idol it must be idolized… The most important response I presented you, you missed and it is the one I most greatly seek your response to. It follows;

First off, you should realize we do not kneel or worship the images. We kneel at times in prayer before the Tabernacle, which houses the Eucharist, the body of Christ. For those who refuse to recognize the Eucharist yet claim to be Christians it is disgraceful, as the apostles themselves shared the sacrament of the Eucharist with the faithful as the core of Christianity. As far as worshiping the statues or images, they are not worshipped but serve as an image to reflect and meditate with in remembrance of the events of the Holy ones of Christ. Some look upon them in reflection and others do not but they do not hold any significance as far as salvation or worship. We do not stand there rubbing them until they smoke and praise them begging for miracles as worship would entail. In fact, to judge these images in the sense you suggest would mean everyone who has any image including photos would be condemned under this commandment. If a mother holds a picture of her son who has died and kissed the picture, does she then love the picture as her son? When you miss someone and reflect on an image of him or her, have you replaced him or her with the image? We must be realistic.

The technical response for those who might need this…
God prohibits in the Ten Commandments the making of idols and the worshipping of them: “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them…for I the Lord your God am a jealous God” (Exod. 20:4-5). At first instance it would appear that this commandment imposes an absolute prohibition against the making and use of all images per se. However, a thorough examination of the Old Testament precludes such an interpretation, as this would necessitate God prohibiting what He allows and commands elsewhere, especially concerning the Temple of Jerusalem itself. It follows that if the Commandments prohibited the making of any images whatsoever, Protestants ought to remove and destroy all their statues of George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and even Mount Rushmore, as well as burning all their pictures of relatives and friends. Common sense though tells us that such would be an absurd outcome. The Catholic doctrine on the veneration of images was fully outlined by the Second Council of Nicaea in 787 AD: “Proceeding as it were on the royal road and following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers, and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition is of the Holy Spirit which dwells in the Church), we define with all care and exactitude, that the venerable and holy images are set up in just the same way as the figure of the precious and life-giving cross; painted images, and those in mosaic and those of other suitable materials, in the holy churches of God, on holy vessels and vestments, on walls and in pictures, in houses and by the roadsides; images of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ and of our undefiled Lady, the holy God-bearer, and of the honorable angels, and of saintly and holy men. For the more frequently these are observed by means of such representations, so much the more will the beholders be aroused to recollect the originals and to long after them, and to pay the images the tribute of an embrace and a reverence of honor, not to pay to them the actual worship which is according to our faith, and which is proper only to the divine nature: but as to the figure of the venerable and life-giving cross, and to the holy Gospels and the other sacred monuments, so to those images to accord the honor of incense and oblation of lights, as it has been the pious custom of antiquity. For the honor paid to the image passes to its original, and he that honors an image honors in it the person depicted thereby.” The real purpose of the commandment is to steer the people of God away from idolatry, that is, the worship of any false god. Consider the following passages: “For they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods; then the anger of the Lord would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly. But thus shall you deal with them: you shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire” (Deut. 7:4-5). “And the people of Israel did secretly against the Lord their God things that were not right. They built for themselves high places at all their towns, from watchtower to fortified city; they set up for themselves pillars and Asherim on every high hill and under every green tree; and there they burned incense on all the high places, as the nations did whom the Lord carried away before them. And they did wicked things, provoking the Lord to anger, and they served idols, of which the Lord had said to them, ‘You shall not do this’” (2 Kgs. 17:9-12). God obviously abhors idolatry; however, in the same Scriptures we see the Jews making statues for legitimate religious purposes, and under God’s command: “And the Lord said to Moses, Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live” (Num. 21:8-9).

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I thank you Tom!!! But those most grateful for the larger print type are my “old eyes”

God bless all!!!

 

[twb1621]

My reference to “coming out of her” refers to a mother giving birth to a child. And the reference to the CC being the mother of the Protestant denominations comes for the letters written by the Pope when he was still the Cardinal in charge of the Congregation of Faith and Doctrine (I believe that was the name of that branch of the CC), in any case the letter stated that Protestant churches were NOT brothers and sisters but DAUGHTERS of the Catholic Church. This, of course, is in an effort to promote Ecuminicalism and bring these churches back into the fold of the CC.

Regarding your reference here, I have not seen any statements along the lines you refer to where the CC calls other denominations, “daughters of the church”. would you provide the source for this?

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Part 1 of 2

Nice chop job. Guess it was bound to happen.

The warning you initially refer to above was also before the Jews refused to accept Jesus and salvation was opened to all…

And your implication is that these types of warning are not pertainent (sic) to Christians?

You refer to idols but for something to be an idol it must be idolized…

I refer to the scriptural reference “graven images” that are bowed down to and/or prayed to or used in worship relationship to God.

The most important response I presented you, you missed and it is the one I most greatly seek your response to. It follows;

Much of what follows has been covered, but yet again to streer the topic away from the questions posed the tactic of using a different line of reasoning is used to avoid answering. It’s the usual attack that is done over and over again. But, so that I remain consistant I will answer your divergent line of questioning.

First off, you should realize we do not kneel or worship the images.

Really, you yourself may not “kneel” ( another word for bow down) but others do. The subject of whether or not images are worshipped has already been covered at least twice and probably more on this thread and I reiterate, ***I have not accussed ***anyone here of doing so.

We kneel at times in prayer before the Tabernacle, which houses the Eucharist, the body of Christ. For those who refuse to recognize the Eucharist yet claim to be Christians it is disgraceful, as the apostles themselves shared the sacrament of the Eucharist with the faithful as the core of Christianity.

And here is the divergent subject matter that is used to divert the questions posed. I’ll not get into this as it takes us off into a different realm and matters of opinion and it will do no good to add yet another line of reasoning to an already difficult matter. We keep doing this and then we end up discussing everything but that which we are trying to resolve. Let’s stick to one point for now we can come back to this at a later time if you wish.

As far as worshiping the statues or images, they are not worshipped but serve as an image to reflect and meditate with in remembrance of the events of the Holy ones of Christ.

As I have already state ad infinitum, this is understood. Go on to something else and please quite repeating your same arguments or at least answer the questions poses.

Some look upon them in reflection and others do not but they do not hold any significance as far as salvation or worship. We do not stand there rubbing them until they smoke and praise them begging for miracles as worship would entail. In fact, to judge these images in the sense you suggest would mean everyone who has any image including photos would be condemned under this commandment. If a mother holds a picture of her son who has died and kissed the picture, does she then love the picture as her son? When you miss someone and reflect on an image of him or her, have you replaced him or her with the image? We must be realistic.

Again, as I have stated before, the relationship between an image and those that view that image concerning whether or not it is an “idol” depends on who that image is treated. And I have never made any suggestion that would cause the meaning of the commandment to include the items you mention. Now if a mother were to pray to her son, notice I did not say for her son, then that would in essence turn that picture into an idol, big big difference than viewing and weeping over it because of her lose.

The technical response for those who might need this…
God prohibits in the Ten Commandments the making of idols and the worshipping of them:

Read it again, it says “graven image” and “bow down to” and “serve them”. It does not here call them “idols” even though we recognize the discription of an “idol” it does not call them this which makes the commandment all the more encompassing.
twb1621;4852031:

l not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them…for I the Lord your God am a jealous God” (Exod. 20:4-5). At first instance it would appear that this commandment imposes an absolute prohibition against the making and use of all images per se. However, a thorough examination of the Old Testament precludes such an interpretation, as this would necessitate God prohibiting what He allows and commands elsewhere, especially concerning the Temple of Jerusalem itself. It follows that if the Commandments prohibited the making of any images whatsoever,

Did you actually read what I posted or is your memory that short lived, please go back and reread what I wrote concerning the images in of the brass serpent, the angels on the Tabernacle walls and the Cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant.

Protestants ought to remove and destroy all their statues of George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and even Mount Rushmore, as well as burning all their pictures of relatives and friends.

Only if they bow down and pray to them. If they don’t then they are not idols and have NO religious significances.

Common sense though tells us that such would be an absurd outcome.

At least we agree on this point.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Part 2 of 2

The Catholic doctrine on the veneration of images was fully outlined by the Second Council of Nicaea in 787 AD: “Proceeding as it were on the royal road and following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers, and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition is of the Holy Spirit which dwells in the Church), we define with all care and exactitude, that the venerable and holy images are set up in just the same way as the figure of the precious and life-giving cross; painted images, and those in mosaic and those of other suitable materials, in the holy churches of God, on holy vessels and vestments, on walls and in pictures, in houses and by the roadsides; images of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ and of our undefiled Lady, the holy God-bearer, and of the honorable angels, and of saintly and holy men. For the more frequently these are observed by means of such representations, so much the more will the beholders be aroused to recollect the originals and to long after them, and to pay the images the tribute of an embrace and a reverence of honor, not to pay to them the actual worship which is according to our faith, and which is proper only to the divine nature: but as to the figure of the venerable and life-giving cross, and to the holy Gospels and the other sacred monuments,

I see no problem with using these “items” to remember historical Church events nor those who participated in them. I argee that pictures and painting that tell the story of Christ and the salvation he brought would have been usefull to the teaching of the illiterate, however, I ask, has the CC taken this a step further than it needed too? And when did it do this if it did? And by who’s authority? Again, the questions arise that have yet to be answered.

so to those images to accord the honor of incense and oblation of lights, as it has been the pious custom of antiquity.

Activities that indicate and are included in worship services, are they not?

For the honor paid to the image passes to its original, and he that honors an image honors in it the person depicted thereby.

It is always an honor to ones memory when we remember the things that they have done in their lives, to do so only shows our gratitude and up lifts us when we have to travail the same paths.

” The real purpose of the commandment is to steer the people of God away from idolatry, that is, the worship of any false god. Consider the following passages: “For they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods; then the anger of the Lord would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly. But thus shall you deal with them: you shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire” (Deut. 7:4-5). “And the people of Israel did secretly against the Lord their God things that were not right. They built for themselves high places at all their towns, from watchtower to fortified city; they set up for themselves pillars and Asherim on every high hill and under every green tree; and there they burned incense on all the high places, as the nations did whom the Lord carried away before them. And they did wicked things, provoking the Lord to anger, and they served idols, of which the Lord had said to them, ‘You shall not do this’” (2 Kgs. 17:9-12). God obviously abhors idolatry; however, in the same Scriptures we see the Jews making statues for legitimate religious purposes, and under God’s command: “And the Lord said to Moses, Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live” (Num. 21:8-9).

I’ve already made my points on these scriptures and you are not stating anything I myself have not stated. The point when I made the statements was that God did not want the Jews to have anything to do with the Idolatry of the surrounding nations that he commanded they were to conquer and then I asked the three basic questions that I have be asking over and over and over and over that have been ignored over and over and over and over again and again and again and again. Would you please answer them?

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Really, you yourself may not “kneel” ( another word for bow down) but others do. The subject of whether or not images are worshipped has already been covered at least twice and probably more on this thread and I reiterate, ***I have not accussed ***anyone here of doing so.

I have at times knelt before a statue, or a picture, as I prayed, and have never worshipped the statue or the picture. I must admit that I have at times worshiped the person the picture or statue represents, but only One, and that would be Jesus Christ. The others I’m just talking with.

I am glad that you are not accusing anyone of idolatry for doing this, and it appears to me that you do understand why we do that and that it is not idolatry…and I appreciate your understanding!

Again, as I have stated before, the relationship between an image and those that view that image concerning whether or not it is an “idol” depends on who that image is treated. And I have never made any suggestion that would cause the meaning of the commandment to include the items you mention. Now if a mother were to pray to her son, notice I did not say for her son, then that would in essence turn that picture into an idol, big big difference than viewing and weeping over it because of her lose.

While I agree that anyone can turn anything into an idol, the mere fact that a mother is praying “to” her son while looking at his picture does not necessarily imply idolatry. Intention and motivation of the person determine whether or not it is a sin.

Here’s a quote from Mrs. White in “Steps to Christ”:

Steps to Christ (1892, 1893), page 93, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: The Privilege of Prayer
Prayer is the opening of the heart to God as to a friend. Not that it is necessary in order to make known to God what we are, but in order to enable us to receive Him. Prayer does not bring God down to us, but brings us up to Him.

She says that prayer is opening the heart to God as to a friend.

That would imply that in communicating to friends, and with friends, and between friends, that we open our hearts to each other.

Prayer to Saints is still opening the heart between friends. Most Christians understand the distiction between human and Divine…especially during their prayers…opening of their hearts between friends…to God and to Saints and to those with whom we interact on a daily basis.

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I see no problem with using these “items” to remember historical Church events nor those who participated in them. I argee that pictures and painting that tell the story of Christ and the salvation he brought would have been usefull to the teaching of the illiterate, however, I ask, has the CC taken this a step further than it needed too? And when did it do this if it did? And by who’s authority? Again, the questions arise that have yet to be answered.

I’m somewhat literate and I find the pictures, paintings, sculptures, and artwork not only useful as an aid to teaching, but a blessing of beauty that draws us to the Creator of all that is beautiful.

To answer your question highlighted in red above, I would say no, the Church did not take it a step further than it needed to.

But I know you are adressing these questions to Tom, so, I ask that you and Tom forgive me for jumping in.

I’ve already made my points on these scriptures and you are not stating anything I myself have not stated. The point when I made the statements was that God did not want the Jews to have anything to do with the Idolatry of the surrounding nations that he commanded they were to conquer and then I asked the three basic questions that I have be asking over and over and over and over that have been ignored over and over and over and over again and again and again and again. Would you please answer them?

I agree that God did not want the Jews to have anything to do with the idolatry of the surrounding nations.

But please clarify for me what your three questions are which have not been answered after repeated asking? (This is my somewhat illiterate nature being revealed)

Thanks!

God bless all!!!

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

I would just like to clarify a few points for Sabbath Keeper,

Bowing to, or before someone, whether a man or an angel or an image, in the Bible at times means something other than worship.

It is a very sincere and complete act of showing respect. For example:
Patrick Murebil;4852348:

Genesis 18:1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
3 He said, "If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by.

It’s nice to have different translations isn’t it?

KJV same verse

1. And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: (understanding the “him” is Abrahamand he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;2. And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: (so who is the “him” in this case?and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door,(so the them and the him could not have been in the tent door with Abraham. So the them must have been with the him who must have been the Lord that Abraham saw)** and bowed himself toward the ground**

Could it be that Abraham was bowing down to the LORD?

Genesis 23:6 “Sir, listen to us. You are a mighty prince among us. Bury your dead in the choicest of our tombs. None of us will refuse you his tomb for burying your dead.” 7 Then Abraham rose and bowed down before the people of the land, the Hittites. 8 He said to them, "If you are willing to let me bury my dead, then listen to me and intercede with Ephron son of Zohar on my behalf

Your point is made and accepted in this case. But note that this is not a suplication to worship or to prayer but it is rather an acknowledgement of the kindness bestowed upon Abraham by the Hittites in honor of them recognizing him as a “mighty prince”.

Genesis 27:28 May God give you of heaven’s dew
and of earth’s richness—
an abundance of grain and new wine.
29 May nations serve you
and peoples bow down to you.
Be lord over your brothers,
and may the sons of your mother bow down to you.
May those who curse you be cursed
and those who bless you be blessed."
30 After Isaac finished blessing him and Jacob had scarcely left his father’s presence, his brother Esau came in from hunting.

Do you not recognize the prophecy within this text? That which was to be bestowed upon the whole of Isreal and the decendants of Isaac and Abraham through Jacob? Come now, are not the Children of God blessed and does not God reward those how honor his Children? What does Jesus say about this? When time comes to an end will not all the nations bow down to the “Holy One” of Israel?

Genesis 33:2 He put the maidservants and their children in front, Leah and her children next, and Rachel and Joseph in the rear. 3 He himself went on ahead and bowed down to the ground seven times as he approached his brother. 4 But Esau ran to meet Jacob and embraced him; he threw his arms around his neck and kissed him. And they wept.

Genesis 33:6 Then the maidservants and their children approached and bowed down. 7 Next, Leah and her children came and bowed down. Last of all came Joseph and Rachel, and they too bowed down. 8 Esau asked, “What do you mean by all these droves I met?” “To find favor in your eyes, my lord,” he said.

See (con’t 2)

( I only deleted out some of the text for expedience and assure you that I have read it all. No deception as to what was presented was or is intended as you can see from my response.)

Granted and conceded, bowing down can be and has been used as a sign of respect. But that does not annul the commandment of not bowing down before graven images. Again, I must reiterate. Statues, pictures and other such things in and of themselves DO NOT constitute a violation of the commandment, it is ONLY when they are used in such a manner as to invoke religious activity that they become suspect and therefore must be avoided. Remember what Paul preached concerning appearances and cause offense concerning such things. It is because of these things that CC members are perceived to be Idolators. Is it better to be perceive as that which you proclaim not to be and continue or to discontinue and avoid turning potential brothers and sisters away from the Church because of their perceptions?