History of the Roman Catholic Church

[twb1621]

Nothing was said about removing the commandments what was said was "So which commandments of God are valid and which are not? Do we, as Christians, no matter at what level, have the right to change these laws? According to the CCC the intents of some of the Commandments have been changed. Why and by whom and are these changes actually valid? What proof can be shown that Apostles or even Christ would have approved of these changes?

And if anybody is concerned that this is off topic, it goes directly to the lineage of the True Church. Think about it.

I know your questions pertain to something specific that you are referring to but I do not know what. What generates the question what is valid and not valid? The commandments are valid. The only “changes” that I can relate to was through Jesus who strengthened the commandments in a sense, extended their intent. if you can be a bit more specific as to what you are referring to I will be glad to respond but I know of nothing that has been decreased or weakened by the Catholic Church. I am however interested in seeing some specific examples of what you question.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

So which commandments of God are valid and which are not? Do we, as Christians, no matter at what level, have the right to change these laws? Much has been stated on other threads as to the changing by “implication” of some but where is the concrete evidence save for writtings of men after the Apostles were no longer on the scene that are used to support these claims? God dealt with Isreal in a certain manner, punishments were meted out due to disobedience to his commandments, as Christians, ADOPTED heirs to Abraham, the father of Isaac, the father of Jacob, who became Israel, are we subject to these same commandments?

Hi Sabbath Keeper,
To answer one of your questions above, we as Christians do not have the right to change God’s laws. Only God has the right to change His laws. Jesus, therefore God, gave authority to the Apostles over The Church when He established it. This authority is to govern The Church, not rule the Universe.

God gave commands in the OT and did mete out punishments such as putting to death someone who committed adultery or broke the sabbath. At times He ordered entire nations to be “put to the sword”…men, women, and children. These commands and punishments were always used to teach God’s people. Remember, the Hebrews were slaves in Egypt for what, 400 years or so? Every form of idolatry was practiced by the Egyptians, every form of immorality was indulged…and Egypt was a great power and empire…wealthy beyond all imagination…yet sinful and completely against God. For good or ill, this probably made strong and lasting impressions on the Hebrew slaves.

In God’s plan of salvation, at that point in salvation history, God liberated the Hebrew slaves and led them to the promised land to make a nation of them. As evidenced by the orgy and return to idol worship by the Hebrews when Moses went up the mountain to enter into a covenant with God, there was much debased thinking and acting on the part of the Hebrews that God needed to change. So many of the OT laws and ceremonies were geared toward education and was made part of their daily lives.

That particular covenant, between God and Moses, like the covenants before it, with Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham; and the covenants after it with David and Jesus’ followers, was to instruct mankind in God’s ways as part of His plan of saving the fallen sinful human race. God dealt differently with mankind in each covenant, and yet the ultimate goal and underlying truths always remained constant.

In the covenant with Abraham a promise was made to Abraham and his descendents to be God’s children with all the blessings that entails. In the covenant made with The Church, therefore all believers in Jesus (i.e., Christians), all who come to Jesus, including Gentiles become heirs to the Promise made to Abraham and thus we are adopted as children of God, not necessarily children of Abraham. It is an important distinctiion. Now all people can be adopted by God and become His children and enter into salvation and eternal life with God. Redeemed and restored to our origianl relationship with God as it was in the beginning before sin entered, and as it will be forever after Jesus returns in glory.

There were many commands throughout the Bible, many of which are no longer followed by Christians. Jesus, who is the fulfillment of all the OT teachings, prophecies, laws, and hopes…God made man, provides us with His commands in the NT and it is those commands that we as Christians must obey. Those are the commands to which we as Christians are subject. He is our King, and to live in His Kingdom we need to obey Him.

Part of His teachings and commands relate specifically to the 10 commandments such as in Matthew 5-7. Other commands are in addition to the 10 commandments but not contrary to them. These commands of Jesus were not changed by the Apostles, nor by their successors. The Apostles and their “Jesus/God authorized” successors were given authority to uphold these laws and to “run” the Church.

To not accept the authority of the Apostles successors is to say that all authority in the Church ended when the last of the origianl 12 Apostles died. And that is not the case scripturally. But they did not change the commands of God as taught by God made man, Jesus Christ.

See my next post below.

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

(con’t)

Nothing was said about removing the commandments what was said was "So which commandments of God are valid and which are not? Do we, as Christians, no matter at what level, have the right to change these laws? According to the CCC the intents of some of the Commandments have been changed. Why and by whom and are these changes actually valid? What proof can be shown that Apostles or even Christ would have approved of these changes?

And if anybody is concerned that this is off topic, it goes directly to the lineage of the True Church. Think about it.

As a former Seventh-day Adventist (SDA) myself who converted to Catholicism, I am assuming that you are talking about the commandment to remember the 7th day (saturday) to keep it holy. I am familiar with this issue. It was the one issue that prevented me from converting to Catholicism for a few years after I accepted and believed the teaching of The Eucharist…that is how powerful that issue is with SDAs.

I came to believe the Eucharist by studying the Holy Scriptures, and then convinced by reading the writings of the Apostles successors in the first couple hundred years of the Church. The NT scriptures were written during the first one hundred years after Jesus. The Bishops of the Churches were teaching their flocks and writing about Christian beliefs and practices during that same time period. They were teaching the Eucharist.

The points you raise are definitely related to this thread topic for lineage of the true Church, specifically for SDAs.

The Catholic Church teaches that the true lineage is through Apostolic succession. The SDA church believes, and the point you are making (and correct me if I am wrong), is that the true lineage is through those who keep the 10 commandments of God, specifically the 7th day sabbath commandment on saturday rather than sunday. Saturday was kept holy by the Hebrews in the OT and as well as in the time of Jesus, and, according to SDAs there are those who kept saturday holy from the time of Jesus to the present. And that keeping sunday holy is a departure from obeying the 10 commandments, and therefore nullifies any claim to being the true Church.

And yet if this were the case as the SDA church teaches, where in the NT does Jesus teach about the importance of the sabbath to be kept on saturday until He returns? Nowhere that I can find in the NT. And in addition to the lack of this teaching in the scriptures, just like with other practices of the early church in the first couple hundred years, the Bishops wrote and taught their flocks about the sacredness of The Lord’s Day, which they identify as Sunday, the day Jesus assured our salvation by defeating death in His resurrection. He already defeated sin by obeying God to His death on the cross.

I’ve seen other posts on this thread which have presented quotes from the early Bishops of The Church regarding Sunday, and they are quite clear and have very early dates associated with them.

As a protestant, I never read the Deuterocanonical books (what the protestants call the apocrapha), but I came across an interesting verse in one of those books where God was discussing the Temple. And the verse said that the Temple was made for mankind, and that man was not made for the Temple. Sounds much like what Jesus told the pharisees who were accusing Him of breaking the sabbath…“The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath”.

The sabbath was and always will be saturday. The Lord’s Day was and always will be the 1st day, sunday.

Given what Jesus said and did not say about the sabbath, I believe it does not hold the level of importance placed upon it by SDAs, and that reverential worship and respect for God on The Lord’s Day fulfills the moral requirement of the commandment.

This was the severest struggle I had to deal with in converting to Catholicism because I, like so many SDAs, was so deeply engrained with the importance of saturday. Ultimately it is not so much about a day as it is what happened on that day. This is what Jesus was trying to teach the Jewish leaders during His interactions with them regarding the Sabbath.

I have tried to present some evidence to you regarding this, and I do not have all the quotes that I should have, and I have probably not done this subject justice in your mind. But even with lists of scripture and early Church fathers, I’m not sure that would convince or prove anything to you.

But if you go back and study and read and pray and pray and pray…well that will do more than anything I, or anyone else can say to you.

I’ve been where you are and I know the arguments that come to mind regarding this. All I ask is that you think and pray about it.

God bless all!!!

 

[twb1621]

(con’t)

As a former Seventh-day Adventist (SDA) myself who converted to Catholicism, I am assuming that you are talking about the commandment to remember the 7th day (saturday) to keep it holy. I am familiar with this issue. It was the one issue that prevented me from converting to Catholicism for a few years after I accepted and believed the teaching of The Eucharist…that is how powerful that issue is with SDAs.

I came to believe the Eucharist by studying the Holy Scriptures, and then convinced by reading the writings of the Apostles successors in the first couple hundred years of the Church. The NT scriptures were written during the first one hundred years after Jesus. The Bishops of the Churches were teaching their flocks and writing about Christian beliefs and practices during that same time period. They were teaching the Eucharist.

The points you raise are definitely related to this thread topic for lineage of the true Church, specifically for SDAs.

The Catholic Church teaches that the true lineage is through Apostolic succession. The SDA church believes, and the point you are making (and correct me if I am wrong), is that the true lineage is through those who keep the 10 commandments of God, specifically the 7th day sabbath commandment on saturday rather than sunday. Saturday was kept holy by the Hebrews in the OT and as well as in the time of Jesus, and, according to SDAs there are those who kept saturday holy from the time of Jesus to the present. And that keeping sunday holy is a departure from obeying the 10 commandments, and therefore nullifies any claim to being the true Church.

And yet if this were the case as the SDA church teaches, where in the NT does Jesus teach about the importance of the sabbath to be kept on saturday until He returns? Nowhere that I can find in the NT. And in addition to the lack of this teaching in the scriptures, just like with other practices of the early church in the first couple hundred years, the Bishops wrote and taught their flocks about the sacredness of The Lord’s Day, which they identify as Sunday, the day Jesus assured our salvation by defeating death in His resurrection. He already defeated sin by obeying God to His death on the cross.

I’ve seen other posts on this thread which have presented quotes from the early Bishops of The Church regarding Sunday, and they are quite clear and have very early dates associated with them.

As a protestant, I never read the Deuterocanonical books (what the protestants call the apocrapha), but I came across an interesting verse in one of those books where God was discussing the Temple. And the verse said that the Temple was made for mankind, and that man was not made for the Temple. Sounds much like what Jesus told the pharisees who were accusing Him of breaking the sabbath…“The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath”.

The sabbath was and always will be saturday. The Lord’s Day was and always will be the 1st day, sunday.

Given what Jesus said and did not say about the sabbath, I believe it does not hold the level of importance placed upon it by SDAs, and that reverential worship and respect for God on The Lord’s Day fulfills the moral requirement of the commandment.

This was the severest struggle I had to deal with in converting to Catholicism because I, like so many SDAs, was so deeply engrained with the importance of saturday. Ultimately it is not so much about a day as it is what happened on that day. This is what Jesus was trying to teach the Jewish leaders during His interactions with them regarding the Sabbath.

I have tried to present some evidence to you regarding this, and I do not have all the quotes that I should have, and I have probably not done this subject justice in your mind. But even with lists of scripture and early Church fathers, I’m not sure that would convince or prove anything to you.

But if you go back and study and read and pray and pray and pray…well that will do more than anything I, or anyone else can say to you.

I’ve been where you are and I know the arguments that come to mind regarding this. All I ask is that you think and pray about it.

God bless all!!!

A very valuable posting Patrick, thank you for your sharing of your experience…

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

A very valuable posting Patrick, thank you for your sharing of your experience…

You’re welcome twb1621,

I wonder if you think that my post directly above the one you quote is somewhat valuable as well in providing some explanation for Sabbath Keeper? Thanks!

God bless all!!!

 

[twb1621]

You’re welcome twb1621,

I wonder if you think that my post directly above the one you quote is somewhat valuable as well in providing some explanation for Sabbath Keeper? Thanks!

God bless all!!!

absolutely. For someone who has been through the experience of conversion to share that with others who question the Catholic Faith, it is most valuable as you can better relate to the concerns of those raising the questions. My thanks referred to both posts.
May the Holy Spirit guide us all…

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

absolutely. For someone who has been through the experience of conversion to share that with others who question the Catholic Faith, it is most valuable as you can better relate to the concerns of those raising the questions. My thanks referred to both posts.
May the Holy Spirit guide us all…

Ok!..and Amen!

God bless all!!!

 

[po18guy]

As a protestant, I never read the Deuterocanonical books (what the protestants call the apocrapha), but I came across an interesting verse in one of those books where God was discussing the Temple. And the verse said that the Temple was made for mankind, and that man was not made for the Temple. Sounds much like what Jesus told the pharisees who were accusing Him of breaking the sabbath…“The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath”.

As well, Jesus is Lord, even of the Sabbath. Was this not His prediction of His rising?

Matthew 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Luke 6:5 Then Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

It strikes me as that, since the Apostles immediately began meeting on Sunday after the Resurrection.

The sabbath was and always will be saturday. The Lord’s Day was and always will be the 1st day, sunday.

Amen!

 

[guanophore]

You might have a problem with this with some of your fellow Catholics as they will tell you that the Law was nailed to the cross and therefore done away with.

If a Catholic were to say such a thing, it would be indicative of an ignorance of Apostolic Teaching. The ceremonial obligations that were fulfilled in Christ do not nullify God’s moral law.

This notion that the Law was nailed to the cross and “done away with” is not Catholic. It springs from protestant anomial sources.

However, as stated before, I believe the OT needs to be used to learn how we are to relate to God.  Although we are under Grace, it does not mean that we can blatantly ignore what we learn from God's relationship with the Jews.

Yes, you are right. The only contention I had with your approach is that you were trying to establish the Scripture as the Standard which should be used to evaluate and establish Catholic history. This is not an effective starting point.

I also see that you are gearing up for the Sabbath issue. You are trying to establish tht the “true church” would never abrogate the Laws of God, and that the failure to keep the Sabbath Holy is one of the most telling signs that a church has missed the mark.

 

[guanophore]

This is the part of the point of which I was trying to direct the course of this thread and in doing so answer the question of whether or not the “Traditions” of the Church had or had not been in some way corrupted and if so when and how.

No doubt. But in doing so you are derailing the interest of the OP. If you want to discuss this, why not start a new thread?

Sacred Tradition is the preservation of the Teaching of the Apostles. The OP is asking for History. While the Sacred Tradition is evident throughout history, the broad testimony of history to the Roman Rite is much beyond the Sacred Tradition, which purpose is not to keep history of the world, but of the church.

I am refering to possible violations of the Moral Law of God. Those law of which the CC deems as Natural Laws and which it further seperates out, pardon me, those that seemingly are no longer valid because of the New Covenant.

Yes, of course! Most notably how you understand the Sabbath Law. In your view, those who do not keep the Sabbath Law as you understand it, cannot possibly be part of any authentic Church.

But this is not the topic of the thread:

I insist a challenge now to any protestant. Name your denomination, and we will see if your “church” predates the Universal Church.

But my point is that if God does not change then those Laws, whether considered Moral or Natural, would not change either.  Thus making them as valid today for the Christian as they were in the Old Testament for the Jew.

What you need to do, SK, is demonstrate through history that this is what the early church believed and taught.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

As I don’t think it necessary to answer each and every reponds directly, as the same ASSUMPTION is being made, let me assure your the Sabbath was not the issue that I was raising.

Although the Sabbath issue is an important part of SDA teaching, I do not agree, and this is something I am allowed to do as an SDA with out threat of being excomunicated for heresy, that it is nor should be the main issue concerning obedience to God. The Sabbath issue, in my opinion, has been used so extensively as an argument for commandment obedience that another issue has been vastly over looked, that, ladies and gentlemen, of the Second commandment, or rather the First for Catholics.

To me it is this commandment that lays the foundation of the rest of the following commandments and it is the Sabbath commandment that seals the commandments, identifying who God is and how immortant he is to us.

The commandment as the CCC has it:

Exodus 20:2-5(in part)

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before be. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them." Here the CCC stops, but let’s continue with the rest, for it is incomplete.

Exodus 20the rest) 5-6

for I am the LOrd thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. (emphisis mine)

So there is no misunderstand as to what was given to the Isrealites concerning this law let’s look again at it when Moses reiterates it to the nation in Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 5:6-10

Thou shalt not make thee any graven images, or anly likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the chidlern unto the third and forth generation of them tha hate me, And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. (Again, emphisis mine)

At this point I would also like to point at something very significant, notice, this is the only commandment of all the commandments that has BOTH a curse and a blessing attached to it. So tell me, how emportant is this commandment, a what specifically is God commanding here? So, help me disect it please.

Thou shalt not make thee any graven images, or anly likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

Seems simple enough, oh but what, didn’t God command that images of Angels be made in the was of the Tabernacle, and what about the snake on the staff, or the cherubim on the Ark of the covenant? Good questions and often raised when this subject comes up, and seemingly ending the topic then and there. Ok, let’s look at these.

The Angels on the Tabernacle wall:

Exodus 26:31-32 **
And thou shalt make a vail of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine fwined linen of cunning work: with cherubims shall it be bade: And thou shalt hang it upon four pillars of shittim wood overlaid with gold: their hooks shall be of gold, upon the four sockets of silver.**

I’ve searched the scriptures and have yet to find anywhere where God commands that the priests were to “bow down” to these images. You think, maybe, these Cherubim were supposed to represent what was in heaven seeing as the Tabernacle was supposed to represent God’s dwelling place on earth? Isn’t God surrounded by Angelic beings in heaven? Yes, this is speculation but, perhaps God wanted to give the preists a sense of what heaven was like.

The Snake on the Staff:

I’ll not write out the whole of the text, just that which pertains to what we are discussing. This incident can be found in Numbers 21. We find that Moses has made a vow to God but that the nation again rebels and complains agains God and Moses to wit God send “fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Isreal died.” let’s take it up from there.

Numbers 21: 7-9 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against the ; pray unto the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every on that is bitten, when he looketh upon it shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it uon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Hmm, no bowing down, no worshipping. Doesn’t fit the criteria.

Ok, the Ark of the Covenant:

We read about the design and the purpose of the Ark in Exodus 25. The verse I want to concentrate on is the last verse relating to the Ark.

Exodus 25:22 And (God is speaking here) there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cheribims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

Again, could it be that these cherubim represent the Angels that stand to the Right and Left of God’s throne in heaven? Show me where these “images” are bowed down to or worshipped. They don’t fit the criteria either.

To be continued

 

[twb1621]

As I don’t think it necessary to answer each and every reponds directly, as the same ASSUMPTION is being made, let me assure your the Sabbath was not the issue that I was raising.
The Sabbath issue, in my opinion, has been used so extensively as an argument for commandment obedience that another issue has been vastly over looked, that, ladies and gentlemen, of the Second commandment, or rather the First for Catholics.

To me it is this commandment that lays the foundation of the rest of the following commandments and it is the Sabbath commandment that seals the commandments, identifying who God is and how immortant he is to us.

The commandment as the CCC has it:

Exodus 20:2-5(in part)

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before be. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them." Here the CCC stops, but let’s continue with the rest, for it is incomplete.

Exodus 20the rest) 5-6

for I am the LOrd thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. (emphisis mine)

So there is no misunderstand as to what was given to the Isrealites concerning this law let’s look again at it when Moses reiterates it to the nation in Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 5:6-10

Thou shalt not make thee any graven images, or anly likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the chidlern unto the third and forth generation of them tha hate me, And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. (Again, emphisis mine)

At this point I would also like to point at something very significant, notice, this is the only commandment of all the commandments that has BOTH a curse and a blessing attached to it. So tell me, how emportant is this commandment, a what specifically is God commanding here? So, help me disect it please.

Thou shalt not make thee any graven images, or anly likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

Seems simple enough, oh but what, didn’t God command that images of Angels be made in the was of the Tabernacle, and what about the snake on the staff, or the cherubim on the Ark of the covenant? Good questions and often raised when this subject comes up, and seemingly ending the topic then and there. Ok, let’s look at these.

The Angels on the Tabernacle wall:

Exodus 26:31-32 **
And thou shalt make a vail of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine fwined linen of cunning work: with cherubims shall it be bade: And thou shalt hang it upon four pillars of shittim wood overlaid with gold: their hooks shall be of gold, upon the four sockets of silver.**

I’ve searched the scriptures and have yet to find anywhere where God commands that the priests were to “bow down” to these images. You think, maybe, these Cherubim were supposed to represent what was in heaven seeing as the Tabernacle was supposed to represent God’s dwelling place on earth? Isn’t God surrounded by Angelic beings in heaven? Yes, this is speculation but, perhaps God wanted to give the preists a sense of what heaven was like.

The Snake on the Staff:

I’ll not write out the whole of the text, just that which pertains to what we are discussing. This incident can be found in Numbers 21. We find that Moses has made a vow to God but that the nation again rebels and complains agains God and Moses to wit God send “fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Isreal died.” let’s take it up from there.

Numbers 21: 7-9 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against the ; pray unto the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every on that is bitten, when he looketh upon it shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it uon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Hmm, no bowing down, no worshipping. Doesn’t fit the criteria.

Ok, the Ark of the Covenant:

We read about the design and the purpose of the Ark in Exodus 25. The verse I want to concentrate on is the last verse relating to the Ark.

Exodus 25:22 And (God is speaking here) there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cheribims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

Again, could it be that these cherubim represent the Angels that stand to the Right and Left of God’s throne in heaven? Show me where these “images” are bowed down to or worshipped. They don’t fit the criteria either.

To be continued

SK, respectfully, you went to great lengths to argue a point that has been beaten to death and refuted historically yet doesn’t exist. I am not able to properly respond at this moment but look forward to shedding some light on this issue with you shortly. I hope you are available when I post.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

SK, respectfully, you went to great lengths to argue a point that has been beaten to death and refuted historically yet doesn’t exist. I am not able to properly respond at this moment but look forward to shedding some light on this issue with you shortly. I hope you are available when I post.

This is my Friday, I don’t have steady access to a computer with internet access so I do what I can when I can. Won’t be around again until late Saturday Night, but looking forward to your response.

 

[wisdomseeker]

As I don’t think it necessary to answer each and every reponds directly, as the same ASSUMPTION is being made, let me assure your the Sabbath was not the issue that I was raising.
To me it is this commandment that lays the foundation of the rest of the following commandments and it is the Sabbath commandment that seals the commandments, identifying who God is and how immortant he is to us.

The commandment as the CCC has it:

Exodus 20:2-5(in part)

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before be. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them." Here the CCC stops, but let’s continue with the rest, for it is incomplete.

Exodus 20the rest) 5-6

for I am the LOrd thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. (emphisis mine)

Deuteronomy 5:6-10

Thou shalt not make thee any graven images, or anly likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the chidlern unto the third and forth generation of them tha hate me, And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. (Again, emphisis mine)

Thou shalt not make thee any graven images, or anly likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

The Angels on the Tabernacle wall:

Exodus 26:31-32 **
And thou shalt make a vail of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine fwined linen of cunning work: with cherubims shall it be bade: And thou shalt hang it upon four pillars of shittim wood overlaid with gold: their hooks shall be of gold, upon the four sockets of silver.**

I’ve searched the scriptures and have yet to find anywhere where God commands that the priests were to “bow down” to these images. You think, maybe, these Cherubim were supposed to represent what was in heaven seeing as the Tabernacle was supposed to represent God’s dwelling place on earth? Isn’t God surrounded by Angelic beings in heaven? Yes, this is speculation but, perhaps God wanted to give the preists a sense of what heaven was like.

The Snake on the Staff:

I’ll not write out the whole of the text, just that which pertains to what we are discussing. This incident can be found in Numbers 21. We find that Moses has made a vow to God but that the nation again rebels and complains agains God and Moses to wit God send “fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Isreal died.” let’s take it up from there.

Numbers 21: 7-9 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against the ; pray unto the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every on that is bitten, when he looketh upon it shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it uon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Hmm, no bowing down, no worshipping. Doesn’t fit the criteria.

Ok, the Ark of the Covenant:

We read about the design and the purpose of the Ark in Exodus 25. The verse I want to concentrate on is the last verse relating to the Ark.

Exodus 25:22 And (God is speaking here) there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cheribims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

Again, could it be that these cherubim represent the Angels that stand to the Right and Left of God’s throne in heaven? Show me where these “images” are bowed down to or worshipped. They don’t fit the criteria either.

To be continued

are you confused on this issue?

please show us where the CC teaches us to make images of any kind and then worship them as God. show us please.

you misunderstand what God is trying to say. that is what He is saying, since the Israelites had come out of Egypt where many images were worshipped as God, the Lord is teaching them not to do the same.

the Lord Himself commanded them to make images of Angels, remember the snake of bronze? was it worshipped or just used for a purpose?

it is a shame you people being misled by your own understanding of the Word are also misleading others who also have little understanding of the Word.

again, i ask you where does Catholics ever used the images, statues of Saints or others and said that these are our gods.

**

BLESSED TO BE CATHOLIC.**

 

[twb1621]

This is my Friday, I don’t have steady access to a computer with internet access so I do what I can when I can. Won’t be around again until late Saturday Night, but looking forward to your response.

First off, you should realize we do not kneel or worship the images. We kneel at times in prayer before the Tabernacle, which houses the Eucharist, the body of Christ. For those who refuse to recognize the Eucharist yet claim to be Christians it is disgraceful, as the apostles themselves shared the sacrament of the Eucharist with the faithful as the core of Christianity. As far as worshiping the statues or images, they are not worshipped but serve as an image to reflect and meditate with in remembrance of the events of the Holy ones of Christ. Some look upon them in reflection and others do not but they do not hold any significance as far as salvation or worship. We do not stand there rubbing them until they smoke and praise them begging for miracles as worship would entail. In fact, to judge these images in the sense you suggest would mean everyone who has any image including photos would be condemned under this commandment. If a mother holds a picture of her son who has died and kissed the picture, does she then love the picture as her son? When you miss someone and reflect on an image of him or her, have you replaced him or her with the image? We must be realistic.

The technical response for those who might need this…
God prohibits in the Ten Commandments the making of idols and the worshipping of them: “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them…for I the Lord your God am a jealous God” (Exod. 20:4-5). At first instance it would appear that this commandment imposes an absolute prohibition against the making and use of all images per se. However, a thorough examination of the Old Testament precludes such an interpretation, as this would necessitate God prohibiting what He allows and commands elsewhere, especially concerning the Temple of Jerusalem itself. It follows that if the Commandments prohibited the making of any images whatsoever, Protestants ought to remove and destroy all their statues of George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and even Mount Rushmore, as well as burning all their pictures of relatives and friends. Common sense though tells us that such would be an absurd outcome. The Catholic doctrine on the veneration of images was fully outlined by the Second Council of Nicaea in 787 AD: “Proceeding as it were on the royal road and following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers, and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition is of the Holy Spirit which dwells in the Church), we define with all care and exactitude, that the venerable and holy images are set up in just the same way as the figure of the precious and life-giving cross; painted images, and those in mosaic and those of other suitable materials, in the holy churches of God, on holy vessels and vestments, on walls and in pictures, in houses and by the roadsides; images of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ and of our undefiled Lady, the holy God-bearer, and of the honorable angels, and of saintly and holy men. For the more frequently these are observed by means of such representations, so much the more will the beholders be aroused to recollect the originals and to long after them, and to pay the images the tribute of an embrace and a reverence of honor, not to pay to them the actual worship which is according to our faith, and which is proper only to the divine nature: but as to the figure of the venerable and life-giving cross, and to the holy Gospels and the other sacred monuments, so to those images to accord the honor of incense and oblation of lights, as it has been the pious custom of antiquity. For the honor paid to the image passes to its original, and he that honors an image honors in it the person depicted thereby.” The real purpose of the commandment is to steer the people of God away from idolatry, that is, the worship of any false god. Consider the following passages: “For they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods; then the anger of the Lord would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly. But thus shall you deal with them: you shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire” (Deut. 7:4-5). “And the people of Israel did secretly against the Lord their God things that were not right. They built for themselves high places at all their towns, from watchtower to fortified city; they set up for themselves pillars and Asherim on every high hill and under every green tree; and there they burned incense on all the high places, as the nations did whom the Lord carried away before them. And they did wicked things, provoking the Lord to anger, and they served idols, of which the Lord had said to them, ‘You shall not do this’” (2 Kgs. 17:9-12). God obviously abhors idolatry; however, in the same Scriptures we see the Jews making statues for legitimate religious purposes, and under God’s command: “And the Lord said to Moses, Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live” (Num. 21:8-9).

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

are you confused on this issue?

please show us where the CC teaches us to make images of any kind and then worship them as God. show us please.

you misunderstand what God is trying to say. that is what He is saying, since the Israelites had come out of Egypt where many images were worshipped as God, the Lord is teaching them not to do the same.

Sorry, I don’t mean to sound sarcastic and this is not entended to be so. But, does this mean that we are now allowed to do what God forbade the Isrealites to do? I seem to remember reading in John’s writing that we were to “Keep yourselves from Idols.”

the Lord Himself commanded them to make images of Angels, remember the snake of bronze? was it worshipped or just used for a purpose?

Reread my post, I believe you will find I’ve already explained that.

it is a shame you people being misled by your own understanding of the Word are also misleading others who also have little understanding of the Word.

again, i ask you where does Catholics ever used the images, statues of Saints or others and said that these are our gods.

BLESSED TO BE CATHOLIC.

Where have I EVERY stated in this thread that you believed your “ICONS” are your gods? I only stated that images should not be used in any sort of worship, even to God.

Let’s reveiw that commandment again, shall we?

Exodus 20:2-7

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before be. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. For I am the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Point 1 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them

By definition a “graven image” is a statue. Please feel free to correct me. And when God says “any” or “anything” I believe that is exactly what he means. Now then, he all so mentions were those “any” or “anythings” are located: “heaven” or “earth” whether “in” the “earth” or “in” the “waters under” the “earth”. I don’t see where he mention anything about recognizing them as gods, though the implication is at the beginning of the commandment. HIs commandment is not, “Thou shalt not bow down to them as gods”. It is “Thou shalt not bow down to them.” period end of story. NO BOWING DOWN TO IMAGES. For that matter he stress that we aren’t even to pray to these images.

I ask you, do the images that the CC uses resemble anything “in” the “earth” or “in heaven”? The proclaimed purpose of these images is NOT the issue, the issue is the commandment of God. Facts are that the Church had no images that were bowed to nor prayed before until three centuries after its establishment. And as time past more and more imagery was added. As I have no references with me at this time I will have to defer to you’re upcoming demand for said documents until a later time.

 

[twb1621]

As I don’t think it necessary to answer each and every reponds directly, as the same ASSUMPTION is being made, let me assure your the Sabbath was not the issue that I was raising.

one thing I would ask of you out of the same respect you would ask. Please do not ignore posts that respond to you, as it then seems you cannot respond but wish to continue an issue without basis. If you do receive mutliple responses of the same nature, perhaps you can response once as you said but just direct it to those posters who you respond to so we know you are acknowledging the posts.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Although the Sabbath issue is an important part of SDA teaching, I do not agree, and this is something I am allowed to do as an SDA with out threat of being excomunicated for heresy, that it is nor should be the main issue concerning obedience to God. The Sabbath issue, in my opinion, has been used so extensively as an argument for commandment obedience that another issue has been vastly over looked, that, ladies and gentlemen, of the Second commandment, or rather the First for Catholics.

To me it is this commandment that lays the foundation of the rest of the following commandments and it is the Sabbath commandment that seals the commandments, identifying who God is and how immortant he is to us.

The commandment as the CCC has it:

Exodus 20:2-5(in part)

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before be. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them." Here the CCC stops, but let’s continue with the rest, for it is incomplete.

Exodus 20the rest) 5-6

for I am the LOrd thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. (emphisis mine)

Oh my dear Sabbath Keeper, I cannot begin to tell you, nor will you most likely believe me when I say, how much my heart goes out to you right now because I have been in this same position of trying to prove that the Catholic Church trampled all over God’s Holy 10 Commandments.

Because of my indoctrination by the SDA church, and the years of reading Ellen White, where this claim is drilled over and over and over. I fought with so many Catholics about this because I “knew” they changed God’s Law and that it could be proven without the shadow of a doubt by looking at their Catechism…because that is what the SDA church writes in their publications on this subject…with examples like you have provided above of how the Catholic Church clips and deletes and changes parts of the 10 Commandments.

If you hear nothing else I say, nor read anything else I write, or if you never believe anything else The Catholic Church teaches, please, please, acknowledge this one point…The commandment which you quote above is recorded in the CCC. It is referenced for anyone to go and read in the Bible as well as in the footnote. However, please be clear that the CCC is a summary of Catholic teachings, not a reprint of the Bible.

**The Catechism of the Catholic Church

PART 3, SECTION 2 2, CHAPTER 1 1, ARTICLE 1

ARTICLE 1: THE FIRST COMMANDMENT

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. 3
It is written: “You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.” 4

I. “YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND HIM ONLY SHALL YOU SERVE”**

kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getsection.cfm?partnum=3&SecNum=2&ChapNum=1&articlenum=1&ParSecNum=0&subSecNum=0&headernum=0&ParNum=2084&ParType=4

Here is the footnote highlighted above in red:

**The Catechism of the Catholic Church
Footnote References

3 Ex 20:2-5; cf. Deut 5:6-9.
CITED TEXT:

Deuteronomy 5:6-9

I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
'You shall have no other gods before me.
‘You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me.’ **

kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getreftext.cfm?PartNum=3&SecNum=2&ChapNum=1&FParnum=2195&FnoteNum=3&NoteText=3%20Ex%2020%3A2%2D5%3B%20cf%2E%20Deut%205%3A6%2D9%2E

The Catholic Church is not trying to hide anything nor change the 10 commandments. In fact if you read the entire section on the 10 commandments in the CCC, you will see that The Church teaches us to follow the moral law.

It was very difficult for me to see through the blindness of my pre-conceived notions regarding the Catholic Church…especially since I believed it was led by Satan, and contained the anti-christ, out to deceive the world and lead souls to hell. I believed they trampled the Law of God.

But when I really began to look at what they taught, instead of what I thought they taught, or was told by protestants that they taught, it did not take long to discover how very wrong I was.

I wish I could explain this better.

Again, could it be that these cherubim represent the Angels that stand to the Right and Left of God’s throne in heaven? Show me where these “images” are bowed down to or worshipped. They don’t fit the criteria either.

To be continued

And, correct me if I’m wrong, but are you saying that Catholics bow down and worship “images”?

Because that is not true either…at least among the Catholics I know. And if you know of Catholics who bow down and worship images, please share that experience with me.

God bless all!!!

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

one thing I would ask of you out of the same respect you would ask. Please do not ignore posts that respond to you, as it then seems you cannot respond but wish to continue an issue without basis. If you do receive mutliple responses of the same nature, perhaps you can response once as you said but just direct it to those posters who you respond to so we know you are acknowledging the posts.

It was not my intent to ignore responses, and I hope that this was understood. I believe I covered that main issue that was being brought up and that was the misconception that I was directing the issue toward the much battered Sabbath and as there were several posts that specifically pointed to this issue my desire was to put an end to that supposition as quickly as possible. To have responded to each post would have meant repeating the same points numerous times thus waisting posting space and opportunities. Thank you for your concern. I would like to say that this has been one of the most civil and pleasant discussions I have been involved with in quite some time.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Pat, let me assure you, although I am a member of the SDA church, that which I am presenting has not be coming from what they have taught be. Believe me when I say that I find that the teaching on this subject is, how shall I say this kindly of my own church, somewhat lacking and I believe, displeasing to God. Nough said.

And, correct me if I’m wrong, but are you saying that Catholics bow down and worship “images”?

Because that is not true either…at least among the Catholics I know. And if you know of Catholics who bow down and worship images, please share that experience with me.

God bless all!!!

Ok, let me clearify myself before I continue on. I am NOT accusing any members of the CC of:

1. Believing that the Images used in the CC are their gods
2. Worship these images.

What I am stressing is what the commandment of God states and that is “thou shatt not”:

1. Make
2. Bow down
3. Pray to

any images or anything that is in

1. The earth
2. The waters under the earth
   3 Heaven

I hope I have made myself clearer on these points.