History of the Roman Catholic Church

[Thing]

Pat, let me assure you, although I am a member of the SDA church, that which I am presenting has not be coming from what they have taught be. Believe me when I say that I find that the teaching on this subject is, how shall I say this kindly of my own church, somewhat lacking and I believe, displeasing to God. Nough said.

Ok, let me clearify myself before I continue on. I am NOT accusing any members of the CC of:

1. Believing that the Images used in the CC are their gods
2. Worship these images.

What I am stressing is what the commandment of God states and that is “thou shatt not”:

1. Make
2. Bow down
3. Pray to

any images or anything that is in

1. The earth
2. The waters under the earth
   3 Heaven

I hope I have made myself clearer on these points.

The Commandment prohibits the worship of false gods. ‘you will have no other gods before me’
Making, bowing, praying are fine in themselves if the person is not worshipping a false god.
:bowdown:

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Pat, let me assure you, although I am a member of the SDA church, that which I am presenting has not be coming from what they have taught be. Believe me when I say that I find that the teaching on this subject is, how shall I say this kindly of my own church, somewhat lacking and I believe, displeasing to God. Nough said.

Ok, let me clearify myself before I continue on. I am NOT accusing any members of the CC of:

1. Believing that the Images used in the CC are their gods
2. Worship these images.

What I am stressing is what the commandment of God states and that is “thou shatt not”:

1. Make
2. Bow down
3. Pray to

any images or anything that is in

1. The earth
2. The waters under the earth
   3 Heaven

I hope I have made myself clearer on these points.

Yes that is clear.

So now I don’t know what the issue is that we are discussing, unless you believe that art/images of Christianity should be totally prohibited.

I think of the lovely and beautiful works/paintings/images by SDA artists such as Harry Anderson, etc.

So are you opposed to images of Jesus, angels, etc.?

God bless all!!!

 

[wisdomseeker]

Sorry, I don’t mean to sound sarcastic and this is not entended to be so. But, does this mean that we are now allowed to do what God forbade the Isrealites to do? I seem to remember reading in John’s writing that we were to “Keep yourselves from Idols.”

Reread my post, I believe you will find I’ve already explained that.

Where have I EVERY stated in this thread that you believed your “ICONS” are your gods? I only stated that images should not be used in any sort of worship, even to God.

Let’s reveiw that commandment again, shall we?

Exodus 20:2-7

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before be. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. For I am the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Point 1 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them

By definition a “graven image” is a statue. Please feel free to correct me. And when God says “any” or “anything” I believe that is exactly what he means. Now then, he all so mentions were those “any” or “anythings” are located: “heaven” or “earth” whether “in” the “earth” or “in” the “waters under” the “earth”. I don’t see where he mention anything about recognizing them as gods, though the implication is at the beginning of the commandment. HIs commandment is not, “Thou shalt not bow down to them as gods”. It is “Thou shalt not bow down to them.” period end of story. NO BOWING DOWN TO IMAGES. For that matter he stress that we aren’t even to pray to these images.

I ask you, do the images that the CC uses resemble anything “in” the “earth” or “in heaven”? The proclaimed purpose of these images is NOT the issue, the issue is the commandment of God. Facts are that the Church had no images that were bowed to nor prayed before until three centuries after its establishment. And as time past more and more imagery was added. As I have no references with me at this time I will have to defer to you’re upcoming demand for said documents until a later time.

there is what you are implying here. and what i am saying to you is this. where are Catholics making these images as gods to them. because that is what God is telling the Jews, not make images to worship as gods.

:byzsoc:

 

[Benjamin8o8]

Pat, let me assure you, although I am a member of the SDA church, that which I am presenting has not be coming from what they have taught be. Believe me when I say that I find that the teaching on this subject is, how shall I say this kindly of my own church, somewhat lacking and I believe, displeasing to God. Nough said.

Ok, let me clearify myself before I continue on. I am NOT accusing any members of the CC of:

1. Believing that the Images used in the CC are their gods
2. Worship these images.

What I am stressing is what the commandment of God states and that is “thou shatt not”:

1. Make
2. Bow down
3. Pray to

any images or anything that is in

1. The earth
2. The waters under the earth
   3 Heaven

I hope I have made myself clearer on these points.

Does this mean that people in Japan and elsewhere worship eachother when they bow down to each other out of respect? I suppose bowing down at that certain time when God told Moses not to do it literally meant to worship. I bow down to my Holy Mary statue all the time, I kiss it and adore it when I sing praises. I do know its merly a statue but believe it or not, I witnessed 2 miracles regarding this statue. But than again, the statue is STILL a statue. Its not divine in any way, nothing will happen to my faith if anything horrible happens to it. But you know what, it is a representation of our Blessed Heavenly Mother, and the stuate is merely a reminder of Her Holy appearance.

You really need to know why God said not to “bow down” to statues at that time, its because when idolators commonly bowed down to their man-made gods, it was a sign of worshipping. As time passed, bowing down could mean a lot of other things. So saying we Catholics disobey Gods law because we bow down to statue is taking verses out of context. Next thing you know, you will hear somebody say that Christianity can`t offer salvation, because Jesus Christ Himself said “Salvation comes from the Jews”.

I am also pretty sure that other prophets in the Old Testament made images to focus on heavenly things. I just need to re-read the article where I read that. But I think you get my point.

Oh, and what do you mean we “pray to” statues? Are you inisiting that we believe the statues are divine? Or do you know we only “Look” at the statues when we pray, we don`t litterly pray to them.

 

[twb1621]

It was not my intent to ignore responses, and I hope that this was understood. I believe I covered that main issue that was being brought up and that was the misconception that I was directing the issue toward the much battered Sabbath and as there were several posts that specifically pointed to this issue my desire was to put an end to that supposition as quickly as possible. To have responded to each post would have meant repeating the same points numerous times thus waisting posting space and opportunities. Thank you for your concern. I would like to say that this has been one of the most civil and pleasant discussions I have been involved with in quite some time.

UNDERSTOOD AND THANK YOU…

 

[twb1621]

Pat, let me assure you, although I am a member of the SDA church, that which I am presenting has not be coming from what they have taught be. Believe me when I say that I find that the teaching on this subject is, how shall I say this kindly of my own church, somewhat lacking and I believe, displeasing to God. Nough said.

Ok, let me clearify myself before I continue on. I am NOT accusing any members of the CC of:

1. Believing that the Images used in the CC are their gods
2. Worship these images.

What I am stressing is what the commandment of God states and that is “thou shatt not”:

1. Make
2. Bow down
3. Pray to

any images or anything that is in

1. The earth
2. The waters under the earth
   3 Heaven

I hope I have made myself clearer on these points.

Helpful insight;

The real purpose of the commandment is to steer the people of God away from idolatry, that is, the worship of any false god. Consider the following passages:
“For they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods; then the anger of the Lord would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly. But thus shall you deal with them: you shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire” (Deut. 7:4-5).
“And the people of Israel did secretly against the Lord their God things that were not right. They built for themselves high places at all their towns, from watchtower to fortified city; they set up for themselves pillars and Asherim on every high hill and under every green tree; and there they burned incense on all the high places, as the nations did whom the Lord
carried away before them. And they did wicked things, provoking the Lord to anger, and they served idols, of which the Lord had said to them, ‘You shall not do this’” (2 Kgs. 17:9-12).
God obviously abhors idolatry; however, in the same Scriptures we see the Jews making statues for legitimate religious purposes, and under God’s command:
“And the Lord said to Moses, Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live” (Num. 21:8-9).
When the bronze serpent was later adored by the Jews, rather than simply venerated, it was destroyed:

“He [Hezekiah] removed the high places, and broke the pillars, and cut down the Asherah. And he broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the people of Israel had burned incense to it; it was called Nehushtan” (2 Kgs 18:4).
In the construction of the Ark of the Covenant God gave the following
instructions:
“You shall make two cherubim of gold; you shall make them of hammered work, at the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub at the one end, and one cherub at the other; of one piece with the mercy seat you shall make the cherubim at its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings. They shall
face one to another; the faces of the cherubim shall be turned toward the mercy seat” (Exod. 25:18-20). The Temple of Jerusalem was thoroughly decorated with statues of all
kinds: “In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high” (1 Kgs. 6:23). “The height of one cherub was ten cubits, and so was that of the other
cherub. He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the house; the wings of the cherubim were spread out so that a wing of one was touching the one wall, and a wing of the other cherub was touching the other wall; their other wings toward the center of the house were touching wing to wing” (1 Kgs. 6:26-27).
“…on the borders that were set in the frames were lions, oxen, and cherubim. On the frames, both above and below the lions and oxen, there were wreaths of beveled work” (1 Kgs. 7:29).
“…for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord” (1 Chron. 28:18).

More information at
lumenverum.org/apologetics/DefendtheFaith/page295.html

 

[Stephen_C]

Does this mean that people in Japan and elsewhere worship eachother when they bow down to each other out of respect?

Well, yes….if they are Catholic. That is what Catholic’s do you know (bow down and worship everthing in sight) Now if they are not Catholic, then no it is not worship. Only Catholic’s can do these things (bowing causing auto worship) It seems that by default when a Catholic bows down, what is before them is being worshiped by that Catholic. We just don’t know better. Go figure……

That it why it so great to have our non-Catholic brothers and sisters remind us that is what we are doing…would not have known that if it was not for these kindly folks. like when I bow down at night before my bed I thought to pray to Jesus giving him thanks for this day and hope for another if that is his will. I did not have a clue as to that was not what I was doing, but instead I was worshiping my bed. (non-Catholics can do this with out causing the bed worship thing) All I can say is thanks for pointing this out to me. So hopefully they will let know how they can bow down before something and not be worpshipping what is before them…like we Catholic (only) seem to do…

 

[wisdomseeker]

:byzsoc:

Well, yes….if they are Catholic. That is what Catholic’s do you know (bow down and worship everthing in sight) Now if they are not Catholic, then no it is not worship. Only Catholic’s can do these things (bowing causing auto worship) It seems that by default when a Catholic bows down, what is before them is being worshiped by that Catholic. We just don’t know better. Go figure……

That it why it so great to have our non-Catholic brothers and sisters remind us that is what we are doing…would not have known that if it was not for these kindly folks. like when I bow down at night before my bed I thought to pray to Jesus giving him thanks for this day and hope for another if that is his will. I did not have a clue as to that was not what I was doing, but instead I was worshiping my bed. (non-Catholics can do this with out causing the bed worship thing) All I can say is thanks for pointing this out to me. So hopefully they will let know how they can bow down before something and not be worpshipping what is before them…like we Catholic (only) seem to do…

yes. becarefull when you bow or kneel make sure there is nothing in front of you, not even a wall like that of Israel where they gather in front of a wall like they are worshipping the wall, only that we as Catholic would not consider that is worshipping the wall but may be non Catholic probably do.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

:byzsoc:

yes. becarefull when you bow or kneel make sure there is nothing in front of you, not even a wall like that of Israel where they gather in front of a wall like they are worshipping the wall, only that we as Catholic would not consider that is worshipping the wall but may be non Catholic probably do.

we`re in trouble

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Yes that is clear.

So now I don’t know what the issue is that we are discussing, unless you believe that art/images of Christianity should be totally prohibited.

I think of the lovely and beautiful works/paintings/images by SDA artists such as Harry Anderson, etc.

So are you opposed to images of Jesus, angels, etc.?

God bless all!!!

Absolutely not. I think you can agree that an “Image” does not necessarily become an Idol until it is bowed down to at that point it them becomes an Idol. To answer another poster, many images do have purposes, but that purpose changes significantly with one bows down to it and prays before it. It is how we interact with these images that does or does not make it an image. When considering whether or not we are treating a representation of something or someone we must ask ourselves "How do I veiw this image and what it represents.’ If we view it a equal to or as important as God then it becomes a god. Putting it on the same level of God is the same as Satan trying putting himself on the God’s level or in God’s place.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

there is what you are implying here. and what i am saying to you is this. where are Catholics making these images as gods to them. because that is what God is telling the Jews, not make images to worship as gods.

:byzsoc:

I ask you, where did the CC images originate? When did they originate? The answers to these questions are as important as the subject itself.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Does this mean that people in Japan and elsewhere worship eachother when they bow down to each other out of respect? I suppose bowing down at that certain time when God told Moses not to do it literally meant to worship.

Try this interesting excersize, Go through your bible and see how often bowing down is equated with worship then ask me that question.

I bow down to my Holy Mary statue all the time, I kiss it and adore it when I sing praises. I do know its merly a statue but believe it or not, I witnessed 2 miracles regarding this statue. But than again, the statue is STILL a statue. Its not divine in any way, nothing will happen to my faith if anything horrible happens to it. But you know what, it is a representation of our Blessed Heavenly Mother, and the stuate is merely a reminder of Her Holy appearance.

I cannot nor will I judge your interactions with your statue of “Mary”, however what you discribe sound very much like worship or at least, over excuberant veneration. As for the miracles I can niether say nha or ya because I did not witness them and therefore must take your word for them. But we are cautioned to be wary of false miracles. Did you test them for truth or did you just take them for granted because they came from the statue? As for your personal feelings concerning your faith should anything happen to your statue, I have read many many post abhoring the treatment of such statues as if these were “Mary” herself. I too abhor blatant and wantant vandalism of private property, but much of what I have seen here, when it come to “holy” statues of the CC go beyond the average outrage.

You really need to know why God said not to “bow down” to statues at that time, its because when idolators commonly bowed down to their man-made gods, it was a sign of worshipping. As time passed, bowing down could mean a lot of other things. So saying we Catholics disobey Gods law because we bow down to statue is taking verses out of context. Next thing you know, you will hear somebody say that Christianity can`t offer salvation, because Jesus Christ Himself said “Salvation comes from the Jews”.

Please, if a protestant were to make this sort of comment he/she would be bombarded with all sorts of sarcastic comments. We do know what God meant by “bow down” by how he punished those who did. And we need to realize that this “law” was not only meant for the Jews but for everyone that would seek him and be obedient to him. When it comes to worshipping or having a relationship to God, bowing down does not change it’s meaning. As for your statement concerning salvation, that is totally ludicrous (sic). To say such a thing is to totally distort what Jesus was saying, however, the commandment concerning idols is clear and there can be no mistaking what God MEANT. It is only man who wishes to do things HIS way that twists the meaning of God’s words to suit his greedy ambitions to be like God.

I am also pretty sure that other prophets in the Old Testament made images to focus on heavenly things. I just need to re-read the article where I read that. But I think you get my point.

I don’t know what Bible you’ve been reading, but I’m made an extensive study on this and nowhere, anywhere, in it have I ever seen mention of any Prophet utilizing “images” to focus on “heavenly”, I assume you are refering to God here, things. Why or how could they seeing as they did not know what God looked like?

Oh, and what do you mean we “pray to” statues? Are you insisting that we believe the statues are divine? Or do you know we only “Look” at the statues when we pray, we don`t litterly pray to them.

It is my understanding that you use your statues to “focus” on that which the statue represents, please look up the dictionary meaning of idol. Even if you don’t pray to the statues, you pray to those that the statues represent, in essence, turning these representives into Idols themselves. You have already stated that you pray to Mary, you adore her as if she were divine. Are you now saying she isn’t? Do you now wish to contradict yourself. Is this divine “adoration” something the Apostles taught? If it is so important where did they write that it was? They quibbled over circumcision as if it were a big deal, wouldn’t the divine nature of Mary been an even bigger deal? Something is not right here and the something is the nature in which statues are used with in any religious organization.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Helpful insight;

The real purpose of the commandment is to steer the people of God away from idolatry, that is, the worship of any false god. Consider the following passages:
“For they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods; then the anger of the Lord would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly. But thus shall you deal with them: you shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire” (Deut. 7:4-5).

If you also read the opening versed for this quote you see that this is a warning for the nation of Isreal not to intermingle with the nations that they are to conquer but rather to distroy them utterly. As latter reading will reveal, Isreal failed to heed God’s warning and what he told them would happen did happen. He also gave them insturctions to destroy everything having to do with these nation’s idols including casting away all the gold and silver that was used to overlay these idols, their temples and their alters.

“And the people of Israel did secretly against the Lord their God things that were not right. They built for themselves high places at all their towns, from watchtower to fortified city; they set up for themselves pillars and Asherim on every high hill and under every green tree; and there they burned incense on all the high places, as the nations did whom the Lord
carried away before them. And they did wicked things, provoking the Lord to anger, and they served idols, of which the Lord had said to them, ‘You shall not do this’” (2 Kgs. 17:9-12).

My point, does this not pertain to us today?

God obviously abhors idolatry; however, in the same Scriptures we see the Jews making statues for legitimate religious purposes, and under God’s command:
“And the Lord said to Moses, Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live” (Num. 21:8-9).
When the bronze serpent was later adored by the Jews, rather than simply venerated, it was destroyed:

You seem to be making my argument for me. Yes, the original intent of the Bronze serpent had been perverted, the Jews turned it into an Idol. I find it interesting that you have made a distinction between “adored” and “venerated” although there is no such distinction in any dictionary I’ve been able to access. An interesting distinction indeed.

“He [Hezekiah] removed the high places, and broke the pillars, and cut down the Asherah. And he broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the people of Israel had burned incense to it; it was called Nehushtan” (2 Kgs 18:4).
In the construction of the Ark of the Covenant God gave the following
instructions:
“You shall make two cherubim of gold; you shall make them of hammered work, at the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub at the one end, and one cherub at the other; of one piece with the mercy seat you shall make the cherubim at its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings. They shall
face one to another; the faces of the cherubim shall be turned toward the mercy seat” (Exod. 25:18-20). The Temple of Jerusalem was thoroughly decorated with statues of all
kinds: “In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high” (1 Kgs. 6:23). “The height of one cherub was ten cubits, and so was that of the other
cherub. He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the house; the wings of the cherubim were spread out so that a wing of one was touching the one wall, and a wing of the other cherub was touching the other wall; their other wings toward the center of the house were touching wing to wing” (1 Kgs. 6:26-27).
“…on the borders that were set in the frames were lions, oxen, and cherubim. On the frames, both above and below the lions and oxen, there were wreaths of beveled work” (1 Kgs. 7:29).
“…for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord” (1 Chron. 28:18).

More information at
lumenverum.org/apologetics/DefendtheFaith/page295.html

I believe I addressed this issue of the Cherubims earlier. Again, they we not worshipped, nor were they bowed down to nor were they prayed to and thus do not fit the criteria of idols. And I asked, could it be that God wished to give the Preists the ministered in the Sanctuary an idea of what heaven looked like?

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Well, yes….if they are Catholic. That is what Catholic’s do you know (bow down and worship everthing in sight) Now if they are not Catholic, then no it is not worship. Only Catholic’s can do these things (bowing causing auto worship) It seems that by default when a Catholic bows down, what is before them is being worshiped by that Catholic. We just don’t know better. Go figure……

Sacrcasm noted:shrug: but consider the following

That it why it so great to have our non-Catholic brothers and sisters remind us that is what we are doing…would not have known that if it was not for these kindly folks. like when I bow down at night before my bed I thought to pray to Jesus giving him thanks for this day and hope for another if that is his will. I did not have a clue as to that was not what I was doing, but instead I was worshiping my bed. (non-Catholics can do this with out causing the bed worship thing) All I can say is thanks for pointing this out to me. So hopefully they will let know how they can bow down before something and not be worpshipping what is before them…like we Catholic (only) seem to do…

What do you pray when you bow down to your bed.
“Oh, blessed bed grant me this night a surine (sic) sleep. Send the Lord in heaven a message that I need this that and the other thing. Bed watch over me and keep me save while I am away from you during the day.”

Yeah, Idol worship. (I don’t like to be, but I can be sarcastic too.)

 

[wisdomseeker]

I ask you, where did the CC images originate? When did they originate? The answers to these questions are as important as the subject itself.

i asked you first.

i am waiting for your answer.

:byzsoc:

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

i asked you first.

i am waiting for your answer.

:byzsoc:

Actually here is what you asked.

are you confused on this issue?

please show us where the CC teaches us to make images of any kind and then worship them as God. show us please.
you misunderstand what God is trying to say. that is what He is saying, since the Israelites had come out of Egypt where many images were worshipped as God, the Lord is teaching them not to do the same.

the Lord Himself commanded them to make images of Angels, remember the snake of bronze? was it worshipped or just used for a purpose?

it is a shame you people being misled by your own understanding of the Word are also misleading others who also have little understanding of the Word.

again, i ask you where does Catholics ever used the images, statues of Saints or others and said that these are our gods.
\QUOTE]

And I responded, Now what I asked is for YOU to research where these images came from and when and who authorized them. If you need me to tell you then I must assume that you are ignorant of your own church history.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Actually here is what you asked.

are you confused on this issue?

please show us where the CC teaches us to make images of any kind and then worship them as God. show us please.
you misunderstand what God is trying to say. that is what He is saying, since the Israelites had come out of Egypt where many images were worshipped as God, the Lord is teaching them not to do the same.

the Lord Himself commanded them to make images of Angels, remember the snake of bronze? was it worshipped or just used for a purpose?

it is a shame you people being misled by your own understanding of the Word are also misleading others who also have little understanding of the Word.

again, i ask you where does Catholics ever used the images, statues of Saints or others and said that these are our gods.
\QUOTE]

And I responded, Now what I asked is for YOU to research where these images came from and when and who authorized them. If you need me to tell you then I must assume that you are ignorant of your own church history.

and i ask you again. show us where Catholics use these images as gods to worship. you have not been able to answer. why?

:knight2: :knight2:

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

and i ask you again. show us where Catholics use these images as gods to worship. you have not been able to answer. why?

:knight2: :knight2:

Post #157 Please read this one again. I’ve have referred you to my previous posts several times, WHY do you refuse to go back and read what I have written?

 

[Stephen_C]

Sacrcasm noted:shrug: but consider the following

What do you pray when you bow down to your bed.
“Oh, blessed bed grant me this night a surine (sic) sleep. Send the Lord in heaven a message that I need this that and the other thing. Bed watch over me and keep me save while I am away from you during the day.”

Yeah, Idol worship. (I don’t like to be, but I can be sarcastic too.)

Ok,
Not understanding what you are getting at here. I was going on the asumption from some non-Catholic Christians that we pray to objects and not to God. It is perception. If you look at a picture of a non-Catholic Christian praying while hugging a bible, before the Cross, his Pastor, or prayer leader, (and bowing towards it) what do you see? If you see a Catholic do the same, what do you see? So if a Catholic is praying before the statue of Jesus, or anyone of our great Saints, the Cross. As well our Pope (head Pastor) What do you see? How can/why do they assume we are praying to the stone, or wood, paper, or flesh? I don’t recall any of my prayers starting off with “Oh wood, paper, stone, or flesh I give thanks to………” Now if you have issues with asking those who have gone before us (Church Triumphant) to pray with me (a prayer partner in high places) Just as we ask our friends, family, etc to pray with/for us…Oh well….

 

[Benjamin8o8]

Try this interesting excersize, Go through your bible and see how often bowing down is equated with worship then ask me that question…

Let me ask you this. Why would God commend anybody not to bow down to anything?

I cannot nor will I judge your interactions with your statue of “Mary”, however what you discribe sound very much like worship or at least, over excuberant veneration. As for the miracles I can niether say nha or ya because I did not witness them and therefore must take your word for them. But we are cautioned to be wary of false miracles. Did you test them for truth or did you just take them for granted because they came from the statue? As for your personal feelings concerning your faith should anything happen to your statue, I have read many many post abhoring the treatment of such statues as if these were “Mary” herself. I too abhor blatant and wantant vandalism of private property, but much of what I have seen here, when it come to “holy” statues of the CC go beyond the average outrage…

The Miracle I can easily brodcast on the internet, but I dont know if my dad would be comfortable with it. It was a picture with my dad and my little brother, while behind them was my Mary Statue. And a beam of light reflects on Marys head and points to a crucifix that was on the wall. You cant see the crucifix on the picture, but it was on the wall when I was still living in America. Miracles like this happen frequently in the Universal Church, its not to trick us, its too increase our faith. Like I said, statues are not devine, they are not our gods, what else do you want me to confess??

Please, if a protestant were to make this sort of comment he/she would be bombarded with all sorts of sarcastic comments. We do know what God meant by “bow down” by how he punished those who did. And we need to realize that this “law” was not only meant for the Jews but for everyone that would seek him and be obedient to him. When it comes to worshipping or having a relationship to God, bowing down does not change it’s meaning. As for your statement concerning salvation, that is totally ludicrous (sic). To say such a thing is to totally distort what Jesus was saying, however, the commandment concerning idols is clear and there can be no mistaking what God MEANT. It is only man who wishes to do things HIS way that twists the meaning of God’s words to suit his greedy ambitions to be like God…

There is a reason why he punished those that bowed down, and grants us miracles when WE bow down.

It is my understanding that you use your statues to “focus” on that which the statue represents, please look up the dictionary meaning of idol. Even if you don’t pray to the statues, you pray to those that the statues represent, in essence, turning these representives into Idols themselves. You have already stated that you pray to Mary, you adore her as if she were divine. Are you now saying she isn’t? Do you now wish to contradict yourself. Is this divine “adoration” something the Apostles taught? If it is so important where did they write that it was? They quibbled over circumcision as if it were a big deal, wouldn’t the divine nature of Mary been an even bigger deal? Something is not right here and the something is the nature in which statues are used with in any religious organization.

Yes,we ask for their intercession, no big deal.