hitler

[Cricket2]

Is Hitler in Hell?

None of this can know the answer here. I have wondered if he ever felt contrite about anything he did. Only God can know this.

Since no one is without sin it is probably best not to speculate on this or to decide on our own.

 

[PietroPaolo]

As everyone already said we just don’t know. But we can speculate a bit.

The only thing that lands someone in Hell is dying outside the state of grace, i.e. dying in a state of mortal sin. Hitler, and everyone else but Christ and Mary, is born outside the state of grace thanks to original sin. The ordinary way to have original sin removed is baptism (water, fire, or desire). So, was Hitler baptized? Yes.

The next question is whether he sinned mortally after his baptism. I believe Hitler was baptized as an infant, so the answer here also is yes b/c we are all sinners (cf. 1 Jn 1:8) and because he was a public sinner, we all know his many crimes.

The only way to have a post-bapismal mortal sin forgiven is to either 1) go to sacramental confession or 2) make an act of perfect contrition. Hitler wasn’t a practicing Catholic and he didn’t have access to a priest while he was in the Bunker under Berlin for the last several months of his life, so we can pretty much cross option 1 off. That leaves option 2 - sorrow for his sins, not out of fear of Hell, but b/c Hitler loved God. He would have to be sorry for all his sins, including killing innocent Jews, which he seemed unrepentant of until the last.

To further complicate matters, Hitler was a suicide. Suicide itself is grave matter and, under normal circumstances, is a mortal sin (one which leaves the sinner no time to repent). This could be grounds to assume his damnation, but Hitler seems to have been out of his mind by the time he killed himself, which would remove one of the three conditions necessary for mortal sin - consent. So the suicide might not be enough to damn him, although it might have been - we can’t say.

However, even if Hitler was out of his mind for some extended period toward the end of his life, out of his mind enough to not be culpable for his sins, he still would have had to of made an act of perfect contrition before going insane for his pre-insanity mortal sins to be forgiven.

All of this is on top of Hitler being “outside the Church” and of course we all know extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Thus Hitler would have to meet additional requirements (so to speak) to avoid damnation. According to Vatican Council 2, people outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church *"also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet **sincerely seek God *and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience." (LG16). So Hitler would have to have 1) not known about the Church and Jesus (if he wasn’t Christian), 2) not been at fault for his not knowing, i.e. been invincibly ignorant, 3) sincerely strove to seek God and do His will by his deeds.

All in all, while we can’t know, I think it looks pretty bad for Hitler. Not because what he did was so evil (Christ’s sacrifice is enough to blot out any and every sin any of us can commit) but because the likelihood of true contrition seems to be almost nil. All that being said, because we don’t know for sure, we ought to pray for the man and all others who choose to sin against the All Holy One.

Requiem aeternam dona eis Domine
et lux perpetua luceat eis
Requiescant in Pace.
Amen.

 

[PietroPaolo]

The only problem I have is with the alternative to heaven, I just wished it could have been more clement and merciful. It’s literally an eternity in a Club Med with your loved ones or a bleak Gulag on your own or with evil and loveless people around you.

What is Heaven?
Ultimately, not “club med with loved ones” but being in the presence of God. Being with God.

What is God?
The source of all goodness, all light, all love, all hope, and eternal life

What is Hell?
Not being in Heaven.
But Heaven is being with God.
Therefore, Hell is not being with God.
But God is the source of all goodness, all light, all love, all hope and eternal life.
Therefore, being without God is being w/out all goodness, all light, all love, all hope, and eternal life
But Hell is being without God.
Therefore, Hell is being w/out all goodness, light, love, hope, and eternal life
Therefore, Hell is evil, dark, hateful, hopeless, and eternal death

Hell can’t be anything less than what it is. It simply is the absence of God. It’s not the difference between a Gulag and Club-Med. It’s the difference between being with God and without Him.

May God bless you can keep your soul unto everlasting life. Amen.

 

[on_the_hill]

Ok, fair enough. We don’t know. I asked, using Hitler as an example, because although we believe in the existence of hell, there seems to be a very strong urge to not want to believe that anyone is actually evil enough to qualify for it.

 

[dshix]

What is Heaven?
Ultimately, not “club med with loved ones” but being in the presence of God. Being with God.

What is God?
The source of all goodness, all light, all love, all hope, and eternal life

What is Hell?
Not being in Heaven.
But Heaven is being with God.
Therefore, Hell is not being with God.
But God is the source of all goodness, all light, all love, all hope and eternal life.
Therefore, being without God is being w/out all goodness, all light, all love, all hope, and eternal life
But Hell is being without God.
Therefore, Hell is being w/out all goodness, light, love, hope, and eternal life
Therefore, Hell is evil, dark, hateful, hopeless, and eternal death

That’s a beautiful way to condense it all into a relatively short explanation. Well done.

 

[PietroPaolo]

That’s a beautiful way to condense it all into a relatively short explanation. Well done.

Thanks

 

[BarbG]

If Hitler is not in hell, then no one should be there-- can you think of a more HORRIBLE person???

 

[PietroPaolo]

Ok, fair enough. We don’t know. I asked, using Hitler as an example, because although we believe in the existence of hell, there seems to be a very strong urge to not want to believe that anyone is actually evil enough to qualify for it.

A better test case might be Judas Iscariot. After all, Jesus did say, “woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” (Matt 26:24) Now being in Heaven, in eternal bliss, would be better than not being born no matter how painful, no matter how lengthy, purgatory would have been for Judas, so it seems quite plain that Jesus revealed that Judas would be damned.

 

[dshix]

If Hitler is not in hell, then no one should be there-- can you think of a more HORRIBLE person???

Whether he was a horrible person or not is completely irrelevant to the question.

If Hitler repented before his death, that is, he really and truly felt sorry for his sins and was agonized by the offence given to God, he would go to Heaven, after a (presumably) very LONG stay in Purgatory.

This goes for anyone in the world. One mortal sin, or a billion mortal sins, will send you to Hell. But ONE sincere repentance of all your sins AFTER the doing of the sins and BEFORE death, means salvation, because God is infinitely forgiving.

 

[Della]

Ok, fair enough. We don’t know. I asked, using Hitler as an example, because although we believe in the existence of hell, there seems to be a very strong urge to not want to believe that anyone is actually evil enough to qualify for it.

Well, it’s not a matter of who is evil enough to qualify for hell. Most of us have committed mortal sins, so most of us qualify on that score alone.

What we’re saying isn’t that Hitler didn’t commit atrocities. We know he did. What we’re saying is we don’t know the state of his soul upon death.

Jesus died to save the very worst sinners, not just those of us who haven’t committed atrocities. Take Saul for an example. He was willing to commit men and women to prison and even death for nothing worse than believing in and practicing their faith–Christianity. And yet, when Jesus appeared to him in a vision, he repented of his vile wickedness. He might not have, and instead of us celebrating one of the greatest saints, we would be remembering one of the Church’s worst persecutors.

We simply cannot say who is in hell. It’s not because certain infamous people may not have deserved it, they did. But, so do we. We’re only saying that God is their judge not us for they could have repented at the very moment of death–making perfect contrition for their sins and now be in heaven. We just can’t say one way or the other.

 

[on_the_hill]

we’re saying is we don’t know the state of his soul upon death.

Thank you.

 

[Robertanthony]

There seems to be a contradiction in your view of divine justice and mercy:

On the one hand you claim God is infinitely just and on the other you imply He is not infinitely merciful. The answer is surely in the prayer Jesus taught us:

“Forgive us** as** we forgive…”

In other words our destiny does depend on our decision and is self-imposed. There is nothing sugar-coated about that!

I didn’t say God is infinitely just, I said he’s sovereign and being such can do whatever he wants. I understand that not everyone can go to Heaven, I also know what it’s like to hate myself, I also know what it’s like to not want to be alive, I know what it’s like to always have a bleak future to look forward to, I know what it’s like to be hopeless, not utterly of course but hopelesss enough to try and off myself, you cannot not be cruel and sustain people to live constantly in a harrowing state of mind, with physical pain to boot, which is what God does to the denizens of hell. A lot of people create a lot of suffering around them, a lot of unknown tyrants who creat a lot of suffering in their families, perhaps the most vicious deserve a good 100,000 years of hell, then let them cease to exist. Out of 100 people who die and who go to hell, how many knew for a fact where they were going once they died? So much for “decision” and “self-imposed”. That’s the problem with God and with hell, when you find out you have an eternity of agony and torment before you, it’s too late to do anything about it. That’s God’s peculiar justice: a man sins once and everyone down the millenia is born with original sin through no personal fault of their own; one solitary act, one mortal sin that you didn’t repent of the right way, eternal hell to pay,an infinite punishment for finite actions. God is omnipotent, omniscient and sovereign from what I can see. We’re not sure yet whether the souls of aborted babies are in heaven or in hell, so much for infinite mercy. It’s hard to think of God as love and benevolent when you know the idea of eternal misery for wayward children came from his mind. Annihilation would have been God’s choice had he been a loving God. God is impassible, love is incompatible with impassibility. You’re a mother of 5, you learn that 3 of your kids die in a car crash, you don’t shed a tear, you go on doing what you normally do, you don’t give the death of your children a second thought, you have a good time in the evening, a lovely meal with the rest of the family and sleep like a baby. That’s not love, that’s indifference. God is indifferent to the tragedy of the people who are cursed by him, hence he is not a God of love. He prefers that you or I go to heaven, but is left unfazed either way. Sometimes when a mad dog is out of control, bites everyone including its master, the only loving thing to do is to put an end to its existence, not try to punish it knowing it’s un teachable. The damned did not qualify for heaven, they’re forever excluded from heaven, nothing will change them, think of the helpless babies they once were and make them cease to exist.

 

[fred_conty]

I didn’t say God is infinitely just, I said he’s sovereign and being such can do whatever he wants. I understand that not everyone can go to Heaven, I also know what it’s like to hate myself, I also know what it’s like to not want to be alive, I know what it’s like to always have a bleak future to look forward to, I know what it’s like to be hopeless, not utterly of course but hopelesss enough to try and off myself, you cannot not be cruel and sustain people to live constantly in a harrowing state of mind, with physical pain to boot, which is what God does to the denizens of hell. A lot of people create a lot of suffering around them, a lot of unknown tyrants who creat a lot of suffering in their families, perhaps the most vicious deserve a good 100,000 years of hell, then let them cease to exist. Out of 100 people who die and who go to hell, how many knew for a fact where they were going once they died? So much for “decision” and “self-imposed”. That’s the problem with God and with hell, when you find out you have an eternity of agony and torment before you, it’s too late to do anything about it. That’s God’s peculiar justice: a man sins once and everyone down the millenia is born with original sin through no personal fault of their own; one solitary act, one mortal sin that you didn’t repent of the right way, eternal hell to pay,an infinite punishment for finite actions. God is omnipotent, omniscient and sovereign from what I can see. We’re not sure yet whether the souls of aborted babies are in heaven or in hell, so much for infinite mercy. It’s hard to think of God as love and benevolent when you know the idea of eternal misery for wayward children came from his mind. Annihilation would have been God’s choice had he been a loving God. God is impassible, love is incompatible with impassibility. You’re a mother of 5, you learn that 3 of your kids die in a car crash, you don’t shed a tear, you go on doing what you normally do, you don’t give the death of your children a second thought, you have a good time in the evening, a lovely meal with the rest of the family and sleep like a baby. That’s not love, that’s indifference. God is indifferent to the tragedy of the people who are cursed by him, hence he is not a God of love. He prefers that you or I go to heaven, but is left unfazed either way. Sometimes when a mad dog is out of control, bites everyone including its master, the only loving thing to do is to put an end to its existence, not try to punish it knowing it’s un teachable. The damned did not qualify for heaven, they’re forever excluded from heaven, nothing will change them, think of the helpless babies they once were and make them cease to exist.

God is love, so says St. John.

This is what I firmly believe.

No greater love does a man have than to lay down his life for his friends, so says Jesus.

This is what I firmly believe.

He could not do many miracles in that town because of their lack of faith, so the bible said.

I personally don’t want Hitler, Stalin, or Ivan the terrible, to be in hell, or anyone for that matter, irregardless of how aweful they have been.

Jesus dosen’t either. He is fair, loving, and giving. If there is a way, I’m sure he will offer it to them.

The rest we must trust in his love.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[wcknight]

Could it be possible that Hitler sincerely thought he was doing the right thing ? Like suicide terrorists, these nut cases believe they are committing atrocities for the greater good.

People who are truly deranged are not held accountable for their actions. The religious fanatic thinks they are defending their faith in some holy war. They expect a reward from God. A mortal sin requires that you are fully aware that what you are doing is gravely wrong, these folks believe they doing the right thing. Could Hitller possibly have thought that he was following the right path? A lot of racists and neo nazis still think this way. They invoke God just most normal folks. There are a boatload of delusional nut cases out there and most if not all believe they are doing what they are supposed to do.

 

[Robertanthony]

God is love, so says St. John.

This is what I firmly believe.

No greater love does a man have than to lay down his life for his friends, so says Jesus.

This is what I firmly believe.

He could not do many miracles in that town because of their lack of faith, so the bible said.

I personally don’t want Hitler, Stalin, or Ivan the terrible, to be in hell, or anyone for that matter, irregardless of how aweful they have been.

Jesus dosen’t either. He is fair, loving, and giving. If there is a way, I’m sure he will offer it to them.

The rest we must trust in his love.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

You have a good heart, fred. Thank you for your blessings. May God bless you as well.

 

[Robertanthony]

Could it be possible that Hitler sincerely thought he was doing the right thing ? Like suicide terrorists, these nut cases believe they are committing atrocities for the greater good.

People who are truly deranged are not held accountable for their actions. The religious fanatic thinks they are defending their faith in some holy war. They expect a reward from God. A mortal sin requires that you are fully aware that what you are doing is gravely wrong, these folks believe they doing the right thing. Could Hitller possibly have thought that he was following the right path? A lot of racists and neo nazis still think this way. They invoke God just most normal folks. There are a boatload of delusional nut cases out there and most if not all believe they are doing what they are supposed to do.

I’ve wondered the same thing, especially when i hear of very young suicide bombers in Muslim countries. Perhaps committing a mortal sin is not that hard, perhaps the standard for the knowledge that what you’re doing is wrong is much lower than what we tend to think.

 

[Mount_Carmel]

If Hitler is not in hell, then no one should be there-- can you think of a more HORRIBLE person???

There are probably quite a lot of ‘candidates’ who would draw a ‘dead heat’ in the ‘horrible stakes’, only they weren’t given the opportunity to go really global with such big numbers.
Mind you, Stalin seemed quite indulgent when it came to numbers.

 

[tonyrey]

Ok, fair enough. We don’t know. I asked, using Hitler as an example, because although we believe in the existence of hell, there seems to be a very strong urge to not want to believe that anyone is actually evil enough to qualify for it.

There are a fair number on this forum who believe Hitler does qualify.

 

[tonyrey]

I didn’t say God is infinitely just, I said he’s sovereign and being such can do whatever he wants. I understand that not everyone can go to Heaven, I also know what it’s like to hate myself, I also know what it’s like to not want to be alive, I know what it’s like to always have a bleak future to look forward to, I know what it’s like to be hopeless, not utterly of course but hopelesss enough to try and off myself, you cannot not be cruel and sustain people to live constantly in a harrowing state of mind, with physical pain to boot, which is what God does to the denizens of hell.

God is infinitely loving and merciful, is not cruel and does not “sustain people to live constantly in a harrowing state of mind, with physical pain to boot”.

A lot of people create a lot of suffering around them, a lot of unknown tyrants who creat a lot of suffering in their families, perhaps the most vicious deserve a good 100,000 years of hell, then let them cease to exist. Out of 100 people who die and who go to hell, how many knew for a fact where they were going once they died? So much for “decision” and “self-imposed”. That’s the problem with God and with hell, when you find out you have an eternity of agony and torment before you, it’s too late to do anything about it.

How do you justify that assumption?

That’s God’s peculiar justice: a man sins once and everyone down the millenia is born with original sin through no personal fault of their own; one solitary act, one mortal sin that you didn’t repent of the right way, eternal hell to pay,an infinite punishment for finite actions. God is omnipotent, omniscient and sovereign from what I can see. We’re not sure yet whether the souls of aborted babies are in heaven or in hell, so much for infinite mercy.

“peculiar justice” gives the game away!

It’s hard to think of God as love and benevolent when you know the idea of eternal misery for wayward children came from his mind. Annihilation would have been God’s choice had he been a loving God. God is impassible, love is incompatible with impassibility. You’re a mother of 5, you learn that 3 of your kids die in a car crash, you don’t shed a tear, you go on doing what you normally do, you don’t give the death of your children a second thought, you have a good time in the evening, a lovely meal with the rest of the family and sleep like a baby. That’s not love, that’s indifference. God is indifferent to the tragedy of the people who are cursed by him, hence he is not a God of love. He prefers that you or I go to heaven, but is left unfazed either way. Sometimes when a mad dog is out of control, bites everyone including its master, the only loving thing to do is to put an end to its existence, not try to punish it knowing it’s un teachable. The damned did not qualify for heaven, they’re forever excluded from heaven, nothing will change them, think of the helpless babies they once were and make them cease to exist.

This is the classic objection of the atheist based on the false assumption that we do not determine our own destiny - as if we are impotent cogs in a machine. What happened to free will??

 

[on_the_hill]

There are a fair number on this forum who believe Hitler does qualify.

I ought to have qualified the statement, as a fair number of people in the general public.