L
Lapell
Guest
I only heard of the Chief Rabbi of Rome, Rabbi Israel Zolli. I didn’t know there were others! Moreover, what’s the need to bring bitterness here? Are you our enemy? I didn’t think so…
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L
Lapell
Guest
How would YOU tell?You have evidence that they were killed ‘as Catholics’ or ‘as Poles who happened to be Catholics’?
L
Lapell
Guest
Kaninchen, since you kind of accused the Catholic Church (that would be the teaching Office) of having contributed in the making and the spreading of Antisemitism, you cannot just pass the bucket to us Catholics. Prove it since you’re the accuser, otherwise you appear like a mean politician, evasive in his/her answers but bold to accuse his/her adversaries for just any reason…Granted, it is correct and fair to say that Catholics were involved, some in a very large way. CAn it be said that the Catholic Church, through its teachings and doctrines, caused people to join along? Was Hitler evil because he was exposed to Catholic teaching, as some claim?
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Lapell
Guest
… and I am not interested in bashing a Jewess, a member of the elected people of God. I still want her to be fair in what she says, that’s all!
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Valke2
Guest
In July 1943, Mussolini was removed from power. In September, Germany occupied Italy and began deporting Jews to Auschwitz. THere were 45 days between Italy’s announcement of armistice and Germany’s occupation of Italy. During that time, many thought the repressive anti-Jewish laws that Mussolini had instituted would be revoked. During this time Father Tacchi Venturi met with the new Italian minister of the interior to propopse changes in the laws to benefit Jewish converts to Catholicism.
In his report of the meeting to Cardinal Magilone, Venturi explained that he had not “alluded in any way to the total abrogation of laws which, according to the principles and tradition of the Catholic Church, have some dispositions that should be abrogated but contain others worthy of confirmation.”
This statement was made after millions of Jews had already been murdered in Poland and in the Soviet Union, a fact that the Vatican was aware of. Yet somehow, they still approved the denial of full civil rights to Jews and their legal seperation from Christians. See ADSS, IX, doc. 317, Tacchi Venturi to Maglione, 8/29/43, 458-59.
In his report of the meeting to Cardinal Magilone, Venturi explained that he had not “alluded in any way to the total abrogation of laws which, according to the principles and tradition of the Catholic Church, have some dispositions that should be abrogated but contain others worthy of confirmation.”
This statement was made after millions of Jews had already been murdered in Poland and in the Soviet Union, a fact that the Vatican was aware of. Yet somehow, they still approved the denial of full civil rights to Jews and their legal seperation from Christians. See ADSS, IX, doc. 317, Tacchi Venturi to Maglione, 8/29/43, 458-59.
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Michael_Neal
Guest
Pick up a copy ofYou have evidence that they were killed ‘as Catholics’ or ‘as Poles who happened to be Catholics’?
Forget Not Love: The Passion of Maximilian Kolbe by Andre Frossard
The author is a survivor of the concentration camps himself. It describes the blatantly anti-catholic nature of the Nazis, how they payed particular attention to priests and mocked them, humiliated them and beat and killed them for the very fact they they were priests.
Kolbe and the Polish Martyrs were not killed for race, their were killed because they did not worship Hitler and the Nazi Party and the religion was a threat to them.
German Catholic were left alone for obvious reasons, not to turn the German population against them. They could get away with it in Poland though.
It was only a matter of time before the Nazis turned their sights to the Catholics in Germany, but probably not as long as the War was going on.
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Valke2
Guest
I’m not sure if Kannachin was heading in the same direction as this post. Anyway…
I understand how difficult it is for Catholics to deal with the Holocaust, the role played in it by Catholics and their Church, and how the Catholic history of antisemitism contributed to it all.
As James Carroll states in his book “Constantine’s Sword”, Church failures in the Holocaust are only the most recent and violent part of the story - the death camps are a culmination of two thousand years of entrenched anti-Judaism.
The problem originally was anti-Judaism - not a racial or political anti-semitism. Rather, a strong opposition to the religion of Judaism.
You can follow the trail… The anti-Jewish statements in the Gospels to Constantine’s transformation of the cross into the primary Christian symbol, and then transforming it further into a sword. The blood libels, scapegoating the jews. The ghettos.
Much of Christian history leading up to WWII was based on a belief that Jesus was in conflict with the Jews, which easily fueled persecuation against Jews. However, Jesus and his disciples were themselves Jews, making any conflict not a struggle between “you” and “us,” but an internal disagreement among us (Jews).
Moreover, the Christians failed to realize that there was no single religious entity known as “the Jews.” We have always been a wide variety of groups, with may different perspectives. Yet the Church insisted on perpetuating the myth that the jews, as a people, killed Christ. You can argue now that it was "only a few,’ etc., but that is not what the party line was for the 1900 years leading up to the holocaust. The reality is we were never a single force for any one group to oppose. At the same time, the Church turned the “jews” into just that.
Christians turned what was a sectarian conflict among Jews, into something described in the gospels as "the Jews” – a single group, wholly blameworthy, in an apparent attempt to gain favor among the Romans, the most likely group to have had any great interest in getting rid of Jesus. Once this particular perspective was in place, later Christians were able to scapegoat “the Jews” over and over:
In addtion to being made into a historical enemy, the Church made “the Jews” into the enemy of God. The negative against which every positive aspect of Christianity is defined. This demonization of Jews by the first-century followers of Jesus - themselves mostly Jews - and the sanctioning of that demonization in the canonizing of the Scriptures are what made this story murderous down the centuries.
I understand how difficult it is for Catholics to deal with the Holocaust, the role played in it by Catholics and their Church, and how the Catholic history of antisemitism contributed to it all.
As James Carroll states in his book “Constantine’s Sword”, Church failures in the Holocaust are only the most recent and violent part of the story - the death camps are a culmination of two thousand years of entrenched anti-Judaism.
The problem originally was anti-Judaism - not a racial or political anti-semitism. Rather, a strong opposition to the religion of Judaism.
You can follow the trail… The anti-Jewish statements in the Gospels to Constantine’s transformation of the cross into the primary Christian symbol, and then transforming it further into a sword. The blood libels, scapegoating the jews. The ghettos.
Much of Christian history leading up to WWII was based on a belief that Jesus was in conflict with the Jews, which easily fueled persecuation against Jews. However, Jesus and his disciples were themselves Jews, making any conflict not a struggle between “you” and “us,” but an internal disagreement among us (Jews).
Moreover, the Christians failed to realize that there was no single religious entity known as “the Jews.” We have always been a wide variety of groups, with may different perspectives. Yet the Church insisted on perpetuating the myth that the jews, as a people, killed Christ. You can argue now that it was "only a few,’ etc., but that is not what the party line was for the 1900 years leading up to the holocaust. The reality is we were never a single force for any one group to oppose. At the same time, the Church turned the “jews” into just that.
Christians turned what was a sectarian conflict among Jews, into something described in the gospels as "the Jews” – a single group, wholly blameworthy, in an apparent attempt to gain favor among the Romans, the most likely group to have had any great interest in getting rid of Jesus. Once this particular perspective was in place, later Christians were able to scapegoat “the Jews” over and over:
In addtion to being made into a historical enemy, the Church made “the Jews” into the enemy of God. The negative against which every positive aspect of Christianity is defined. This demonization of Jews by the first-century followers of Jesus - themselves mostly Jews - and the sanctioning of that demonization in the canonizing of the Scriptures are what made this story murderous down the centuries.
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Valke2
Guest
It is true that following the liberation f Rome, Jews began to acknowledge the compassion and help provided by Pope Pius XII during the Shoah. And this continued after the war ended. And while Golden Meir praised the Pope after his death for having “raised his voice in favor of the Jews”, she must have been referring to the claims of papal intervention on the Jew’s behalf. Because there had been no meaningful protest.
Whenever there’s a discussion on the Church’s responsibility for the Holocaust, all these and more are rightly mentioned by its defenders. However, expressions of gratitude are not proof of the truth of the Church’s claims. Just proof that jews believed those claims. The gratitude, I am sorry to say, was largely misplaced. While individual men and women of the Church deserve thanks, the pope had very little to do with their actions.
Jews who took shelter in Church institutions could not know why they were allowed to enter. They naturally assumed it was due to the pope’s intercession. It was not. Many would assume that no individual monastary, hospital or school would act without prior papal approval, etc. In fact, those individual’s were perhaps embarassed by the popes silence during the holocaust, and therefore were eager to share their credit with the Vatican.
The pope did not speak out against Italy’s anti-jewish laws.
The Vatican did almost nothing to provide extra food or medicene to the refugees of Ferramonti. Thank God for Father Lopiniot, not Pope Pius. Lopiniot did what he had to do to get private donations to help. Lopiniot did it all but gave credit to the pope when the truth was the pope had done nothing.
Just one example.
Also, it was good politics to thank the pope after WWII – to foster good will between jews and non-jews. After all, non-jews had almost succeeded in completely destroying us.
Gratitude from Jews after WWII proves nothing.
(Paraphrased from the book “Under His Very Window”)
Whenever there’s a discussion on the Church’s responsibility for the Holocaust, all these and more are rightly mentioned by its defenders. However, expressions of gratitude are not proof of the truth of the Church’s claims. Just proof that jews believed those claims. The gratitude, I am sorry to say, was largely misplaced. While individual men and women of the Church deserve thanks, the pope had very little to do with their actions.
Jews who took shelter in Church institutions could not know why they were allowed to enter. They naturally assumed it was due to the pope’s intercession. It was not. Many would assume that no individual monastary, hospital or school would act without prior papal approval, etc. In fact, those individual’s were perhaps embarassed by the popes silence during the holocaust, and therefore were eager to share their credit with the Vatican.
The pope did not speak out against Italy’s anti-jewish laws.
The Vatican did almost nothing to provide extra food or medicene to the refugees of Ferramonti. Thank God for Father Lopiniot, not Pope Pius. Lopiniot did what he had to do to get private donations to help. Lopiniot did it all but gave credit to the pope when the truth was the pope had done nothing.
Just one example.
Also, it was good politics to thank the pope after WWII – to foster good will between jews and non-jews. After all, non-jews had almost succeeded in completely destroying us.
Gratitude from Jews after WWII proves nothing.
(Paraphrased from the book “Under His Very Window”)
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Michael_Neal
Guest
This is blatantly false and so are the rest of your statements.I understand how difficult it is for Catholics to deal with the Holocaust, the role played in it by Catholics and their Church, and how the Catholic history of antisemitism contributed to it all
The Catholic Church did more than anyone else did in the entire world against the holocaust including the Jews themselves.
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ralphinal
Guest
Valke,
Please hit me with the info on that book. Author, etc.
Please hit me with the info on that book. Author, etc.
F
Freshman88
Guest
I’d be curious to see what those laws worthy of confirmation were. Otherwise, the goal of a confessional state is indeed to promote Christianity and bring all the members to the faith. There is nothing wrong with a state which promotes Catholicism (from a Catholic perspective it may be said to be the ideal)During this time Father Tacchi Venturi met with the new Italian minister of the interior to propopse changes in the laws to benefit Jewish converts to Catholicism.
In his report of the meeting to Cardinal Magilone, Venturi explained that he had not “alluded in any way to the total abrogation of laws which, according to the principles and tradition of the Catholic Church, have some dispositions that should be abrogated but contain others worthy of confirmation.”
F
Freshman88
Guest
The holocaust was motivated by ideas of racial superiority and nationalism. That’s why Jews were not the only target. If it was motivated by Christianity, why did so many Christian Slavs die? Also if it was motivated by religion, why weren’t converted Jews spared?I understand how difficult it is for Catholics to deal with the Holocaust, the role played in it by Catholics and their Church, and how the Catholic history of antisemitism contributed to it all.
Clearly it was motivated by race, not religion
.
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Valke2
Guest
Here’s a link to a review of the book that is (I think) critical of it.Valke,
Please hit me with the info on that book. Author, etc.
ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/reviewsh43.htm
And here’s a link to the Amazon.com reviews etc.
amazon.com/Under-His-Very-Windows-Holocaust/dp/0300093101/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1211317909&sr=1-1
She finds that the most significant gestures of help offered by the Church to Jews in Italy were made by clerics and believers–mostly nuns, monks, and priests–uninvolved in top-level Vatican discussions
The other book that my posts used as a source was Constantine’s Sword (which I know has gone through the critical ringer here on other threads).
V
Valke2
Guest
Well, if you were a jew and renounced your faith or converted to anyting, including Nazism, they still gassed you. To the extent I have issues with the Church, it is more along the lines of its history leading up to WWII than its actions during Hitler’s reign.The holocaust was motivated by ideas of racial superiority and nationalism. That’s why Jews were not the only target. If it was motivated by Christianity, why did so many Christian Slavs die? Also if it was motivated by religion, why weren’t converted Jews spared?
Clearly it was motivated by race, not religion
.
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ralphinal
Guest
According to an orthodox Jewish website, it is unfair to catagorize Judaism as a race or religion. IT is more than that: race, religion, nation, ethnic group, and family. Whatever the reason, also hated by many.
Leading into WWII, what % of Germany was Catholic versus Lutheran?
Leading into WWII, what % of Germany was Catholic versus Lutheran?
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Valke2
Guest
These were oppressive laws that were instituted against Jews. After Mussolini was removed, the Church met with the leadership in Italy to remove laws that affect Jewish converts to Cahtolicism but did not raise any issues regarding the laws that oppressed Jews. If I can find the book tonight, I’ll be more specific.I’d be curious to see what those laws worthy of confirmation were. Otherwise, the goal of a confessional state is indeed to promote Christianity and bring all the members to the faith. There is nothing wrong with a state which promotes Catholicism (from a Catholic perspective it may be said to be the ideal)
F
Freshman88
Guest
Ah, I see. Obviously I condemn outright oppression, I was just curious to see if these laws were truly oppressive. I personally believe a Catholic state could successfully promote Catholicism without oppressing anyone which obviously is not a popular opinion in today’s very secular world.These were oppressive laws that were instituted against Jews. After Mussolini was removed, the Church met with the leadership in Italy to remove laws that affect Jewish converts to Cahtolicism but did not raise any issues regarding the laws that oppressed Jews. If I can find the book tonight, I’ll be more specific.
F
Freshman88
Guest
I would agree that the Christian culture wrongfully fostered anti-Semitism, but I cannot accept that Christian culture as a whole was responsible for the Holocaust. Afterall, the Catholic Church historically condemned nationalism and such barbaric ideas as eugenics or racial superiority.Well, if you were a jew and renounced your faith or converted to anyting, including Nazism, they still gassed you. To the extent I have issues with the Church, it is more along the lines of its history leading up to WWII than its actions during Hitler’s reign.
I will mention that my Ukrainian Catholic grandparents were brought into slave labour, and I had a great uncle who thankfully survived the concentration camps. (Thank God this all my family had to endure from the holocaust, after all they did survive). I say this because often when I take the position I do, I am wrongfully accused of the most horrible things.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
Probably not.Pick up a copy of
There’s no doubt that certain Catholics, Protestants or whatever found themselves persecuted by the Reich.
Meanwhile, the vast majority of Catholics who were killed were killed for the ‘crime’ of being Poles.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
It was about 2/3 Protestant - 1/3 Catholic but very geographically concentrated (Catholics were, mainly, in the South). That percentage changed, of course, with the Anschluss (the annexation of Austria).According to an orthodox Jewish website, it is unfair to catagorize Judaism as a race or religion. IT is more than that: race, religion, nation, ethnic group, and family. Whatever the reason, also hated by many.
Leading into WWII, what % of Germany was Catholic versus Lutheran?
Certainly, Catholics were less likely (in Germany) to vote for the NSDAP during the rise to power than Protestants.
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