Holding Hands and Kneeling

[MAKirwan]

My parish holds hands during the Our Father. I find this a bit awkard, and don’t do so unless offered a hand by someone where refusing might be considered rude. What’s the official ruling here?

We were away in New Hampshire a few weeks ago, and at Sunday Mass the Church had no kneelers. People stood for the Consecration and Communion. This was completely foreign to me. What’s the ruling here?

MAKirwan.

 

[blessedtoo]

My parish holds hands during the Our Father. I find this a bit awkard, and don’t do so unless offered a hand by someone where refusing might be considered rude. What’s the official ruling here?

We were away in New Hampshire a few weeks ago, and at Sunday Mass the Church had no kneelers. People stood for the Consecration and Communion. This was completely foreign to me. What’s the ruling here?

MAKirwan.

Unfortunately, there is no “official” ruling on the hand holding issue. Many members of CAF find that keeping their hands folded in prayer usually conveys the message that one does not wish to hold hands. I normally keep my hands folded through the whole Mass and keep my eyes fixed on the altar. I also try to sit as far from anyone else as I can to avoid any awkward moments during the Our Father.

With regard to kneeling, the General Instruction for the Roman Missal states:

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented **on occasion **by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

Again, it’s unfortunate that many new Churches were built without kneelers and as such, make it difficult or impossible (or embarrassing) for the faithful to kneel as they should. I refuse to attend a Parish that does not have kneelers.

 

[BigFeet]

My parish holds hands during the Our Father… What’s the official ruling here?

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) does not call for holding hands. Because it does not call for it, hand holding should not be done. We are to assume a prayerful position (hands together, fingers pointed to heaven) for all prayers of the Mass. Why would we detract from that position for the “Our Father”, especially when the Church has not directed us to do so?

From a practical standpoint, it is extremely awkward for many people, and a cause for distraction. Most people are too busy thinking about their neighbor’s hand (too sweaty, too rough, too cold, etc.) to really meditate on the prayer they are saying. From a theological standpoint, this is not the point in the Mass when we are to show unity. Our unity comes when we all receive our Lord in the Eucharist.

It’s just another post-Vatican II liberal invention that detracts from the reverence of the Mass.

 

[Catholig]

My parish holds hands during the Our Father. I find this a bit awkard, and don’t do so unless offered a hand by someone where refusing might be considered rude. What’s the official ruling here?

We were away in New Hampshire a few weeks ago, and at Sunday Mass the Church had no kneelers. People stood for the Consecration and Communion. This was completely foreign to me. What’s the ruling here?

MAKirwan.

If your knees can take it you kneel on the ground (understandably though if you are elderly or have something wrong with your knees you may stand if you feel that it is too much for you). Or at least that is what I think is right… just my 2cents.

Catholig

 

[Tedster]

As Karl put it:

"The holding of hands during the Our Father is not expressly forbidden, but then actions that should not be performed are not given in a List of Forbidden Actions. That’s not the way rubrics work.

Rubrics are prescriptive. They tell you what you are to do, not what you are not to do. If something is not listed in the rubrics, then you should not do it. One example is hand holding. Since the rubrics nowhere allow hand holding, the conclusion is that one should not engage in it during Mass.

Although there is no explicit prohibition of hand holding during the Our Father (just as there is no express prohibition of singing aloud the lyrics of ‘The Music Man’ during the Consecration), the practice in effect is prohibited because there is no positive provision for it."

 

[baltobetsy]

We are to assume a prayerful position (hands together, fingers pointed to heaven) for all prayers of the Mass.

Please provide a citation for this assertion. Thank you.

Betsy

 

[Michael_Welter]

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) does not call for holding hands. Because it does not call for it, hand holding should not be done. We are to assume a prayerful position (hands together, fingers pointed to heaven) for all prayers of the Mass. Why would we detract from that position for the “Our Father”, especially when the Church has not directed us to do so?

You just contradicted yourself. On one hand you say that, since the GIRM does not specify that we are to hold hands, we shouldn’t do it. On the other hand, the GIRM doesn’t specify that “We are to assume a prayerful position (hands together, fingers pointed to heaven) for all prayers of the Mass”. Therefore, we shouldn’t do that either, right? Shouldn’t you be consistent?

 

[pennymarie]

My parish holds hands during the Our Father. I find this a bit awkard, and don’t do so unless offered a hand by someone where refusing might be considered rude. What’s the official ruling here?

MAKirwan.

Holding hands during the Our Father seems to have sprung up spontaneously. It may have it’s background in Protestant practices or it may be a misguided attempt at a show of unity or both or neither.

As far as I know there is nothing in the liturgical documents of the Church that tell us not to do it. But then they also don’t tell us to do a cartwheel down the aisle after receiving Holy Communion either. People just know that isn’t appropriate.

Anyway, I’m uncomfortable with it too and generally don’t participate in it. Check out ewtn.com/expert/answers/holding_hands_at_mass.htm
catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?id=1175&repos=1&subrepos=&searchid=23913

for some background and suggestions on how to “handle” the situation. The question gets asked pretty frequently on most forums so I’m sure the apologists here have fielded it a few times.

Penny

 

[BigFeet]

You just contradicted yourself. On one hand you say that, since the GIRM does not specify that we are to hold hands, we shouldn’t do it. On the other hand, the GIRM doesn’t specify that “We are to assume a prayerful position (hands together, fingers pointed to heaven) for all prayers of the Mass”. Therefore, we shouldn’t do that either, right? Shouldn’t you be consistent?

Dear Mr. Welter:
I suggest you read the GIRM before you claim to know what the GIRM contains. It says no less than 23 times that prayers are said “with hands joined”. Using this posture to pray is something Catholics are taught from the time they say their first prayers with mommy and daddy. When Jesus went to the garden to pray, he wasn’t holding hands with anybody.

 

[otjm]

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) does not call for holding hands. Because it does not call for it, hand holding should not be done. We are to assume a prayerful position (hands together, fingers pointed to heaven) for all prayers of the Mass. Why would we detract from that position for the “Our Father”, especially when the Church has not directed us to do so?

I guess everyone is entitled to a personal opinion, but that is not how the law goes. There is nothing in the GIRM about how to hold one’s hands; it is simply not regulated. Therefore, holding hands during the Our Father, while it may not be the best of liturgical choices, is not something that should not be done. No less than Archbishop Chaput, a bishop tht is hardly what one would call a liberal, has addressed the issue specifically in public,saying that since the posture during the Our Father is not regulated, it is permissible for people to hold hands; those who wish to are not violating any Church rule and should not be criticized, and those who wish to not hold hands should be allowed to say it in peace without hiolding hands.

It’s just another post-Vatican II liberal invention that detracts from the reverence of the Mass.

And that is a personal opinion also. Actually, it seems to have originated in the Catholic Church from the Charismatic Movement; and before you go off responding that this movement is liberal, I would point out an article in the most recent issue of either Our Sunday Visitor or the National Catholic Register (I think it was the Register) commenting on the high number of vocations coming out of a parish which is charismatic; they have more vocations out of the parish than some dioceses.

 

[otjm]

As Karl put it:

And whoever Karl is, I would point out that Archbishop Chaput sees it differently. Further, this issue has been around since at least 42 years ago; Rome was made aware of it long, long ago and has re-written the GIRM twice and issued other documents concerning issues that Rome wants stopped, and never so much as a peep about it.

Further, there was a dubium from Cardinal George of Chicago about the issue of standing after receiving Communion (the way the GIRM is written, it appeared that all were to remain standing until the last had received) and Rome’s response was, in short, that they did not intend to regulate posture that rigidly, and one could kneel or sit also before all had received.

Karl may feel that it is not proper to introduce hand holding, but given that it is over 40 years old, it is hardly being “introduced”; Rome has seen the issue and chosen to not respond, and a bishop who is hardly a liberal has said it is fine.

If you don’t want to hold hands, no one at all should force you or insist that you do; on the other side of the coin, should people wish to, you should not criticize them.

 

[otjm]

As far as I know there is nothing in the liturgical documents of the Church that tell us not to do it. But then they also don’t tell us to do a cartwheel down the aisle after receiving Holy Communion either. People just know that isn’t appropriate.

That is called a red herring arguement. Holding hands is a sign of unity. A cartwheel is not a sign of unity and so is irrelevant to the discussion. Some people feel that it is inappropriate; many fell that it is appropriate. Niether side should ciriticize the other.

Anyway, I’m uncomfortable with it too and generally don’t participate in it.

Which is perfectly acceptible and should not be criticized by anyone.

 

[Michael_Welter]

Dear Mr. Welter:
I suggest you read the GIRM before you claim to know what the GIRM contains. It says no less than 23 times that prayers are said “with hands joined”. Using this posture to pray is something Catholics are taught from the time they say their first prayers with mommy and daddy.

I have read the GIRM, and the referrences to the posture of the hands refer to the priest, not the people. Perhaps you should read the GIRM before criticizing other people for not reading it.

When Jesus went to the garden to pray, he wasn’t holding hands with anybody.

I’m not sure what that has to do with the discussion in this thread. I’m also not sure that it’s true. Do you have a referrence to a document to support this claim?

 

[BigFeet]

There is nothing in the GIRM about how to hold one’s hands; it is simply not regulated. Therefore, holding hands during the Our Father, while it may not be the best of liturgical choices, is not something that should not be done.

Without continually repeating what has already been said here, I suggest you read post #5 and #9 in this thread.

And please don’t bring up that protestant charismatic stuff to support your position. (Let’s see…2,000 years of sacred Catholic tradition vs. 30 years of invention…hmmmmm.) There are other threads in this forum to address that.

 

[TantumErgo90]

Both Churches are going against Church Law. Churches are to have kneeler. You are also not to hold hands during the Pater Noster. It is against the Latin Liturgical tradition and during Holy Mass, the sign of unity for Catholics is the reception of the Holy Eucharist. NOT holding hands.

 

[MikeDunphy]

BigFeet;2425929:

When Jesus went to the garden to pray, he wasn’t holding hands with anybody.

I’m not sure what that has to do with the discussion in this thread. I’m also not sure that it’s true. Do you have a referrence to a document to support this claim?

See Mark 14:32-42.

 

[otjm]

Without continually repeating what has already been said here, I suggest you read post #5 and #9 in this thread.

Aand I would suggest that you actully read what the GIRM says. I have, and more than once.

And please don’t bring up that protestant charismatic stuff to support your position. (Let’s see…2,000 years of sacred Catholic tradition vs. 30 years of invention…hmmmmm.) There are other threads in this forum to address that.

Protestant? No, Catholic, or don’t you believe in the Holy Spirit? And are you dissing John Paul 2?

Having known some of the most holy, respectful, reverant priests I have ever met, who were and are part of the Charismatic Movement, I would suggest that instead of reading things you know nothing about and parroting them, that you actually find out what it - the Charismatic Movement - is about - or do you think that their promotion of Eucharistic Adoration is somehow out of step with the Church you seem to think you know so much about?

 

[Michael_Welter]

Both Churches are going against Church Law. Churches are to have kneeler.

Where did you get that? St. Peter’s Basilica doesn’t have kneelers. Are saying that St. Peters is violating Church law?

 

[MAKirwan]

Wow, this many responses to a fairly simple query. And such a diversity of answers. I’m looking forward to the responses to the difficult questions I have.

My personal opinions to both of these issues is that they are contrary to what has been the norm for 2000 years. I was an altar boy when the Latin Mass was still the only Mass, when the priest still faced the Tabernacle, as opposed to the Novus Ordo where he turns his back on the Holy of Holies in order to face the sinners. Although I knew the words of the Latin Mass, altar boy training, I had no idea what the words meant, which added to the mystery of the Mass. Today I know the words and what they mean and the “mystery of this water and wine” is clearer to me, I still feel that there was more reverence in the Latin Mass.
You may be tempted to assume that maybe my own reverece has waned, which I sometimes do myself, but as an altar boy and even before and after being so, I was at Mass with my parents, and so was not entirely a voluntary candidate. Today I am a voluntary Mass goer, and I feel that because of the influence of others, particularly converts like Scott Hahn and Rosalind Moss, whom the Holy Spirit has set on fire, my faith has matured a lot. Most of the new, post Vatican 2, introductions leave me scratching my receding hair line.
Is being hipper being holier? I don’t think so.
My own treasure chest of intercessors, saints and angels, are all pre Vatican 2, and I feel in good company following their lead.
For now at least I’ll seek the nearby hands in Mass as a wish to confer a sign of peace after the Our Father.
Failing to kneel for the consecration and communion amounts to something akin to sacrilege. To be given the privilege of joining the apostles in the upper room for the last supper, to be at the foot of the cross while the expiring Body of our Savior is being offered to the Father for my failures and being allowed to partake in the Bread of Eternal Life without a gesture of humility trivializes the sacrifice.
Blessed Virgin Mary, help me to experience the Passion and Death of your Son as you yourself did, and lead me in understanding that my redemption was purchased by His suffering. May the Bread of Life sustain and strengthe me always.
Jesus, my Lord and my God, who else has the words of Eternal Life.

 

[otjm]

I was an altar boy pre V2 also. A lot of reading has shown me that the Mass, or the Holy Mysteries to some of our Eastern rite brethern, has not been cut out of one single piece of cloth as the good sisters taught us, but was much richer and more intricately woven. Some of what we have today is because the people that are in charge, and I truly believe under the direction of the Holy Spirit, saw problems in how the Mass was said, and wanted to look not just at the last 400 years, but at all of the history of the Church, and bring the sacraments closer to what the early Church did. I will not argue that some of it got off track; but who is going to quibble with a greater set of readings from Sacred Scripture?

To me, the issue of holding hands is essentially a non-issue. I don’t really care if we do or don’t. It has been around for 2/3’s of my life, or for longer than it wasn’t around. Does it make my socks roll up and down? By no means. Does it upset me? By no means; it just isn’t that big a deal. I have seen it as a very fervent form of piety, contrary to the feelings of those who at a minimum dislike it. I certainly don’t see it as a necessary form.

As to standing, I have never been to Europe so I can’t speak from personal experience, but I have heard repeatedly of churches and cathedrals there that have no kneelers; I don’t know if they get down on their knees or not; but it is for a shorter time in the universal Church (we have a longer time by norm). So I wouldn’t be surprised if they get down on their knees for that shorter period of time.

I don’t see standing during the Consecration as a sacrilege but rather as an innovative attempt to modify the liturgy with little or no understanding of its totality. As to standing at Communion, I have no problem with it; I suspect that the Apostles received reclining which we probably both would agree would make us very uncomfortable. I also consider it a privilege to receive under both Species, whcih mkaes standing a more desirable option as receiveing the Cup is difficult with an altar rail hitting your elbows; and I would hope we would never lose that option.

And speaking of being an altar boy, I alwasy thought that the speed with which Communion ws distributed certainly was not reverant; the pastor (who had a serious drinking problem) could distribute at a clip of about 1 1/2 seconds per communicant. Hradly what I call reverant, but maybe that’s just me. It seems to me that having the Host held up while reverantly saying “The Body of Christ” and waiting for the “Amen” slows the whole process down. What’s the rush?