Holding hands at the Lord's Prayer

[maggiec]

I think I must be in error, after reading these posts. I think the post about raising your hands to your mouth clasped in prayer is more in line, sorry about that.

Maggiec

 

[hsmom2four]

Beverly:

Oh, and h(name removed by moderator)2four,
you said "If someone leaves the Church because I did not hold hands with them for 20 seconds during Mass, how strong was their faith to begin with? " Maybe not strong at all - think of someone who is searching for a church, maybe with no faith, but looking for it, coming in our church and seeing others reach out to hold hands, sadly reaches out his hand to you, only to be at best ignored or at worst rebuffed…imagine his confusion and probably embarrassment at having committed an obvious faux pas! Maybe he won’t come back. The fact that you were “following the rules” doesn’t seem that important to me.

First of all, let me reiterate that I am concerned with the souls of others, which is why I question whether letting them be in error is the loving thing to do.

Second of all, like others commenting on this thread have said, before the prayer starts, I close my eyes, bow my head, and fold my hands in prayer. To "rebuff’ connotates an outright rejection. I think my posture shows prayerfulness, not rejection. If anyone misconstrues this as “rejection,” esp. since I do shake hands at the sign of peace, then I believe they have something else going on that has nothing to do with me. I have heard of others leaving the Church for similarly trivial reasons, which were not the true reasons at all. I’m not going to spend Mass on a guilt trip because of what someone else might or might not read into the way I pray the Our Father. Maybe they left because they didn’t like the way I was singing off-key, too.

Third, I’m sad to say that “following the rules” is not all that important to a good number of Catholics. We wouldn’t need a discussion board on liturgical abuses if it was . If we cannot be trusted in little things, how can we be trusted in big things? (Lk. 16:10)

 

[jp2fan]

Br. Dan:

Also, I think a certain line is crossed (obviously) when one’s “personal devotion” extends to another person, as does holding hands. It takes two to hold hands. That’s why this is more of an issue. If someone wants to beat their breast at some point or another, it isn’t all that obvious unless I am paying attention to a particular person who is doing it (which i shouldn’t be doing). If someone wants to hold another’s hand, that discreetness is not there anymore.

…

The Mass is about unity and I don’t know how we will be (externally) unified unless we simply do what we’re told…and like it.

I totally agree about the personal devotion when it involves others. That’s why I think it’s interesting that neither the USCCB nor the Pope has told us to stop (at least to my knowledge).

As to doing what we’re told for unity, again, I totally agree! If the bishops/Pope tells us to stop, I most certainly will. But they haven’t, so please don’t insinuate insubordination on my part.

As to what someone said about Archbishop Chaput, I go to school in Denver, and we have never heard anything about not holding hands in Mass- and he is not shy about reprimanding us.

jp2fan

 

[Br.Dan_OCD]

Dear jp2fan,

I am operating under the liturgical principle cited by Mr. Keating. So, what we aren’t told to do, we don’t do. I don’t think “insubordination” is a term I would use, however, for those who don’t follow that principle. Instead of “insubordination,” when I see hand-holding at Mass I think “Hmm” and keep my hands under my scapular, like a good, little, humble friar should do all the time.

I, too, know of no direct intervention on the part of the USCCB or “the Vatican” but I do know of an individual bishop who has said something about it: the former archbishop of Milwaukee, Rembert Weakland, OSB. His rationale for speaking against it was this: the point of holding hands is to show unity but the fact that many people do not wish to hold hands makes obvious dis-unity result.

I think he’s right. So, I don’t think we need to depend on a specific directive from our superiors…we can see for ourselves that the practice doesn’t help bring us together as a universal Church.

I don’t know why you are waiting for a directive from the bishop when you agree with what I said about unity and personal devotion…?

 

[drforjc]

Bro. Dan,

I don’t mean to sound disrespectful, but if mass is not a time for “personal,devotional acts”, why do the liturgical documents emphasize the need for sacred silence at the proper times? Just what are we supposed to do during this time?

 

[Detroit_Sue]

jp2fan:

But it seems to me that if something is a widespread abuse, the contemporary rubrics would make a note of it. I’m no canon law expert, and I confess I haven’t even read the GIRM, but I hear on other threads that there are rules as to what music is not allowed, ie nonCatholic composers, popular songs, etc. And what about how people used to beat their breasts at the Agnus Dei? I know some still do it, but didn’t a rule come out at some point saying that it was no longer necessary? I totally agree with what everyone is saying about following the Church, regardless of our opinions. And if the Pope ever specifically says not to, I will certainly stop. But he hasn’t. And I have to believe that if this were a grave liturgical abuse the Holy Spirit would prompt the Church to forbid it. I think it’s a bit ludicrous to compare holding hands in the Lord’s prayer to yodeling or wearing your underpants on your head. Firstly, it is a widespread, time-honored tradition in a lot of parishes. Secondly, it means something to a lot of people. And I certainly think that if something that is so widespread were that big of an error, the Church would say something about it. But noone here has been able to provide such a document.

jp2fan

ps, jnb, still waiting for an explanation to your arguments.

I went to the instructional meeting on the GIRM. WITH all the priests, and the Cardinal, and the Auxiliary Bishops. The “official” word is the the Council of Catholic Bishops have “tabled” this issue, since it is really a non-issue. You are not to hold hands during the Our Father. Period. As Karl stated, there is no instruction to DO it, therefore it should NOT be done. Period. Why all the controversy about this?

I smiled at the reply about holding your neighbor’s hand in church, and not letting him out of the parking lot. I had a priest (my cousin) in town visiting me last fall. Coming out of Mass, his car door accidentally bumped the car next to him. He apologized, but the owner went ballistic! She proceeded to swear and scream at him for nearly 5 minutes. Of course, since my cousin was not in his clerics (self-admitted liberal in his 70s), the woman had no idea he was a priest. What a great impression that must have made on him… Kumbyah

 

[a_pilgrim]

Detroit Sue:

We should be able to walk into any Catholic church in the world (well, at least the USA) and have unity as to the Order of the Mass.

Hi, Detroit Sue!

Forgive me for calling you on a point of technicality, but your statement is simply not true. There are MANY churches here in the USA that are every bit as *Catholic *(capital “C”) as your church, yet they celebrate the Eucharist in a format that would, no doubt, appear very foreign to you… not at all like the Mass that you say all Catholic Churches should conform to. These are the Eastern Catholic Churches, most of whom typically follow the format of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom as a basis for communial worship, not the Latin Rite “Order of the Mass,” (either Novus Ordo or Tridentine) that I assume you refer to. This is exactly what the “catholic” (lower-case “c”) part of “…one, holy, catholic and apostolic…” refers to. Our Holy Catholic Church, under the pastoral care of John Paul II, welcomes and even encourages many and varied manifestations of worship, each very different in ruberics and traditions, but all sharing the same beliefs and Articles of Faith.

JPII has mandated (Orientale Lumen, 1995) that all Catholic faithful take steps to acquaint themselves with the rich treasures of worship that the Eastern Catholic Churches bring to the table, and to do whatever may be necessary to ensure that these traditions and customs, though very different from those of the Latin Rite, remain and fluorish!

Now… had you specifically referred to the Roman Catholic Church in your statement, I’d have been more apt to agree with you.

Oh… and for the record - the Eastern Catholic Churches that I’ve had experience with do not join hands at the Lord’s Prayer.

Slava Isusu Christu!

a pilgrim

 

[GoodSamaritan]

From my perspective, it unites our congregation into one entity asking God to reveal His kingdom to us on Earth. What feels superficial to some is really a uniting gesture for others. Familiarity with the ‘old lady’ next to me is irrelevant, IMO. The Gospel is made up of our fundamental Christian tenets–this is all the familiarity needed, IMO. We don’t say 'Give ME this day, MY daily bread…we say Give US OUR daily bread–holding hands and uniting in this way seems natural. What may take one away from his/her focus at Mass may actually help another to establish focus.
My only problem is that, since no definitive pronunciation is made regarding this practice, that parishes should remain silent about this. Mandating either way is unnecessary, IMO.

 

[Detroit_Sue]

JNB:

People never beat their breast for the Angus Dei, it was, and technically they still should beat their breast when the Confetior is said, mea culpa, mea cula mea maxima in Latin, in English(untill t he new translation comes out) Though my Fault.

I do, and so do a lot of people in my parish. :yup:

 

[Detroit_Sue]

a pilgrim:

Hi, Detroit Sue!

Forgive me for calling you on a point of technicality, but your statement is simply not true. There are MANY churches here in the USA that are every bit as *Catholic *(capital “C”) as your church, yet they celebrate the Eucharist in a format that would, no doubt, appear very foreign to you… not at all like the Mass that you say all Catholic Churches should conform to. These are the Eastern Catholic Churches, most of whom typically follow the format of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom as a basis for communial worship, not the Latin Rite “Order of the Mass,” (either Novus Ordo or Tridentine) that I assume you refer to.
a pilgrim

Point taken. I forget I have to differentiate here.

 

[Br.Dan_OCD]

Dear drforjc,

Don’t worry, you didn’t sound at all disrespectful. What I mean by “personal, devotional acts” is any visible action or posture or any audible words/prayers. Thanks for making me clarify what I mean.

I wanted to post what Archbishop Weakland said about this since I made reference to him above and wasn’t entirely precise or accurate in what I said. Here’s what he said

“Holding hands is another matter. This is not a rubric approved by either the local bishop, or the Conference of bishops, or Rome. It entered the Catholic Church through the Charismatic Renewal and has no tradition among us. Some dislike it very much and will not participate at Mass at certain parishes because of it. Personally, I find it childish and uncharitable - in that it makes so many people, especially elderly, feel uncomfortable. I have no idea how my successor would deal with it, but my prognosis is that this innovation will not last long.”

For the entire document in which this is stated, check this link:

jsonline.com/news/state/feb00/weakland022500.asp

It’s good we can all disagree about something so small and agree on everything else.

 

[a_pilgrim]

Detroit Sue:

Point taken. I forget I have to differentiate here.

Forgive me, Sue… not all Eastern Catholics are as obnoxious as me!
It’s just that I take the Holy Father’s directive to spread the word regarding the Eastern Churches of our Holy Catholic Chuch rather seriously, and I find it difficult to ignore opportunities to do so. The perception among non-Catholics and, sadly in many cases, even among our own Catholic brethren is that the terms "Catholic Church" and "Roman Catholic Church" are synonimous - we know, of course, they are not. The Catholic Church is composed of no fewer than 23 separate Churches, all of which are under the pastoral care of our Holy Father John Paul II, and of which the Roman Catholic Church is but one (albeit far and away the largest!). Hey… the way I look at it, somebody’s gotta stand up for the “little guy!”

ahem… and, speaking of opportunities (uh-oh!.. sounds like another Eastern Catholic advertisement’s a-comin’!)…

…did you know that there are FOUR Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Churches in the immediate Detroit area?? Yup!! Boy, what a novel way to (hint… hint…) spend a Sunday by increasing your own awareness of the richness of our Catholic Faith, while at the same time fulfilling your Sunday obligation!

Please consider giving one a try and letting us know what you think!!

a pilgrim

 

[buffalo]

Concerning holding hands in the Eucharistic Liturgy the Congregation for Divine Worship in Rome responded as follows: QUERY: In some places there is a current practice whereby those taking part in the Mass replace the giving of the sign of peace at the deacon’s invitation by holding hands during the singing of the Lord’s Prayer. Is this acceptable? REPLY: The prolonged holding of hands is of itself a sign of communion rather than of peace. Further, it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics. Nor is there any clear explanation of why the sign of peace at the invitation: “Let us offer each other the sign of peace” should be supplanted in order to bring a different gesture with less meaning into another part of the Mass: the sign of peace is filled with meaning, graciousness, and Christian inspiration. Any substitution for it must be repudiated: Notitiae 11 (1975) 226. Notitiae is the journal of the Congregation in which its official interpretations of the rubrics are published.]

           While this addresses the holding of hands at the Sign of Peace the reasons given apply       also elsewhere in the Mass, including at the Our Father.

    1) It is an inappropriate "sign," since Communion is the sign of intimacy.       Thus, a gesture of intimacy is introduced both before the sign of reconciliation      (the Sign of       Peace), but more importantly, before Holy       Communion, the sacramental sign of communion/intimacy within the People of       God.

    2) It is introduced on personal initiative. The Holy See has authority over the liturgy       according to Vatican II's "Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy" #22 and canon 838       of the *Code of Canon Law*.

      This gesture has come into widespread use, often leaving bishops and pastors at a loss as to how to reverse the situation. For individuals, I would recommend closed eyes and a prayerful posture as sufficient response, rather than belligerence. Most laity, and probably many priests, are blind to the liturgical significance of interrupting the flow of the Mass in this way. It is not necessary to lose one's peace over this or be an irritation to others. Some proportion is required. If asked why you don't participate, simply, plainly and charitably tell the questioner of your discovery. If some chance of changing the practice is possible talk to the pastor or work with other laity through the parish council. You can also write the bishop, as is your right in the case of any liturgical abuse not resolved at the parish level. If your judgment is that no change is possible then I believe you are excused from further fraternal correction.

 

[iguana27]

Can you imagine Christ being grossed out by holding the hands of a stranger?

 

[buffalo]

iguana27:

Can you imagine Christ being grossed out by holding the hands of a stranger?

I don’t see that as being the point. Our unity is expressed at the consecration. There is a time and place for everything. I am sure Christ would like to see this expressed at the appropriate time.

 

[Ham1]

iguana27:

Can you imagine Christ being grossed out by holding the hands of a stranger?

Christ also would not be grossed out seeing any of us naked.

I am sure many of you want to hold hands with great intentions but right now the Church asks that we do certain things in the celebration of the mass and this is not one of them. If this changes in the future, that’s fine. But for now, it’s not permitted and that’s it. If you want to deny the authority of the Church to make decisions on the liturgy, then go ahead and disobey. Otherwise, you might want to consider humbly conforming your opinions to the teachings of the Church.

Is this issue really all that confusing?

 

[The_Vatican_Two]

A neighbor of ours is in the diaconate program in our archdiocese. He mentioned that one of the priests instructing told all of the diaconate candidates that they are not to hold hands during “The Lord’s Prayer.” However, the priest told them that they are to hold their own hands outstretched during the prayer, as if receiving a gift. Is this correct posture?

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I recommend the following article …

The ‘Our Father’: Appropriate gestures for prayer
by Most Rev. Charles Chaput, Archbisop of Denver
archden.org/archbishop/docs/12_18_02_our_father_liturgy.htm

… our guiding principles should be respect for the dignity of the Mass, and respect for the freedom of our fellow worshipers.
Some people feel that holding hands during the “Our Father” enhances a sense of community. This is perfectly appropriate — so long as it can be done with dignity and without the unseemly acrobatics that sometimes ensue.

For other people, holding hands is a kind of intimacy they reserve for family members. It makes them uncomfortable to hold hands during Mass, and they prefer not to do it. This is also perfectly appropriate. A parish may have several ways of praying the “Our Father,” depending on the people who take part in a specific Mass. No one should feel coerced, and the beauty of the liturgy should always be observed.

God bless,

Dave

 

[Detroit_Sue]

ahem… and, speaking of opportunities (uh-oh!.. sounds like another Eastern Catholic advertisement’s a-comin’!)…

…did you know that there are FOUR Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Churches in the immediate Detroit area?? Yup!! Boy, what a novel way to (hint… hint…) spend a Sunday by increasing your own awareness of the richness of our Catholic Faith, while at the same time fulfilling your Sunday obligation!

Please consider giving one a try and letting us know what you think!!

a pilgrim

I would love to go to a Byzantine Mass. Do you perchance have the names of these parishes? I’ve been to a Melkite Mass. The Eastern churches are so beautiful…

 

[a_pilgrim]

Detroit Sue:

I would love to go to a Byzantine Mass. Do you perchance have the names of these parishes?

Here ya go, Sue…

parma.org/detroit.htm



a pilgrim