Holding hands at the Lord's Prayer

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I am no theologian, so you won’t see any CCC or GIRM quotes from me. However, I do like to keep informed on the situation, and after reading all the posts here, this is my take on things:
  1. My family does NOT hold hands during the Our Father because it is not allowed. Period. We have a duty of obedience to the Church that Jesus Christ established.
  2. Is it really “loving” to let others continue on in error? Sometimes, a good mother must say no to her children. They may not like it, but she knows what’s best for them. Like our Mother Church…
  3. If someone leaves the Church because I did not hold hands with them for 20 seconds during Mass, how strong was their faith to begin with? Perhaps there are other issues there? Yes, I am concerned for their soul and would never knowingly do anything to lead them astray, but they are ultimately responsible for their own salvation.
  4. We are not at Mass to “feel good;” we are there to worship GOD. The “feel good” is only a byproduct, not our purpose for being there.
  5. Sure, in the wide spectrum of liturgical abuses, this may be minor. And I don’t think anyone is going to hell for holding hands during Mass. But like venial sin that can snowball into mortal sin, a tiny abuse can pave the way for worse abuses. It’s that proverbial slippery slope…
  6. I can appreciate the “community feel” that holding hands gives one during the celebration of the Mass. The Mass is a sacrifice AND it is our community prayer. If we are ever expressly given permission from the Holy See to hold hands during the Our Father, I’m right there with you. But until that time, I know I must obey what is given.
And that’s enough from me for now…
 
Can anyone please inform me as to where it states that holding hands is not allowed?

thanks!!
 
OTM, you really lay it on thick. Again, I prefer a solem mass, a mass that is meditative, the way the Roman rite was before Vatican II and still is at many parishes that use the current missal. Communion is the outward sign of the community union with Christ though the Eucharist, as the priests on EWTN have said, holding hands during the Our Father is an un needed gesture, and again, can be considerd a minor abuse. I do not buy the charity excuse to further horizontalise the mass, much less turn the Our Father into somthing that is not. Vatican II called to have the laity to bring the church to the outside world, not bring the outside world into the church. The sloppy rubrics are just one of the symptoms that also includes the “bubble gum” that was fed to Catholics in the last 35 years.

Again, there is plenty of time to be a community after mass, outside of the mass, in the social hall or in the real world, where charity really counts. It worked that way before Vatican II and still works that way at many parishes that celebrate the current rite. Ironically, and I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread, the parish that I found the most community was in the diocese I used to live in, it is one of the few Traditional rite only parishes in the US, in contrast the parish that was among the most “experimental” in liturgy was a place that people went to mass and then went home, very much so a lack of community.
 
Otm,
Good points made. The part were you take part in my judgment is my favorite. Let me add to it. True God may chastise you for rejecting another persons ‘love’. He may also add that you where quick to hold your brothers hand in Church, but I see that once service is over you don’t have the same love. Remember as you where leaving the Church parking lot and did not let your neighbor in line. Remember how you quickly sped up on the highway so as to not let your brother in front of you. Remember how you quickly jump over to the next check out lane at the grocery store when a new line opens, even though you are not next in line.
I for one would never “reject” someone’s out stretched hand. That would not be a very loving posture. At the same time I don’t reach out my hand during the Lord’s Prayer. If your not grabbing for my hand, I am not grabbing for yours. To me it was not practiced as I was growing up so it is strange to me. It feels unnatural is some way. It feels to Protestant and Baptist new age religion all rolled into one. It’s not Catholic. Are we at a séance or in Church?
Who is it that is drawing attention to ones self. This is a relatively new practice. One should conclude that it is the hand holders that are drawing attention to ones self. Starting what amounts to an addition to the rubrics. The hand holders seeming to have the moral high ground, “How dare you not take my out stretched hand!” Those of us that would prefer not to hold hands are forced into it. I don’t want to seem uncharitable; I better hold their hand. Mean while at the sign of peace the hand holders become so busy hugging their family members that you stand with you’re out stretched hand until the hugs and kiss’s are over. O well we have to wait for the altar servers to get back from hugging and kissing their family.
Why would we need a ‘study’ to show that what goes on at mass is a reason for failure in this or that. It is as plain as the nose on our face that if mass, the place where we come to be instructed and reminded of Christ’s calling, is not done with relevance what are we left with. You can quickly see that if teachings in Gods own house are not treated seriously then what do they matter in the rest of my life. At least I hope that you can see this. It’s what got us here. Remember the part in the Apostles’ Creed when we say that we are an apostolic Church. Meaning an uninterrupted transmission of ministerial authority.
We should always treat each other with love and compassion. Especially Christ warns, “your fellow Christians”. And I don’t get the part about the 12-minute masses. If you take out all the new age singing, mass time is very easily reduced. Not that I am paying attention to time though. Besides you can wonder in to Church in time to hold hands at the Our Father, get communion and you’re on your way.
Please understand that I base most of this post on actually observing people at Church. I don’t claim for it to be a scientific survey though. Based on the number of people that have posted to this thread and viewed the thread hand holding at the Our Father does make for a lively debate.

Respectfully,
Benjamin
 
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Unvrsl_Sldr:
Can anyone please inform me as to where it states that holding hands is not allowed?

thanks!!
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This is exactly the wrong question.

The rubrics NEVER tell you what is NOT allowed. They only tell you what you are to do. Everything that is not listed as to be done is not to be done.

Example: The rubrics nowhere tell you not to yodel during the Agnus Dei, but I assure you that you are not to yodel then or at any other point of the Mass.

Since holding hands at the Our Father is not something you are instructed to do, you shouldn’t do it.
 
Veronica Anne:
Every time the Lord’s Prayer is recited at Mass, everybody grabs the hand of the person on each side. Even the priest does this, grabbing the hand of the altar servers, who are now holding each others hands.

And if you happen to be the end person at your pew, you are under social pressure to step into the aisleway to grab the hand of the person standing at the end of the pew on their side… all while still holding the hand of the person that you’re already latched onto, having to do some kind of a Gumby stretch on their arm to pull them off the center of their gravity so you can reach across the aisle.

If you don’t do that, the person on the other side of the aisle makes it their mission to come across, themselves, to reach you. :eek:

Meantime… the Lord’s Prayer has already gotten past the first several words… to “thy kingdom come,” etc.

And I have totally been taken AWAY from the Mass by now. 😦

This goes on all the way through the doxology and the words “for thine is the Kingdom, the power, and the glory, now and forever. Amen.”

What else – the priest often just drops the doxology altogether, blending the Lord’s Prayer that we do (only the words in the Scripture where Jesus tells us how to pray it) into the version that Protestants do that adds words to the prayer.

At that last part (“for thine is the Kingdom, the power, and the glory, now and forever. Amen.”) I’ve had my hands pulled up to my shoulder level. Actually, YANKED. :eek: And sometimes, it hurts! :mad:

Is it just me??? When this happens, it feels like I’m at some kind of Protestant prayer service – NOT at the Holy sacrifice of the Mass!

I can appreciate that folks like to feel connected (remember that Hands Across America thing several years ago?).

I can appreciate that people beLIEVE that THIS is the way to express our unity.

Fact is… the way that we express our unity at Mass is by actually BEING in communion in the eating and drinking the Actual Presence of Jesus (Eucharist).

If this were a Catholic prayer group meeting… fine. BUT… this is THE MASS!

I’m not comfortable holding ANY stranger’s hand. To me, holding someone’s hand is reserved as an expression of romance.

This is ALL so distracting to me at Mass! So, I try to stay concentrated on what I’m doing in this public prayer…

These days, at the point where we are to stand to say the Lord’s Prayer, I stay kneeling and put my hands over my eyes during the entire Lord’s prayer, the doxology, and thru the end of it when I can hear people dropping each other’s hands and re-adjusting their stance to normal.

This way, I can hear everyone else reciting at the same rythm and cadence as I am reciting it… hey… listening to voices blending all together definitely gives me a sense of the community in prayer together the same way and level that we all say the words elsewhere in the Mass.

I’m sure that I’m being distracting to others by doing something DIFFERENT than they are doing.

I brought it up with my pastor, saying that the missalette does not say ANYWHERE that we are to hold hands, like it says where we are to stand, sit, and kneel. He replied that nowhere in the rubrics does it say that we are NOT to hold hands. So I am SUPPOSED to hold hands with people on either side.

Of course, I often get weird looks from the people on either side when I appear to “come to” to stand up and shake their hands at the Sign of the Peace immediately following.

Or is it just me who is struggling with this? Help!

P.S. It’s not just my own parish. Nor in just my local diocese that I’ve experienced this. But I don’t see on the Masses said by the Pope that people are grabbing each other hands like it’s some big “kumbaya” moment!
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When the Lords prayer is started I raise both my hands close to my sides and look streight ahead, it seems that the person next to me gets the message without saying anything.
Peace to you

Maggie
 
So is raising my hands durning the Lord’s Prayer also wrong since it’s not in the rubrics or is this okay since others are not pressured into it? Of course it might be distracting to some?
 
Karl Keating:
The rubrics NEVER tell you what is NOT allowed. They only tell you what you are to do. Everything that is not listed as to be done is not to be done.
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But it seems to me that if something is a widespread abuse, the contemporary rubrics would make a note of it. I’m no canon law expert, and I confess I haven’t even read the GIRM, but I hear on other threads that there are rules as to what music is not allowed, ie nonCatholic composers, popular songs, etc. And what about how people used to beat their breasts at the Agnus Dei? I know some still do it, but didn’t a rule come out at some point saying that it was no longer necessary? I totally agree with what everyone is saying about following the Church, regardless of our opinions. And if the Pope ever specifically says not to, I will certainly stop. But he hasn’t. And I have to believe that if this were a grave liturgical abuse the Holy Spirit would prompt the Church to forbid it. I think it’s a bit ludicrous to compare holding hands in the Lord’s prayer to yodeling or wearing your underpants on your head. Firstly, it is a widespread, time-honored tradition in a lot of parishes. Secondly, it means something to a lot of people. And I certainly think that if something that is so widespread were that big of an error, the Church would say something about it. But noone here has been able to provide such a document.

jp2fan

ps, jnb, still waiting for an explanation to your arguments.
 
People never beat their breast for the Angus Dei, it was, and technically they still should beat their breast when the Confetior is said, mea culpa, mea cula mea maxima in Latin, in English(untill t he new translation comes out) Though my Fault.
 
Raising your hands, holding hands, yodeling – it all amounts to the same thing.

All of this confusion is a direct result of the priests not telling the congregation that holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer is not acceptable. In fact, the discord evident on this thread is indicative of the necessity that the priests should instruct everyone at Mass that they should NOT hold hands.

The beauty of our Mass is consistency. It should be enforced.
 
Otm,

Please read Mr. Keating’s reply.

Also, as to this community argument…a couple of points from the Pontiff’s recent instruction ‘Redemptionis Sacramentum’:

[40.] Nevertheless, from the fact that the liturgical celebration obviously entails activity, it does not follow that everyone must necessarily have something concrete to do beyond the actions and gestures, as if a certain specific liturgical ministry must necessarily be given to the individuals to be carried out by them. Instead, catechetical instruction should strive diligently to correct those widespread superficial notions and practices often seen in recent years in this regard, and ever to instill anew in all of Christ’s faithful that sense of deep wonder before the greatness of the mystery of faith that is the Eucharist, in whose celebration the Church is forever passing from what is obsolete into newness of life: “in novitatem a vetustate”.101 For in the celebration of the Eucharist, as in the whole Christian life which draws its power from it and leads toward it, the Church, after the manner of Saint Thomas the Apostle, prostrates herselfin adoration before the Lord who was crucified, suffered and died, was buried and arose, and perpetually exclaims to Him who is clothed in the fullness of His divine splendor: “My Lord and my God!”

[42.] It must be acknowledged that the Church has not come together by human volition; rather, she has been called together by God in the Holy Spirit, and she responds through faith to His free calling (thus the word ekklesia is related to klesis, or “calling”).106 Nor is the Eucharistic Sacrifice to be considered a “concelebration”, in the univocal sense, of the Priest along with the people who are present.107 On the contrary, the Eucharist celebrated by the Priests “is a gift which radically transcends the power of the community… The community that gathers for the celebration of the Eucharist absolutely requires an ordained Priest, who presides over it so that it may truly be a Eucharistic convocation. On the other hand, the community is by itself incapable of providing an ordained minister”.108 There is pressing need of a concerted will to avoid all ambiguity in this matter and to remedy the difficulties of recent years. Accordingly, terms such as “celebrating community” or “celebrating assembly” (in other languages “asamblea celebrante”, “assemblée célébrante”, “assemblea celebrante”) and similar terms should not be used injudiciously.
 
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STJOMO:
All of this confusion is a direct result of the priests not telling the congregation that holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer is not acceptable.
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Right, but priests aren’t telling us this. And neither are the bishops. And neither is the Pope. So why are you so convinced that the priests are neglecting to inform us of a rule that doesn’t exist?

jp2fan

ps jnb, you’re ignoring me. And people most definitely did, and some still do, beat their breasts at the agnus dei. I think there are actually three points at which people beat their breasts- the confiteor, as you pointed out, at the consecration, when the bells are rung, and the agnus dei.
 
JP2fan, I am hardly ignoreing you, I am telling you what I have seen. the parishes I have been to, using the old mass, a contempoary version of the new mass, a traditional version of the new mass and points between, I have NEVER seen people beat their breasts during the Angus Dei/Lamb of God or the Canon/Eucharistic Prayer of the mass. I have been to masses where people have made it their lifes work to know the liturgy, and I have only seen people beat their breast during the Confetior.
 
JNB, I was taught to beat my breast and exclaim (not out loud - more an interior thing) “My Lord and my God.” at the elevation of the Host and the Chalice during the Consecration. My mother, a cradle Catholic - Catholic private school - knows Latin - also beats her breast on the “have mercy on us” of the Agnus Dei. I don’t see it often now but one of the people I see beating his breast during the consecration is a deacon who is ultra-conservative and wouldn’t be caught dead holding anyone’s hands during mass. I do this often but most don’t, so this is an example to me of something that it does not say we CAN do and doesn’t say we CAN’T do but is okay because it doesn’t offend the ones who get creeped out by the “touchy-feely” stuff. This pretty much says to me that it is more personal opinion about whether or not one likes a specific action that causes it to be an “abuse”. If it was that we are supposed to all have the exact same movement and postures as everyone else (kind of like synchronized swimming, it seems) then wouldn’t you all be upset about people beating their breasts during…well, any part of the mass since it is something that some do and others don’t.

And Opus Dei, I don’t think the quotes you have address what you think it does. The first part that you highlighted is directly preceded by* “Nevertheless, from the fact that the liturgical celebration obviously entails activity, it does not follow that everyone must necessarily have something concrete to do beyond the actions and gestures, as if a certain specific liturgical ministry must necessarily be given to the individuals to be carried out by them.” * seems to be addressing more the use of lay men to distribute communion if there are clergy present and maybe even the people who used to say the Eucharistic prayer with the priest (for a while, I noticed some in the assembly reading along on parts of the prayer and especially the very end of it and I know that is not correct). The second part you highlighted is followed directly by “The community that gathers for the celebration of the Eucharist absolutely requires an ordained Priest, who presides over it so that it may truly be a Eucharistic convocation. On the other hand, the community is by itself incapable of providing an ordained minister”." which tells me that this simply means you cannot have consecration unless you have a priest who is properly ordained. At least, this is my opinion on what it means which is as valid as your opinion.

In fact, while I highly respect Karl Keating with regards to his very important work when it comes to apologetics, this particular argument comes down to one’s opinion on what is correct because the rubrics do not say we CAN and they do not say we CAN’T and if it simply means we CANNOT do something unless it says we CAN, then we could get into endless arguments saying, Well, it doesn’t say you can beat your breast at the elevation but it doesn’t say you CAN’T. It doesn’t say you CAN wear your underwear on your head, but it doesn’t say you CAN’T. I think it was assumed we do have brains and can use common sense.

Again, I personally do not hold hands during the Lord’s Prayer but some people do and as long as they do not force someone to hold their hand (which I personally have never seen) then we should just not worry about it.

Oh, and h(name removed by moderator)2four,
you said "If someone leaves the Church because I did not hold hands with them for 20 seconds during Mass, how strong was their faith to begin with? " Maybe not strong at all - think of someone who is searching for a church, maybe with no faith, but looking for it, coming in our church and seeing others reach out to hold hands, sadly reaches out his hand to you, only to be at best ignored or at worst rebuffed…imagine his confusion and probably embarrassment at having committed an obvious faux pas! Maybe he won’t come back. The fact that you were “following the rules” doesn’t seem that important to me.
 
Dear Beverly, et. al.,

I think the principle which Mr. Keating has put forth is sound. Our problem is that we tend to apply it only to others and excuse our own personal, devotional acts. The liturgy, as the work of the entire Body of Christ, is not the time for personal, devotional acts. The arguments would not be endless, especially if we all humbly accepted the directions of our leaders in the faith and did away with all that was uncalled-for, liturgically speaking. You’re right–personal opinion plays a role in all this. That’s too bad.

Also, I think a certain line is crossed (obviously) when one’s “personal devotion” extends to another person, as does holding hands. It takes two to hold hands. That’s why this is more of an issue. If someone wants to beat their breast at some point or another, it isn’t all that obvious unless I am paying attention to a particular person who is doing it (which i shouldn’t be doing). If someone wants to hold another’s hand, that discreetness is not there anymore.

As for your example of someone leaving after getting confused about all this and leaving: it could happen but the real origin of his confusion was some people (those who are holding hands) at the Mass letting their personal devotion take precedence over public worship and he thinking he was supposed to follow suit…and getting confused because he actually wasn’t.

Finally, otm, I don’t think you can legitimately say all you said to diminish the importance of this issue and then claim that Jesus will be asking us about this and making a judgment about our charity, or lack thereof, based on it.

The Mass is about unity and I don’t know how we will be (externally) unified unless we simply do what we’re told…and like it. 🙂
 
Q. Is yodeling the same as holding hands??
A. No, but the point is that neither are allowed!

Although it is a good emphasis to get the point across, i think that yodeling and holding hands are two very different situations.

Perhaps, but since it exists (holding hands), maybe it is something that will be addressed in the near future.

My question is, what if it were allowed, or better yet, what if it were required? Would people have to deal with holding a stranger’s hand? I guess we would have to leave it up to GOD to know what is truly in our hearts.

But, to be fair, all I want to do is be a good Catholic.

Peace!
 
How sad that some pastors and associate priests obligate people to hold hands during the Our Father. The Our Father is a prayer directed VERTICALLY to God the Father, and not horizontally to the person next to us in the pew.
It is really time for these parishes who obligate Catholics (seems to be ONLY in the Catholic Church in the USA) to hold hands during the Our Father to fast forward to the present, and stop re-living the “Kum-Baya” “on Eagles Wings” era of the late 1960’s and 1970’s. I wonder how many parishes in the USA will follow the latest dictates on the Liturgy by Cardinal Arinze’ prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Liturgy of the Sacraments, writing on the Mass: what can and cannot be done. It’s great to see these Vatican Dictates, but WHO will enforce them in the Catholic Church in the USA, besides (I bet) the great Archbishop Charles Chaput of Denver, and the great Bishop of Lincoln, Nebraska? Why are there not more like those two???
Blessings, and peace.
 
I have a more simplistic reason for holding hands. My parish has a priest who strives to be faithful to the GIRM. He has instructed the congregation every time the bishop has issued him instructions. I do not believe in constantly jumping chain of command over every minor issue. I will follow his lead, even holding hands, because I trust him and am under his authority in his role as parish priest**. ** I still am fully capable of praying “vertically”.

May God send us holy priest.
 
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