Holding Hands during Our Father

[otjm]

Thank you for the response. My conclusion is that holding hands is not In the GIRM, therefore should not be forced on anyone.

That is what Archbishop Chaput says; but then, since holding hands palms together is also not in the GIRM (there is no reference to posture of hands in the GIRM), those who wish to hold hands should not be criticized either.

That is also what Archbishop Chaput says.

 

[otjm]

Holding hands forces people (like me) to either comply with somthing that is not in the Liturgy or worse makes people like me look unfriendly. I will not EVER hold anyones hand during the Our Father…unless the POPE issues a statement that says it is to be done. I will however hug a total stranger during the kiss of peace. I have no problem with holding someones hand…but I will not do it during a time that my prayer is to be directed upwards to God.

Where charity and love prevail, there God is ever found.

For those who would prefer to not hold hands, they should be allowed to not do so.

Charity should abound on both sides of the issue. While it is your perogative to not hold hands, if someone else does not understand the issue well, and is obviously wnating to hold hands, then the issue becomes one of who will be charitible first.

 

[otjm]

What if the grandfather would have stood on his head during the our father?

That is called a red herring. It has nothing to do with the question at hand.

Whether or not one agrees or disagrees with holding hands during the Our Father, holding hands is a symbol of unity and as such is at least within the understanding of a liturgical act.

Standing on one’s head has no general liturgical meaning; this type of example is often thrown into the discussion by those who don’t like holding hands, as if it were a fine example of why holding hands is wrong. It is the use of illogic to prove one’s point, and being illogical, does not do so.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Where charity and love prevail, there God is ever found.

For those who would prefer to not hold hands, they should be allowed to not do so.

Charity should abound on both sides of the issue. While it is your perogative to not hold hands, if someone else does not understand the issue well, and is obviously wnating to hold hands, then the issue becomes one of who will be charitible first.

But on the other hand, if this week you refused the hand reaching out to you, but next week chose to accept the hand of another person, should the previous person see you, what will that cause?

IMHO, if its a parish thing, its better to go with the flow than to create a situation where its seen as snobbery.

Jim

 

[otjm]

But on the other hand, if this week you refused the hand reaching out to you, but next week chose to accept the hand of another person, should the previous person see you, what will that cause?

IMHO, if its a parish thing, its better to go with the flow than to create a situation where its seen as snobbery.

Jim

That is somewhat my opinion too. I have seen few issues which raise so much angst and furor over what is essentially such a minor issue.

I know this goes back more than 40 years, as I have a picture of people holding hands during an Our Father at a Mass which was most likely in 1965 or 1966. Rome has heard about this for at least 30 years if not more; they have re-written the GIRM twice, come out with other docmuments concerning issues in the Liturgy, and still does not address it. There are those who insist you take their hand (and I suspect often because they are unde the impression that hand holding is what we are supposed to do) and there are those who absolutely refuse to hold hands.

In a time of common prayer (we are praying it together, and the words are Our Father, Give us, our…bread, forgive us as we forgive, against us, lead us, deliver us - couldn’t be much more community expressed) we end up with this little p…ing match over whether we will or will not hold hands. Such charity. And such an example of charity for those who insist either way.

 

[THurifer2]

Standing on one’s head has no general liturgical meaning; this type of example is often thrown into the discussion by those who don’t like holding hands, as if it were a fine example of why holding hands is wrong. It is the use of illogic to prove one’s point, and being illogical, does not do so.

Holding hands has no general liturgical meaning; this type of example is often thrown into the discussion by those who don’t like standing on ones head, as if it were a fine example of why standing on ones head is wrong. It is the use of illogic to prove one’s point, and being illogical, does not do so.

Standing on ones head and holding hands have 2 significant similarities…they both are NOT in the GIRM and both have equal theological association to the vertical aspect of the Lord’s Prayer.

 

[pprimeau1976]

And when we “evangelize” and bring new members to the faith, we tell them to do WHAT during the “Our Father”?

We tell them to pray during the “Our Father.”

Some folks have their hands folded, some outstretched, others holding hands, etc. – this certainly doesn’t shows the unity of Catholics in prayer.

The fact that we are all praying the Our Father is enough.

 

[pprimeau1976]

After reading all of these messages, why are we debating the orans or the holding of hands? I can think of a zillion worse things that can be done during the our father.

Which is worse, putting your hands in the right “posture” while *reciting *the “Our Father” or not caring about the posture while praying the “Our Father”

 

[otjm]

Holding hands has no general liturgical meaning; this type of example is often thrown into the discussion by those who don’t like standing on ones head, as if it were a fine example of why standing on ones head is wrong. It is the use of illogic to prove one’s point, and being illogical, does not do so.

Standing on ones head and holding hands have 2 significant similarities…they both are NOT in the GIRM and both have equal theological association to the vertical aspect of the Lord’s Prayer.

Sorry, you are wrong unless you are a whole lot smarter and a whole better trained liturgically that Archbishop Chaput.

Holding hands is a sign of unity. The Our Father is a community prayer (that is all people saying it together - in unison, which is in unity). Your comment about verticle is funny, as it is the complaint thown around with abandon for those who think that going to Mass is an individual act of worship, not both an individual act and a corporate act.

And I have read the GIRM, and there is nothing in there about how the laity holds their hands; it is unregulated (as Archbishop Chaput has pointed out). So your comments about the fact that standing on one’s head is not regulated are totally irrelevant. There are multi-millons of things that are not mentioned in the GIRM but that does not have anything to do with the conversation. Most everybody else gets the fact that holding hands is a sign of unity, and unity is an issue having to do with Liturgy. There are many who feel that while it is a sign of unity, the Our Father may not be the best place to show a sign of unity, and I have no bone to pick with them.

In short, I have no dog in the fight; I don’t care if people hold hands or don’t hold hands, as that is such an insignificant item in terms of worship that it pales into almost compete insignificance. What does matter is that we love God with our whole hearts, and our whole minds, and our whole souls. We are there in Mass for parise, petition, thanksgiving and reparation. If holding hands helps some people to do that better, and because Rome has made a point of not disallowing it (and in fact, on another matter has said that they don’t intend to regulate postures so rigidly - that coming from Cardinal Arinze himself about whether people sit or stand or knell after returning to their seats upon reception of Communion), then I have no problem with it. If you have a problem with it, then don’t hold hands. And quit criticizing others who do.

 

[THurifer2]

Holding hands is a sign of unity…

Says who? Please give me documentation from the Vatican that says so…Oh and how about some early church fathers on the matter too.

The Our Father is a community prayer (that is all people saying it together - in unison, which is in unity)…

Says who? Please give me documentation from the Vatican that says so…Oh and how about some early church fathers on the matter too.

The Our Father is a community prayer (that is all people saying it together - in unison, which is in unity)…

Since you are telling us how it is…could you please explain to me the purpose of the kiss of peace?

And I have read the GIRM, .

I have read it in latin. Please credential yourself theologically regarding the liturgy…

P.S. Chaput ROCKS

 

[otjm]

Says who? Please give me documentation from the Vatican that says so…Oh and how about some early church fathers on the matter too.

Show me a document that says the Vatican has to wade in on this. There is none; even comments out of the Vatican have acknowledged that holding hands is seen as a sign of unity.

Since you are telling us how it is…could you please explain to me the purpose of the kiss of peace?

Do you know so little about the Liturgy that you need it explained to you?

I have read it in latin. Please credential yourself theologically regarding the liturgy…

Do you think you are the only one who can do that? And further, what does it have to do with the conversation? I have studied both Latin and koine Greek. So what?

I think in my prior post I said, I don’t have a dog in the fight. If you don’t want to hold hands, don’t. If you have to be rude to accomplish what you want, then I would ask what is the the purpose of being at Mass. If you can accomplish it without being rude, well, thats just special. And that is not to excuse anyone else who grabs your hand when you don’t want to hold theirs.

As I said, there are those who feel that liturgically it doesn’t make sense to hold hands when shortly after that we exchange the kiss of peace; if you actually read all of my post you would have noted I said I have no bone to pick with them.

In short, if holding hands gets your panties in a twist, then please don’t do it. If holding your hands in the typical palms-together fashion makes your socks roll up and down, please, be my guest.

Personally, I try to concentrate on the words of the Our Father so deeply that I am not really aware of how I have my hands - holding the next person’s or not. It is just a non-issue. I would hope and pray that some day you could be as deeply involved with the prayer that it didn’t make a difference to you either.

Oh, and if you think that the Vatican has to tell us that holding hands is a sign of unity before anyone can say it is, you have a very strange notion of what the Vatican is about; you also have a rather isolated experience of other human beings. But then, the problem with common sense is that it is not too common.

 

[PeVee]

The priests in my diocese are essentially under a gag order from the Bishop of Charlotte. When I asked my priest about the orens position in the congregation and the protestant hand-holding during the Our Father, he told me he was under orders to do nothing to stop the practice and nothing to encourage it.

Having your hands together in prayer has been the tradition for 1500 years, who gave these people the authority to change it? Or have they declared themselves little popes for their personal cafeteria Catholic denomination/

 

[THurifer2]

In short, if holding hands gets your panties in a twist, then please don’t do it. If holding your hands in the typical palms-together fashion makes your socks roll up and down, please, be my guest.

Hilarious response…

you also have a rather isolated experience of other human beings. But then, the problem with common sense is that it is not too common.

I thought pointed comments towards others is not allowed on this board…SEE!!! see what hand holding has done!!! If this unauthorized liturgical act was never introduced you would have never insulted me with your comment about common sense.

 

[Rocky8311]

It’s pretty unfair to try to make it sound like those who don’t want to hold hands are causing a problem. If one of us doesn’t have the sense to politely close their eyes and fold their hands at the Lord’s Prayer without making eye contact, and feels the need to give a sour face to those around them instead, then yes, there would be a problem in their motivations.

Most of the time, no one’s going to be bothered by someone choosing to reverently fold their hands in prayer, especially if they are able to give a genuine sign of peace thereafter.

Someone probably has stories about someone forcibly taking their hand…so what? That’s just crazy, and it’s not going to be more than an isolated occurrence unless something in your demeanor is betraying that your decision is in fact made to be hostile.

Those who desire the holding of hands to be an act of peaceful unity wouldn’t react angrily to a decision not to hold hands. It is a third party of people uneducated in the liturgy, but independently zealous of what they think is orthodoxy in the liturgy who would be a problem.

 

[johnnydigit]

when i have the choice, i close my hands. when people around me are holding hands, i hold hands.

i had always been brought up holding hands. when i was told that it was a liturgical abuse, i wanted to be the “most correct” and started not to. it started to feel better to me and i would prefer not to hold hands.
when i learned on my own that it was indeed not a liturgical abuse but just less traditional, and that the bishops allow both, i decided that when i could, i would rather close my hands and feel more “devout”, but when my friends or people around me joined hands, i would do so. i would rather not distract them from the mass and have them feel closer to God, at the cost of me feeling less comfortable.

of course if there is an abuse going on then i will act on it, but since this is allowed, it is no one’s business to force either one. in either case, do it with a smile for God’s sake.

 

[MJ_1964]

St. Therese said “I would rather die, then to break one rubric of the Mass.” It seems to me that the faith and obedience of one young girl has yet again out shined that of our Bishops and many adults in the pew. If the Rubrics were that important to our young saint, then maybe just maybe they ought to be that important to us. If the Rubrics do not prescribe us holding hands then we should not be doing. The rubrics does not say, that I shouldn’t be running up and down the aisle ways during the Our Father but, that doesn’t give me the right to do it. Clasp your hands during the Our Father and stop trying to dictate your preferred posture at Mass. Many of our Bishops today are failing to teach, they are allowing us sheep to roam free, and some of us are roaming away from home amidst the confusion. So I beg our Bishops, please lead me, please guide me in the faith, don’t leave me to my own demises, I’ve tried that it lead me away from my savior. Do your jobs, and teach, isn’t that why He left us a Church, so that we would have a guide?

MJ

 

[JimR-OCDS]

St. Therese said “I would rather die, then to break one rubric of the Mass.” It seems to me that the faith and obedience of one young girl has yet again out shined that of our Bishops and many adults in the pew. If the Rubrics were that important to our young saint, then maybe just maybe they ought to be that important to us. If the Rubrics do not prescribe us holding hands then we should not be doing. The rubrics does not say, that I shouldn’t be running up and down the aisle ways during the Our Father but, that doesn’t give me the right to do it. Clasp your hands during the Our Father and stop trying to dictate your preferred posture at Mass. Many of our Bishops today are failing to teach, they are allowing us sheep to roam free, and some of us are roaming away from home amidst the confusion. So I beg our Bishops, please lead me, please guide me in the faith, don’t leave me to my own demises, I’ve tried that it lead me away from my savior. Do your jobs, and teach, isn’t that why He left us a Church, so that we would have a guide?

MJ

What did St Theresa mean by this, what was the context in which she was speaking?

After all, little 15 year old Theresa, when meeting the Pope, was told that she was not to speak or ask questions. She not only disobeyed this order, but even got into a little debate with the Holy Father. Good thing she did, or we might not be calling her Saint Theresa.

The point I’m making here is that we should not ignore the Rubrics, but neither should we accuse others of violating the Rubrics when the Bishops themselves, have not stated that holding hands during the Lords Prayer, must not be done.
They haven’t taken the position one way or another and my own Bishops have been to my where holding hands is done all the time.

Jim

 

[MJ_1964]

I would bet that 95% of the people, who are arguing that the posture during the Our Father isn’t that important, are the ones holding hands. Why do I say that, because if following the “rules” of the Church were important you wouldn’t be doing it. When I was younger my mother did not tell me, to stay out of the street every time I went outside, never did I think that since she hadn’t told me that it gave the right to do it. Do not ask me to follow you in your disobedient ways, and stop judging me when I don’t follow you. I get looks at Mass as if I’m the one with the hard heart, and I’m the one trying to be obedient. If you want to fellowship that’s great, but the Our Father is not the place to do it. Ask yourself this question. If holding hands during the Our Father is so right, then why don’t you let go of the persons hand when the prayer is done. The end of the prayer is “deliver us from evil", you should have learned that in the 1st grade, everybody continues to hold hands until after "for the kingdom and the power and the glory ect. That is NOT a part of the Our Father, that is a doxology. The other thing that is so laughable, if you’re so intent on holding hands, then why not keep holding hands until after the Amen. Nobody holds hands until Amen, why is that? I’ll tell ya why, because it is not about holding hands, it is not about be “nice” to the person next to you, it is about being disobedient. I have a child that acts the same way, you tell her to pick up her clothes and she’ll leave one sock one the floor just to prove that she is independent and is making up her own rules .The holding hands is the same thing, if it was not about defiance, then they would be stopping when the Our Father is done, or they would at least wait until the Amen. I believe it started out simple enough, somebody probably seen the person next to them mimic the priest using the Orans position, they touched hands and it’s been confusion ever since, either that or some disobedient priest of the 70s sitting around a camp fire smoking dope with the cyo kids though it would be “cool” to do it during Mass. If the priest at the time had stepped up to the plate and lead, we would not be having this discussion today. The hand holders always ask, what is so wrong with holding hands during mass? It is so wrong because your example leads others astray from the true teachers of the faith. One year in CCD kids are taught to hold hands the next year their taught it’s wrong, no wonder so many leave the Church as adults.

Just one mans opinion
MJ

 

[JimR-OCDS]

MJ

I would bet that 95% of the people, who are arguing that the posture during the Our Father isn’t that important, are the ones holding hands.

Well I do both actually. It doesn’t bother me one way or another, but I’ll not give the cold shoulder to a person who reaches out to hold my hand.

Why do I say that, because if following the “rules” of the Church were important you wouldn’t be doing it.

True and the rules don’t specify one way or another and neither do the Bishops.

However, I do know a Catholic priest who was adamant about following the Rubrics and forbade holding hands during the Lords Prayer, at Mass.

He’s no longer a priest however. He was arrested with a male prostitute in Las Vegas two years ago.

So much for the sanctimonious attitude in strict observance to the rubrics.

Followed the letter of the law and ignored the spirit of the law.

When I was younger my mother did not tell me, to stay out of the street every time I went outside, never did I think that since she hadn’t told me that it gave the right to do it.

Comparing something that could be physically dangerous to that which is merely an expression of love and unity is really going to the extreme.

Do not ask me to follow you in your disobedient ways, and stop judging me when I don’t follow you.

No one judges you. In fact, the only threads opened in this forum are by those who judge those who hold hands, as being disobedient to the Church.

I get looks at Mass as if I’m the one with the hard heart, and I’m the one trying to be obedient.

You’re neither being obedient nor are those who hold hands disobedient. The rubrics are not specific and the Bishops have not issued a mandate. Do you think they’re not aware that some parishes are holding hands during the Lords Prayer?

If you want to fellowship that’s great, but the Our Father is not the place to do it. Ask yourself this question. If holding hands during the Our Father is so right, then why don’t you let go of the persons hand when the prayer is done.

I don’t know, but why do you eventually stop holding your wife’s hand? At some point you do.

The end of the prayer is “deliver us from evil", you should have learned that in the 1st grade, everybody continues to hold hands until after "for the kingdom and the power and the glory ect.

When I was in 1st grade, the Mass was in Latin. People barely looked at each other during Mass, never mind hold hands. Maybe thats a piece of the past that should become more common today?

Just one mans opinion

Thanks for sharing.

Jim

 

[Denae]

Before my old Church closed, I went to Lifeteen there, and the teens held hands during the Our Father…it was…ehh to me. Sometimes, I would be not able to focus on the prayer…

In my new Parish, we typically don’t hold hands, but families do if they want. One time though, an old woman grabbed my hand for the Our Father…very off putting. Her hands were very sweaty and hot and I couldn’t even concentrate. I just hold my hands together and pray.