Holding hands during the Our Father

[FAB]

You stated I only used scripture to point out that not all the time did Jesus allow Himself to be touched. No where in that passage does it state about not holding hands at mass, I know that, but I only applied it to you becuase of you statment about Christ touching others. Again He touched and healed during the time that He saw fit, but there was also a moment where he was not to be touched. I only compare that moment to the Mass, where focus is all on God.

In the New American Bible it does not say do not touch me but rather “Stop holding onto me” . The passage does not indicate how Mary was holding him, by the hand, or cloak, or with he grief. It does not seem that He did not want her to hold Him, but rather conforting and sending her on a mission to disciples.
More of in the mannor of: now now Mary, all is well, I am alive, let go of me now and go tell the others of what you seen.
Before this passage Mary is seen crying, pleading to know were Jesus had been taken.
There is no reason to think that person of Jesus, who comforted so many before his death would now tell one of His most devouted believers not to touch him at her time of greatest grief. His very appearance to her, seems to be to comfort her.
Your attempt of a comparison, my friend, falls short.
Peace,
FAB

 

[FAB]

It’s not an opinion it’s the truth. 24/7 we have time to dedicate to ourselves, family and neighbors, why can’t we focus, woship, and dedicate an entire hour to our Lord, without being distracted,years.

Because the celebration of the mass is not a personal devotion or an houor of prayer by oneself. It is a celebration of the entire community of the faithful , which is focused on the Lord.

Peace,
FAB

 

[adrift]

Your link doesn’t work, but the part you put in your second quote box is not a quotation from the CDWDS, it’s a gloss, the personal opinion of the EWTN employee who wrote this page.

Thanks for providing a working link.

My answer was unclear. It was not meant to be a quotation from CDWDS.
Colin B. Donovan, STL is making the comments.

While this addresses the holding of hands at the Sign of Peace the reasons given apply also elsewhere in the Mass, including at the Our Father.

He says much more with which I agree.
As for Colin Donovan,he is Vice President for Theology at EWTN. A layman, he has the Licentiate in Sacred Theology, with a specialization in moral theology, from the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas (Angelicum) in Rome, where he wrote on the Donation of the Spouses in Marriage. He earned the BTh from the Seminary of Christ the King in Mission, BC, Canada and the BA in Biological Science from Northwestern University, Evanston, IL. Prior to coming to EWTN in 1995, he taught Theology at Aquinas College in Nashville.

 

[tapinu33]

Vat II has allowed all this to creep into the Holy Mass. It was never allowed and should not be allowed now. Holding hands in Church and then people who receive Our Lord in the hand …(horrific) where have all our hands been? Receiving from the laity (horrific) Who are we to handle Our Lord, who are we to be clapping for each other and holding hands to pray in the presence of Our Lord ?? Reverence is Pure Love for Our Lord

 

[angelic06]

FAB:

“It seems to me that those who object to the practice are focused on themself and NOT on God.”

Nonsense. Handholding is a distraction to ME, maybe others will find it an aid to prayer. Good for them. But for me, and I speak on my own behalf and not on others, handholding distracts me from my prayers (who knows where my fellow worshippers hands were before the Pater Noster). I’ve never felt like I was truly praying in the 20 + years I’ve been told that handholding was THE appropriate position for praying the Pater Noster. Now, that I can close my eyes and pray w/o the distraction of handholding, I finally feel I am truly at prayer.

Perhaps you should put your claims to the billions of Catholics and other Christians who prayed the Pater Noster before the handholding custom became widespread.

You should emphasize that YOUR desired position of prayer is YOUR own desired position of prayer, not merely claim that people who object to it are focusing on themselves.

 

[archangel04]

Because the celebration of the mass is not a personal devotion or an houor of prayer by oneself. It is a celebration of the entire community of the faithful , which is focused on the Lord.

Peace,
FAB

Perhaps you are right about scripture as I am not fully there yet with it, but mass is were the community becomes one in Christ by partaking in the Eucharist physically or spiritually, not by holding hands. The holding hand fad is just that a fad that in about a decade will soon be gone.

 

[archangel04]

Vat II has allowed all this to creep into the Holy Mass. It was never allowed and should not be allowed now. Holding hands in Church and then people who receive Our Lord in the hand …(horrific) where have all our hands been? Receiving from the laity (horrific) Who are we to handle Our Lord, who are we to be clapping for each other and holding hands to pray in the presence of Our Lord ?? Reverence is Pure Love for Our Lord

VII never allowed this, no where in the documents do you see that we are allowed to hold hands or bring in our own practices. You can’t blame the council for the abuses that have crept into our Church, but instead blame the bishops, heretical theologians, and lack true Catholic education.

 

[FAB]

FAB:

“It seems to me that those who object to the practice are focused on themself and NOT on God.”

Nonsense.

Handholding is a distraction to ME, maybe others will find it an aid to prayer. Good for them. But for me, and I speak on my own behalf and not on others, handholding distracts me from my prayers (who knows where my fellow worshippers hands were before the Pater Noster).

 

[FAB]

Perhaps you are right about scripture as I am not fully there yet with it, but mass is were the community becomes one in Christ by partaking in the Eucharist physically or spiritually, not by holding hands. The holding hand fad is just that a fad that in about a decade will soon be gone.

Perhaps it will fade. But as a Church of physical and real signs an symbols, this is one that has been embraced and supported by the faithful and one that not even the Catholic Bishops, as I referenced in another post, are in agreement to it.

Peace,
FAB

 

[damooster]

I am from Europe and when I moved to the US I was horrified at how slack the Church is here.

I’m honestly embarrassed by this! People have forgotten the universality of our faith and look at what this hand-holding thing did; rather than make you feel welcome, it has alienated you even more (and I certainly don’t blame you). I’m sure you were expecting some differences because of culture, but it’s embarrassing to hear that your experiences of the parishes in America are considerably more slack than what you’re used to in Europe.

I will definitely keep you in my prayers!

 

[roadsend]

In the New American Bible it does not say do not touch me but rather “Stop holding onto me” . The passage does not indicate how Mary was holding him, by the hand, or cloak, or with he grief. It does not seem that He did not want her to hold Him, but rather conforting and sending her on a mission to disciples.
More of in the mannor of: now now Mary, all is well, I am alive, let go of me now and go tell the others of what you seen.
Before this passage Mary is seen crying, pleading to know were Jesus had been taken.
There is no reason to think that person of Jesus, who comforted so many before his death would now tell one of His most devouted believers not to touch him at her time of greatest grief. His very appearance to her, seems to be to comfort her.
Your attempt of a comparison, my friend, falls short.
Peace,
FAB

The New American Bible notwithstanding, the traditional gospel reading for Easter Sunday says Noli me tangere. (Don’t touch me.)
In the original Greek John used the expression Μή μου ἅπτου which can be rendered as “Don’t touch me” or “don’t grab me”.
Since St. Jerome chose tangere (touch), it is only reasonable to conclude that he believed that the author (John) meant “touch”.
Archangel04’s comparison in no way falls short.

 

[archangel04]

Perhaps it will fade. But as a Church of physical and real signs an symbols, this is one that has been embraced and supported by the faithful and one that not even the Catholic Bishops, as I referenced in another post, are in agreement to it.

Peace,
FAB

I have to disagree, perhaps the Bishops embrace this practice just like they embrace girl altar servers, and COTH, but most Catholics (atleast what I’ve seen and heard) don’t. In fact many young people I’ve come in contact don’t like the practice, I’ve been told by many young ones that the only reason they do it was because they thought it was part of the Mass. From what I’ve heard talking to younger people is that (in their words) holding hands is “cheesy” and even “lame”. Again these are not my words but some of the comments I’ve heard. A lot of guys in my parish don’t like the practice and it’s even started to fade out, I guess us guys are just insecure about our masculinity

The New American Bible notwithstanding, the traditional gospel reading for Easter Sunday says Noli me tangere. (Don’t touch me.)
In the original Greek John used the expression Μή μου ἅπτου which can be rendered as “Don’t touch me” or “don’t grab me”.
Since St. Jerome chose tangere (touch), it is only reasonable to conclude that he believed that the author (John) meant “touch”.
Archangel04’s comparison in no way falls short.

Thank you for the support, I always welcome any help that can make me understand better, especially an intelligent answer as yours

 

[jen_fla]

i never did like it even though it is widely practiced in the Philippines, some priests would even encourage everyone to hold hands

but i notice something, you seem to reject the practice because you see it as a protestant gesture? what is so bad if something good can be learned from the protestants? there are many Catholic traditions and celebrations that are pagan of origin, but i don’t hear people here complain about it why do we readily reject practices that are protestant in origin? my priest, when explaining why some traditions begin from pagan celebrations, says its like baptizing the feast to make it Catholic. why can’t we do the same baptism on Protestant practices and make it Catholic?

i reject it for three reasons. the first is that i can not stand people touching me unless i have already figured out in my head beforehand that it is ok. i have been assaulted and used by men in the past and to this day they continue to try to get their way and so i have issues with men touching men. intellectually i know that most men in Church are not even thinking along those lines, but it still makes me extremely uncomfortable as i go to Mass by myself and endure enough stares as it is. somedays i think the burqa is a good idea.

the second is that it is indeed distracting. there is something mystical happening and i’m trying to focus on that and this awkward chain of hand holding really puts me off. then they lift up my arms and it makes me want to laugh as i can’t help but thinking we’re about to do a wave. then i start thinking about a foam finger, but then instead of a finger a snake and then imagine we’re under a tent. i have a strong imagination that’s hard to turn off and it’s all just too distracting and annoying. i have never refused anyone that has “insisted” on grabbing my hand and i really don’t mind as much with the senior citizens as you can tell some seem to enjoy the contact. God bless them!

third, as to the protestant issue, well to be honest, i can’t think of one thing they have improved upon in the Catholic Mass. i have nothing against them and love all my friends that are protestant, but we should not be moving in their direction. they are so varied and i know some anglican services in europe can not be compared to some of the various denominations we have here in the states, but i have seen too many that just disgust me. it is all about associations. when i hear of someone standing at the pulpit yelling at people thumping their Bible saying people are going to hell and that God hates f%$s, i know that is a bad stray from the Holy Mass. the snake handlers or those so called churches that look like multimedia conference rooms with enormous flat screen tv’s, again are not improving upon the Holy Mass in anyway and all that really puts me off. there is such dignity in Catholic and Orthodox services that it sickens me to lose any of it. no offense to the many protestant denominations that don’t wave snakes around under the tent, but i think we need to see more of the former pic and not the latter.

just my opinion though. peace!

 

[adrift]

It isn’t that I object to the practice because I don’t like it. It is because the liturgy does not say to do it. The argument I have seen is that it does not proscribe what position we are in.

The Pope is who the liturgy belongs to.

It isn’t the family holding hands that is the problem to me. It is when everyone including the priest on the altar does so. Then it becomes a community action and one that is not authorized by the GIRM. It is then an unauthorized addition.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Today at Mass in the pew in front of me a woman who was by herself reached out to the people on each side of her to hold hands during the Our Father. I noticed that both people on each side were hesitant and tried to continue in their prayer, looking down, but the woman held out her hands until they agreed and held hands and then raising them high at end.
I really don’t like doing the hand holding bit during the Our Father, especially raising them at the end. I feel that is meant for the priest. I have read different places where it is a liturgical abuse, though, a minor one.

I was once at a Mass where the priest told everyone we were to hold hands. I didn’t return to that parish.

My question is: If you do not want to hold hands during the Our Father and someone is holding their hand out and almost insisting what would you do? What should you do?

I should say also that at this parish very few people do this.

In that type of parish, I keep my hands together, folded in prayer at my chest, and look down, just the same as at my TLM parish. The only difference is you have to stand for the Our Father at the NO parish. I wouldn’t hesitate to shake my head “No” if someone tried to force me into holding hands.

 

[Layman]

Perhaps Christ said “Don’t touch me” because He was not fully materialised; in transition between the spiritual and the material?

Like, when someone touched him before, “he felt the power go out of him”. So it was just a case of “Give me a minute, here”.

 

[FAB]

The New American Bible notwithstanding, the traditional gospel reading for Easter Sunday says Noli me tangere. (Don’t touch me.)
In the original Greek John used the expression Μή μου ἅπτου which can be rendered as “Don’t touch me” or “don’t grab me”.
Since St. Jerome chose tangere (touch), it is only reasonable to conclude that he believed that the author (John) meant “touch”.
Archangel04’s comparison in no way falls short.

Since our Lectionary is based on the New American Bible, that is the Easter reading and has been for years.
The appearnce to Mary is unique to John’s Gospel. The importance of the passage is not if Christ was to be touched, held, emdraced of clinged to, but that He was accending to the Father. John uses it to show that the one God is our God and Father.
Ity in no way indicates that we should refuse to be touched and has nothing to with holding hands or not during the Lord’s prayer.

Peace, FAB

 

[Bruce_in_Iloilo]

In the Philippines, the universal practice seems to be to hold hands during the Our Father but only the hands of your family and friends. Strangers next to you are studiously ignored. During the Peace people sort of nod at a few people but no attempt is made to acknowledge the existence of all the people immediately around you, let alone shake their hands.

Quote:

I know many theologians want to debat the correctness of this practice, but in the end, it may come down to the collective wisdom of the faithful who’s vast majority embrace it.

It is correct to note that the Church does not vote on such matters, but eventually the majority does decide. When practices and beliefs are held by a significant portion of the Church over a significant period they become acceptable and may even become doctrine or dogma.

As for hand-holding, thirty to forty years, about a generation, is not a significant amount of time (versus 2,000 year), nor is the practice widely accepted, in my estimation. In parts of the US and elsewhere it is widely practiced but it is not yet universal and there seems to be quite a bit of “back-sldiing”, i.e. places where hand-holding was once practiced no longer do so. I will be long dead before hand-holding has reached a length and breadth significant enough for the practice to be considered universal, if ever. Personally, I don’t think that the practice will have the requisite staying power.

 

[FAB]

I have to disagree, perhaps the Bishops embrace this practice just like they embrace girl altar servers, and COTH, but most Catholics (atleast what I’ve seen and heard) don’t. In fact many young people I’ve come in contact don’t like the practice, I’ve been told by many young ones that the only reason they do it was because they thought it was part of the Mass. From what I’ve heard talking to younger people is that (in their words) holding hands is “cheesy” and even “lame”. Again these are not my words but some of the comments I’ve heard. A lot of guys in my parish don’t like the practice and it’s even started to fade out, I guess us guys are just insecure about our masculinity

Thank you for the support, I always welcome any help that can make me understand better, especially an intelligent answer as yours

I work with young men, some do have a misguided idea of what it means to be masculine and holding another guys hand in prayer is one of them.
I acctually find the opposite is true with many young people, some males not withstanding.

As far as the bishops, the atttitude that thay are in error is also misguided. We are called in obediance to them and their teaching. A problem for many Catholics including traditionalist.

Peace,
FAB

 

[roadsend]

Since our Lectionary is based on the New American Bible, that is the Easter reading and has been for years.
The appearnce to Mary is unique to John’s Gospel. The importance of the passage is not if Christ was to be touched, held, emdraced of clinged to, but that He was accending to the Father. John uses it to show that the one God is our God and Father.
Ity in no way indicates that we should refuse to be touched and has nothing to with holding hands or not during the Lord’s prayer.

Peace, FAB

The Noli me tangere comes from the original rendition of the authoritative Easter Sunday gospel, not our or any other language group translation.
It has as much do do with the with the unapproved practice of holding hands during the Lord’s prayer as any other biblical quote that others have used on this thread to attempt to justify this illicit practice.