holy father?

[estesbob]

To Gardian 1, it is obvious you are in search of the truth, you have been raised a protestant and looked into Islam, now Catholicism, you are on a personal Journey. keep this in mind Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

Do they have to personally know Jesus and accept him as theur Savior? Is that enough? Neither Scripture or Tradition supports this view.

it is Good to question the Religions of this world and their belief systems and dogma, because we get it wrong sometimes, the Pope is a man just as you and I are men, he has given himself to a strict discipline and lifestyle however according to the Bible he is no more exceptable to God than you or I, If you confess Jesus as Lord of your life, you to are Holy infact you are part of a Royal preisthood. So to honor the Pope for his Discipline is a good thing to elevate him to a position equal to Jesus is wrong, we do this when we pray to him or ask him to stand between God and mankind.

Where did you ever get the idea ANYONE considered the Pope to be eqaul to Jesus? He is, however, the Vicar of Christ and the head of the Church founded Jesus. He can trace his lineage to St Peter himslef-he ,l like Peter holds the keys to the Kingdom.

Jesus said when pray say this “our Father who is in Heaven” the best thing you can do is pick up your Bible and begin to read it, unlike the Koran the Bible has an old covenant and a New Covenant, God made a new agreement with mankind in the new testament, Jesus removed the need for human intervention when it comes to you and God, you no longer need anyone to approach God on your behalf, Jesus said "no one comes to the father (God) but through me (Jesus) " you can go directly to the throne of God and he will listen to you. the only other thing is this John.14:26 say’s “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things” man can encourage, disciple and help you but the Holy Spirit Teaches you.

Sound nice but does this mean there is no need for a Church at all.? We all get to come to know what the Truth is by ourselves? What if we come up with different versons of the Truth-how do we reconcile that? For instance myfavoritemartin says Scripture tells us it is blasphemy to call anyone but God father. Many here disagreee with him yet we all read the same Bible. how do we reconcile this?

May God direct you on your pursuit of the Truth,

Marty

Lot easier if you do so in Conhucntion with the Church Jesus founded to guide us.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Hello there folks this is my First time on this site so please be nice. in reading this interesting blog I have noticed that you have gone off track, Gardian1 asked a question as to the Pope and calling him “Holy Father”

Just quickly to myfavouritmartin you seem to be a Charismatic, and that is fine as I am one myself, However you don’t have to prove yourself to be right and the others wrong, if you note what Gardian1 first said in response to your message and I quote “you seem to be a vindictive person who is here to cause problems” you have possibly given a poor representation of yourself.
my Dad once said "some people love to tell the truth, others, tell the truth in love. anyhow i also digress,

Welcome to CAF. We hope your stay here will be fruitful. As your profile states you are Born Again Christians. I like to welcome you as our separated brothers and sisters in Christ.

To Gardian 1, it is obvious you are in search of the truth, you have been raised a protestant and looked into Islam, now Catholicism, you are on a personal Journey. keep this in mind Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

it is Good to question the Religions of this world and their belief systems and dogma, because we get it wrong sometimes, the Pope is a man just as you and I are men, he has given himself to a strict discipline and lifestyle however according to the Bible he is no more exceptable to God than you or I, If you confess Jesus as Lord of your life, you to are Holy infact you are part of a Royal preisthood.

So to honor the Pope for his Discipline is a good thing to elevate him to a position equal to Jesus is wrong, we do this when we pray to him or ask him to stand between God and mankind. Jesus said when pray say this “our Father who is in Heaven” the best thing you can do is pick up your Bible and begin to read it, .

I like to make it clear that the Pope is not in a position equal to Jesus Christ himself. That is not the Catholic Church position. We address him as Holy Father, because he is a Spiritual Father of the Catholic Christian community. He oversees the flock, whom Jesus commanded Peter, “Feed my Sheep” (see John 21:15-17). The’s highest title is in fact, “The Servant of the Servants of God.”

 

[mercygate]

Coming out of a “Bible” tradition (from which I was thoroughly cured during my lengthy sojourn in the sublime pastures of Anglicanism before swimmiing the Tiber), I see this thread as a perfect example of what happens when you try to understand Christianity only through the “book.” Such a faith is pure humbug. The Book dissociated from its Author is poison. Embedded in the heart of Jesus Christ and the bosom of his Church it becomes a light on a hill. Taken by itself, without the light of reason and Sacred Tradition the Book becomes a locus for confusion, controversy and contention.

 

[guanophore]

If you confess Jesus as Lord of your life, you to are Holy infact you are part of a Royal preisthood. So to honor the Pope for his Discipline is a good thing to elevate him to a position equal to Jesus is wrong, we do this when we pray to him or ask him to stand between God and mankind.
Marty

Welcome to the forum Marty. I agree with most of what you said, but I think it takes more than just “confessing” Jesus as Lord in order to be holy. For example

Rom 12:1-2
12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to **present your bodies **as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world but **be transformed **by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."

We are to present our bodies, as you note about the spiritual disciplines, and be transformed. Many people will say “Lord, Lord” but will not do the things that Jesus commanded (like baptism).

It is not wrong to ask others to pray for us, or for them to stand in the gap for us. This is the ministry of intercessory prayer. “The effectual, fervent prayers of a righteous man availeth much”, so those persons who are offering themselves as sacrifice to God will have more effective prayers.

I agree that we all are equal before God, and salvation is open to all, but it is possible to grow in grace, and some have grown more than others.

2 Peter 1:5-9
5 For this very reason **make every effort **to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Those who work at spiritual discipline (in addition to confessing Christ as Lord) will bear much fruit, and will be more effective for Jesus.

 

[hosemonkey]

Coming out of a “Bible” tradition (from which I was thoroughly cured during my lengthy sojourn in the sublime pastures of Anglicanism before swimmiing the Tiber), I see this thread as a perfect example of what happens when you try to understand Christianity only through the “book.” Such a faith is pure humbug. The Book dissociated from its Author is poison. Embedded in the heart of Jesus Christ and the bosom of his Church it becomes a light on a hill. Taken by itself, without the light of reason and Sacred Tradition the Book becomes a locus for confusion, controversy and contention.

So true!

 

[revmarty]

Do they have to personally know Jesus and accept him as theur Savior? Is that enough? Neither Scripture or Tradition supports this view.

Where did you ever get the idea ANYONE considered the Pope to be eqaul to Jesus? He is, however, the Vicar of Christ and the head of the Church founded Jesus. He can trace his lineage to St Peter himslef-he ,l like Peter holds the keys to the Kingdom.

Sound nice but does this mean there is no need for a Church at all.? We all get to come to know what the Truth is by ourselves? What if we come up with different versons of the Truth-how do we reconcile that? For instance myfavoritemartin says Scripture tells us it is blasphemy to call anyone but God father. Many here disagreee with him yet we all read the same Bible. how do we reconcile this?

Lot easier if you do so in Conhucntion with the Church Jesus founded to guide us.

In Simplistic terms yes, that is it but that is not just saying the traditional reteric of most born again Rev.C.Harinck wrote this comment on being born again form John 3 "What purpose did Jesus have in saying “you must be born again” to Nicodemus and thereby to all men? Jesus meant to say: “Nicodemus, you have religion, honor and power; but more is necessary. You must be born again.” The Lord Jesus recognized the real need of Nicodemus. He saw that Nicodemus had a heart concealed under his long robe that was hungry for more than he presently possessed. Christ sensed that Nicodemus was not satisfied either with his power and position or his piety. Christ knew that Nicodemus could not find rest or peace with God in the rites, strictness and ceremonies of the Pharisees.
Therefore Jesus informed him of the new birth. It was as if He said, Nicodemus, your trouble is within. Your trouble is not cured by putting on a new front and living religiously. You must be brought into a new relationship with God.

I did not mean to infer that the catholic faith declared the Pope equal to Jesus, my sincere appologies.

there is a great need for the Church however the Church that Jesus established, was not the Catholic Church nor was it the Baptist, Protestant, Church of England or even born again bible thumpers, he established a Church that is the Body of Christ the Bride for a Perfect Groom this Church is not a name, organizartion or denomination it is people who are born again in the spirit. We are his bride his Church you and me.
The Holy Spirit leads us in the truth.

I call my dad Father, This portion of Scripture is warning that we are not to give any man or Leader the same Honor, worship or Glory that belongs to God, for God is a Jealous God.
Spot on the Church in the contexts you refer to is what Paul calls the gathering of the bretheren, don’t forsake it.

Thank you for the Chat

 

[revmarty]

Welcome to the forum Marty. I agree with most of what you said, but I think it takes more than just “confessing” Jesus as Lord in order to be holy. For example

Rom 12:1-2
12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to **present your bodies **as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world but **be transformed **by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."

We are to present our bodies, as you note about the spiritual disciplines, and be transformed. Many people will say “Lord, Lord” but will not do the things that Jesus commanded (like baptism).

It is not wrong to ask others to pray for us, or for them to stand in the gap for us. This is the ministry of intercessory prayer. “The effectual, fervent prayers of a righteous man availeth much”, so those persons who are offering themselves as sacrifice to God will have more effective prayers.

I agree that we all are equal before God, and salvation is open to all, but it is possible to grow in grace, and some have grown more than others.

2 Peter 1:5-9
5 For this very reason **make every effort **to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Those who work at spiritual discipline (in addition to confessing Christ as Lord) will bear much fruit, and will be more effective for Jesus.

Thank you for the welcome, I agree totally.

Have a blessed day

 

[revmarty]

Coming out of a “Bible” tradition (from which I was thoroughly cured during my lengthy sojourn in the sublime pastures of Anglicanism before swimmiing the Tiber), I see this thread as a perfect example of what happens when you try to understand Christianity only through the “book.” Such a faith is pure humbug. The Book dissociated from its Author is poison. Embedded in the heart of Jesus Christ and the bosom of his Church it becomes a light on a hill. Taken by itself, without the light of reason and Sacred Tradition the Book becomes a locus for confusion, controversy and contention.

How is it do you think that the early Christians managed without the structured walls of the Church? and you are perfectly right “the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing” we can not know or understand the word of God the Bible without having the holy spirit first open our eyes.

 

[hosemonkey]

How is it do you think that the early Christians managed without the structured walls of the Church? and you are perfectly right “the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing” we can not know or understand the word of God the Bible without having the holy spirit first open our eyes.

Early Christians were people on the run. They were savagely persecuted by the government. Structure grew out of the necessity for survival. To be a follower of Christ was a huge risk and leaders were ordained to replace the slain and rules were made in order that the Church could continue in spite of persecution. Our first Pope, Saint Peter, was martyred in Rome, but not before his authority was passed to another.

 

[revmarty]

Early Christians were people on the run. They were savagely persecuted by the government. Structure grew out of the necessity for survival. To be a follower of Christ was a huge risk and leaders were ordained to replace the slain and rules were made in order that the Church could continue in spite of persecution. Our first Pope, Saint Peter, was martyred in Rome, but not before his authority was passed to another.

Firsly if we use your principle, then the Christians in Asia could basically do as they wish and truly lay claim to saying that they heard the Holy Spirit or Jesus say this or that and because their persecution is great and almost like that of the apostals we would have to eccept their evidence.
also the Bible is the Authouritive word of God, But let’s asume you look at history books or non-Christian documents as to the fact of your statement that Peter was in rome and was Martyred there, there are indeed no biblical or historical accounts of Peter being in Rome for that event to take place, also Jesus asked peter who do people say I am and then peter said in Matthew 16:18 you are the son of God, Jesus then say’s And I say to thee. thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, this was not Peter but his revelation of Who Jesus is, So Jesus never declared or annointed Peter as a Pope, the word Pope never appears in the Word of God anywhere. Man is falible God would not use a man as his foundation, he Jesus is the Cornerstone of our faith, Jesus the Son of the Living God, God made flesh.

Thank you again

MARTY

 

[hosemonkey]

Firsly if we use your principle, then the Christians in Asia could basically do as they wish and truly lay claim to saying that they heard the Holy Spirit or Jesus say this or that and because their persecution is great and almost like that of the apostals we would have to eccept their evidence.
also the Bible is the Authouritive word of God, But let’s asume you look at history books or non-Christian documents as to the fact of your statement that Peter was in rome and was Martyred there, there are indeed no biblical or historical accounts of Peter being in Rome for that event to take place, also Jesus asked peter who do people say I am and then peter said in Matthew 16:18 you are the son of God, Jesus then say’s And I say to thee. thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, this was not Peter but his revelation of Who Jesus is, So Jesus never declared or annointed Peter as a Pope, the word Pope never appears in the Word of God anywhere. Man is falible God would not use a man as his foundation, he Jesus is the Cornerstone of our faith, Jesus the Son of the Living God, God made flesh.

Thank you again

MARTY

Your first paragraph makes no sense.
Saint Peter WAS martyred in Rome. His bones were found exactly where ancient accounts said they would be. Saint Peter WAS commissioned by Jesus Christ Himself to shepherd the Church. Christ signified this by changing Simon’s name. Protestants will try frantically to worm out of this fact because it firmly establishes the primacy and authority of the Catholic Church. The word “Pope” of course does not appear in Scripture, the word being derived from the Latin “Papa” or Father. Many other words do not appear in Scriture either, such as “Trinity”. Do you believe in the Holy Trinity, in spite of the fact that it does not appear in the Bible? Your arguments have been addressed on these forums many, many times. You are not breaking new ground.

 

[Pax]

I am constantly amazed how you guys verbally treat the written word of God.

Scripture gives us what we need unto salvation.

Get serious…you know quite well what I’m getting at. You have nothing left but yourself to understand and interpret scripture. It is not the word of God in scripture that I am in any way treating poorly…verbally or otherwise.

My respect for the word of God is such that I do not think that anyone should believe for a moment that they can infallibly interpret it for themselves. My criticism is with your position on this issue of personal interpretation.

I hope that explains where I and others are coming from. Address that issue and abandon the red herrings and misdirection.

 

[guanophore]

Firsly if we use your principle, then the Christians in Asia could basically do as they wish and truly lay claim to saying that they heard the Holy Spirit or Jesus say this or that and because their persecution is great and almost like that of the apostals we would have to eccept their evidence.

No, revmarty, you are missing the point. All testimony was compared to the Apostolic teaching. If it was not consistent, it was not considered as coming from the HS.

also the Bible is the Authouritive word of God, But let's asume you look at history books or non-Christian documents as to the fact of your statement that Peter was in rome and was Martyred there,

How did you determine that the Bible is the Authoritative Word of God, revmarty?

there are indeed no biblical or historical accounts of Peter being in Rome for that event to take place,

Making a statement like this causes you to appear uneducated.

also Jesus asked peter who do people say I am and then peter said in Matthew 16:18 you are the son of God, Jesus then say’s And I say to thee. thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, this was not Peter but his revelation of Who Jesus is,

This is a common evangelical interpretation that rejects the teaching of the Apostles.

So Jesus never declared or annointed Peter as a Pope, the word Pope never appears in the Word of God anywhere. Man is falible God would not use a man as his foundation, he Jesus is the Cornerstone of our faith, Jesus the Son of the Living God, God made flesh.

Yes, Jesus is the cornerstone of our faith, but you are wrong that Jesus never appointed or annointed Peter to be shepherd of the shepherds. This has been covered extensively in other threads here. If you search for pope or peter, then you can take your pick.

 

[Brian_C]

Firsly if we use your principle, then the Christians in Asia could basically do as they wish and truly lay claim to saying that they heard the Holy Spirit or Jesus say this or that and because their persecution is great and almost like that of the apostals we would have to eccept their evidence.
also the Bible is the Authouritive word of God, But let’s asume you look at history books or non-Christian documents as to the fact of your statement that Peter was in rome and was Martyred there, there are indeed no biblical or historical accounts of Peter being in Rome for that event to take place, also Jesus asked peter who do people say I am and then peter said in Matthew 16:18 you are the son of God, Jesus then say’s And I say to thee. thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, this was not Peter but his revelation of Who Jesus is, So Jesus never declared or annointed Peter as a Pope, the word Pope never appears in the Word of God anywhere. Man is falible God would not use a man as his foundation, he Jesus is the Cornerstone of our faith, Jesus the Son of the Living God, God made flesh.

Thank you again

MARTY

Sounds like a good point (well not really) to discuss in another thread without taking this one further off track.

 

[Randy_Carson]

This caused me to back throught the last 25 posts I have made, I have no idea what you are talking about!
I’d like you to look at what your brethren here have been slinging at me that is the height of CHARITY…

Dean-

Please…we know you better than that.

You have a lot of posts and a lot of history online here.

Behaving yourself for the past 25 posts is a nice start, but not much more than that…

C’mon…

 

[Randy_Carson]

I am trying to get this strait, instead of Jesus just saying I want unity, HE spoke in code instead using the term “call no man Father”

Dean-

Knowing your flawed understanding of John 6, I can see that you fall into a literalist interpretation yet again with this phrase.

 

[Randy_Carson]

John.14:26 say’s “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things” man can encourage, disciple and help you but the Holy Spirit Teaches you.

May God direct you on your pursuit of the Truth,

Marty

Marty-

You are correct. The pope is a man and a sinner just like the rest of us. No Catholic believes otherwise. He has received a unique charism as a result of his office, however; namely, infallibility in matters of faith and morals when he teaches within VERY narrow guidelines. This is a protection of the Holy Spirit and guidance into all truth is not a gift made to all men.

In the passage you quoted above, where did Jesus speak these words? On a hillside before thousands or in a quiet room with his most intimate Apostles present?

Context, Marty.

Jesus did not promise that the Holy Spirit would lead all men into all truth individually. If you claim otherwise, you will need to explain carefully to me how “approved workmen” divide the Word of God so differently on doctrines such as infant baptism using the “Bible Alone” and the Holy Spirit as their guides.

Being led into all truth, or infallibility, is a unique charism that belongs only to the magisterium of the Catholic Church and the Pope individually.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Church_Militant]

I fail to see Titus calling him "Father

Paul".You are so wrong on this one Simon…

Titus 1:4 To Titus my beloved son, according to the common faith, grace and peace from God the Father, and from Christ Jesus our Saviour. (DRB)

and in the KJV…4: To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Acts 7:2: And Stephen said: "Brethren and fathers, hear me. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopota’mia, before he lived in Haran, Was St. Stephen wrong here? Or is it that he knew what Christ meant…and you do not want to hear it?

Acts 22:1: “Brethren and fathers, hear the defense which I now make before you.” Is St. Paul in error here? Or…are you?

1st Corinthians 4:15: For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. Oh look! St. Paul again states that he is father to believers… Is he wrong here too?

So… the weight of the Word of God is against you on this one Simon. If Paul & Stephen are free to use the title on themselves and even the Jewish elders, then your position does not line up with either ones teaching.

 

[estesbob]

In Simplistic terms yes, that is it but that is not just saying the traditional reteric of most born again Rev.C.Harinck wrote this comment on being born again form John 3 "What purpose did Jesus have in saying “you must be born again” to Nicodemus and thereby to all men? Jesus meant to say: “Nicodemus, you have religion, honor and power; but more is necessary. You must be born again.” The Lord Jesus recognized the real need of Nicodemus. He saw that Nicodemus had a heart concealed under his long robe that was hungry for more than he presently possessed. Christ sensed that Nicodemus was not satisfied either with his power and position or his piety. Christ knew that Nicodemus could not find rest or peace with God in the rites, strictness and ceremonies of the Pharisees.
Therefore Jesus informed him of the new birth. It was as if He said, Nicodemus, your trouble is within. Your trouble is not cured by putting on a new front and living religiously. You must be brought into a new relationship with God.

How does any of that translate into only needing to “born again” to be saved? I mean its a nice story and a very pleasant interertation but it appears that other than that there is no" there there"

I , BTW, can never recall entering a “new” relationship with Christ I have been in close relationship with him since my parents had me baptized when I was less than a month old. I had a close relationship with the Lord before i was even aware he existed. That was a gift to me both from God and my parents.

. The biggest change in my relationship came when I was 7 and actually got to receive the physical Body and Blood of the our Lord and Savior. This morning I once again held our Lord & Saviors Physical Body in my hands and followed his instructions to eat his body and drink his blood. There is no way you can have a closer relationship than that.

I

did not mean to infer that the catholic faith declared the Pope equal to Jesus, my sincere appologies.

there is a great need for the Church however the Church that Jesus established, was not the Catholic Church nor was it the Baptist, Protestant, Church of England or even born again bible thumpers, he established a Church that is the Body of Christ the Bride for a Perfect Groom this Church is not a name, organizartion or denomination it is people who are born again in the spirit. We are his bride his Church you and me.
The Holy Spirit leads us in the truth.

Of course it was the Catholic Church. There simply no evidence of another credible Christian Church until 1,500 years after Christ founded his Church. The idea that there was no physical Chuch was not beleived by hardly anyone from the time of the Aposles unitl the 16th Century. I suggest you do some readings of the writings of the Church Fathers.-some of whom lived in the early 1st centtury. If you read them you will see there was no doubt in their minds that what became known as the Catholic Church was the one true Chruch. You will also find for the first 1,500 years of Christianity the core doctrines of protestanism (Sola Scriptura and Sola Fidels) had not been taught by anyone-more or less believed. Of course since neither is supported by Scripture or tradition that should come as no suprise

I call my dad Father, This portion of Scripture is warning that we are not to give any man or Leader the same Honor, worship or Glory that belongs to God, for God is a Jealous God.
Spot on the Church in the contexts you refer to is what Paul calls the gathering of the bretheren, don’t forsake it.

Myfavoritemartin and many others who have visited these forums claim that to call anyone but God “father” is blasphemy. They read the same bible you do and claim that the Spirit will reveal the truth to anyone who studies scipture-just like you do. So how do we reconcile this? Are there many versions of the truth ?

 

[Randy_Carson]

This portion of Scripture is warning that we are not to give any man or Leader the same Honor, worship or Glory that belongs to God, for God is a Jealous God.

Are you listening to these words from a
non-Catholic Christian, Myfavoritmartin?