B
btdn
Guest
I was happier when I was a ‘liberal’.
Holy See approves new English translation of the Order of Mass - Plus, a bishop's pastoral concern
- Status
N
Neil_Anthony
Guest
Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but why don’t you like that version of Holy Holy Holy? When I heard that version, it makes me imagine the angels in heaven singing that song to God, because it’s so powerful. What’s so bad about it?
F
frommi
Guest
I will never understand why people find it necessary to slam those two guys mercilessly.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/archives/2005/06/haugenhaas.php
Curt Jester introduces Hagen-Hass Ice Cream
They’re songwriters, and while they’re work is subject to critical review, I dont know why it consistently has to get so personal.
Mr. Haas has spent a number of years working with youth to help them use their musical talents in church.
There is so much more to celebrate about these composers than denigrate.
However, I’ve learned that in these forums that being considerate towards others really only applies to people who want to chant in a low moderate ‘reverential’ tone.
I
ibkc
Guest
I have seen no personal attacks on Mr. Haugen or Mr. Haas in this thread or even on this forum. Some of us don’t care for their style of music and are sad that it has become so commonplace in Catholic churches in place of the music that developed as the Church’s own. It’s a valid opinion, and it doesn’t constitute a personal attack on these two men.
It is to the point where some Catholics seem openly hostile to their own heritage. I just don’t get it.
B
brigid12
Guest
E
ethelzguy
Guest
E
ethelzguy
Guest
Because their work doesn’t fit the elitist agenda of the traditionalist crowd.
K
Kendy
Guest
That’s about right!
W
Walking_Home
Guest
In the mind of the “Spirit of Vat II” .
K
Kendy
Guest
One doesn’t have to be hostile to tradition to accept the fact that there are diversity of expressions, many of which offer sincere worship to God. For example, I have been to Mass where they were Spirituals and I found it beautiful. I have been to Hispanic parish where there’s lively music with people passionately worship God. I grew up in Haiti, where liturgical dancers are common. Gregorian chant is part of our traditiona and it will always be, but I see no hope for Christian unity if people get all ruffled about such monor things. In fact, I can’t imagine a united church, which does not include Gospel music and Negro Spirituals. While that form is not part of Catholic tradition, it is important part of CHRISTIAN tradition, which does and should continue to have a place in our churches. It does not mean you have to enjoy (I don’t care for Gospel), but it should be respected as the voice through which many Christians, including Catholics worship God.
Kendy
K
Kendy
Guest
Well, the important to keep in mind is that traditionalist make a tiny portion of the Church IN THE WEST! There are far more pressing concerns than trying to kick out David Haas and the bishops realize that. And When you move to Asia, Africa, and Latin America, where MOST of the church lives, these issues are of no concern.Because their work doesn’t fit the elitist agenda of the traditionalist crowd.
Kendy
G
GIMJ
Guest
Is that supposed to be a bad thing?? I confess to loving the Second Vatican Council. As any good Catholic should, of course.
Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI have both done incredible work to implement the reforms of the Council, much of which we are only just beginning to see with Benedict. I’m excited to see what the future holds, because I have no doubt that the Church’s best days are still ahead, and that has much to do with Vatican II.
If you would criticize someone for affirming that ecumenical council, then you’re a dissident and a heretic, not a Catholic. You might consider yourself traditionalistic, but you’re no better off than the leftist factions you criticize.
So yes, in my mind, it must be miserable being a “traditionalist.”
B
benedictgal
Guest
Kendy, first of all, the tradition of worship comes from the Church. This tradition was handed down to us directly from Christ in the form of the Holy Sacrifice. Protestant ecclesial communities have a very different notion of worship. They have the Word, but, they do no have the Sacrifice. They have “communion”, but, they don’t believe that they are receiving Our Lord; for them, it’s only a symbol. Of course, even if they did believe, their “communion” is not valid because it was not confected by a validly ordained priest.
You seem to fall victim to the dictatorship of relativism that seems to think that everything is equal. It is not. The Church has her standard of liturgy. What the new translation is seeking to accomplish is to correct the mistakes made by translators who were caught up in the Spirit of Vatican II while neglecting to read what the documents actually said.
Marty Haugen is not Catholic. He took excessive liberties with the Mass of Creation, especially for both the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei. Yes, we are encouraged to be creative, but this creativity is not to be done at the sacrifice of the official texts of the Church. Composers are not called to paraphrase or add and subtract words to the text. OCP’s stable team, especially Bob Hurd and Christopher Walker are notorious for their paraphrasing of the prayers of the Mass. This is wrong.
As far as age is concerned, I woudl submit to you that the younger generation is more in tune with the Church’s tradition then those who are 50 or 30 years our seniors. Some of the folks of that particular generation were the ones who, in effect, threw the baby out with the bathwater and started dismantling things, even the Council documents maintained the call for continuity. A young Fr. Joseph Ratzinger saw that coming and was dismayed. The tearing down of the Mass and the horrid music were not genuine fruits of the Council. Now as Pope, he’s trying to clean up all of the mess left behind.
B
benedictgal
Guest
There is a HUGE difference between following the alleged Spirit of Vatican II and adhering to what the documents actually said. If you were to carefully read the documents, especially those on the Liturgy, you will find that half of what people claimed the Council said was never written into the documents.
Pope Benedict is offering us an authentic interpretation of what the documents said. It is the “spirit” of the Council we are fighting, not the legitimate interpretation as put forth by the Holy Father.
K
Kendy
Guest
K
Kendy
Guest
Jesus gave us gregorian chant?
There’s no need to make baseless accusation. There’s a difference between being a relativist and not being petty. I don’t want to allow issues like music to distract me, especially, from important task like unity.
If the bishops forbid these paraphrases, then we should all obey. That doesn’t mean that we cannot have a variety of musical expressions in the church.
I don’t know what theis refers to. I never said anything about age.
W
Walking_Home
Guest
Bingo benedictgal. —Some people have a misguided notion of Vat II and our late and current Pope’s efforts to correct the “Spirit of Vat II”. For those who are not familiar with Pope John Paul II’s Ecclesia de Eucharistia
adoremus.org/EcclesiaDeEucharistia.html#anchor566973
John Paul II
The Dignity of the Eucharistic Celebration
- All of this makes clear the great responsibility which belongs to priests in particular for the celebration of the Eucharist. It is their responsibility to preside at the Eucharist in persona Christi and to provide a witness to and a service of communion not only for the community directly taking part in the celebration, but also for the universal Church, which is a part of every Eucharist.** It must be lamented that, especially in the years following the post-conciliar liturgical reform, as a result of a misguided sense of creativity and adaptation there have been a number of abuses which have been a source of suffering for many. A certain reaction against “formalism” has led some, especially in certain regions, to consider the “forms” chosen by the Church’s great liturgical tradition and her Magisterium as non-binding and to introduce unauthorized innovations which are often completely inappropriate.**
I
ibkc
Guest
Sometimes I get the impression that some of my fellow posters on here imagine that any critique of this music means that we’re sitting there in the pews, huffing and spitting when a Haugen joint comes up, and storming out in protest if there’s no chant. May I let it be known that my regular parish uses OCP’s music and liturgical materials, and that I do manage to attend Mass every week, participating fully with a smile on face and a song in my heart, including singing what is required, and no one around me has any clue about my opinion of the quality of the music? Or that I have tendencies toward (gasp!) “traditionalism”?
I fail to see how expressing an opinion in a fairly anonymous fashion on a message board, especially one that can be supported by Church documents, is in any way “petty” or how it fosters disunity. On the contrary, I think most of us would like to see the quality of the music and liturgy raised to a consistently high level everywhere. That is a yearning for more unity, not less.
K
Kendy
Guest
I am glad to hear that you don’t strom out, but perhaps, you could go further and show respect. One of the parishes near my house has also the songs to Gospel sounds. It’s not my cup of tea but I didn’t make rude comments about vomiting.Sometimes I get the impression that some of my fellow posters on here imagine that any critique of this music means that we’re sitting there in the pews, huffing and spitting when a Haugen joint comes up, and storming out in protest if there’s no chant. May I let it be known that my regular parish uses OCP’s music and liturgical materials, and that I do manage to attend Mass every week, participating fully with a smile on face and a song in my heart, including singing what is required, and no one around me has any clue about my opinion of the quality of the music? Or that I have tendencies toward (gasp!) “traditionalism”?
I fail to see how expressing an opinion in a fairly anonymous fashion on a message board, especially one that can be supported by Church documents, is in any way “petty” or how it fosters disunity. On the contrary, I think most of us would like to see the quality of the music and liturgy raised to a consistently high level everywhere. That is a yearning for more unity, not less.
As for raising the music to a high level, perhaps, we can broaden that standard?
Kendy
I
ibkc
Guest
Here, I grabbed a definition of “respect” off of dictionary.com.
esteem for or a sense of the worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality or ability, or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality or ability
I “show respect” by being an obedient Catholic who has deep appreciation of the hard work that goes into running a parish. My feelings on the music chosen by our music director does not alter the fact that I am glad she is there doing the job, and that she is a very warm and nice person. My feelings about the OCP missal have no affect on my admiration and respect for our pastor. So I am at a loss here. If you would be kind enough to point out how this isn’t good enough, and where my respect is lacking in my interactions in my parish where this music is used on a regular basis, then I promise you I will change my ways.
But if by “show respect” you mean that you want me (and actually, everyone) to lie on this forum about my feelings for this music, in a forum devoted to discussion of music, liturgy and the like, I will not. If things are going to change, there must be discussion.
That was not my comment.
- Status