Holy Strippers?

[Lost_Wanderer]

I think it’s interesting all the philosophizing around sin, moral evil and physical evil comes down to this - no one knows, and it’ll all become clear in heaven

That’s not necessarily a complete picture of what the Church teaches. One thing that the Church teaches is personal responsibility over one’s actions. We have the right to choose between right and wrong.

With all due respect, every atheist I’ve encountered who ‘blames God’ or just questions why God allows evil also has the same naive belief that man is somehow all sweet and good.

Every time, they shun away from the idea of man’s capacity for evil.

But alas, evil is still the result of choice. It’s not your choice but it’s still human choice.

Aaaaaand that’s where things get complicated. We have billions of people living out their lives each day, each of them making more than a dozen decisions (both good and bad). The choices have consequences. These consequences overlap. In fact, a favorite comic book of mine actually describes fate as a ‘menagerie of cause and effect’. I doubt any single human being is capable of comprehending such a vast web.

God can though which is why it’s not wise to simplify the kind of decisions He makes.

Ever watched Bruce Almighty? There’s a scene that actually challenges the view of God constantly having to answer prayers with a yes.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

So to keep to the OP, the Church can declare the actions of the stripper objectively sinful, can tell her or him if they don’t repent they risk their soul, can even withold forgiveness if it considers it appropriate, but can’t explain why the all merciful, all loving, all caring, all kind, all good God they all believe in would allow the stripper to get into the situation in the first place, where, perhaps, she felt it was the only option open to her at that time to earn enough to feed herself and keep a roof over her head, due to a catalogue of disasters and misfortunes, none of her making, while this all caring, all loving, all kind personal God stood by and did nothing.

I’m sorry but you’re falling into the same simplification trap as the other guy. Read the posts about culpability. That factors in on how the Church would encourage repentance to someone in that situation or ‘withhold forgiveness’.

 

[atheistgirl]

One thing that the Church teaches is personal responsibility over one’s actions.

I’m with them on this, but also allowing for factors such as mental health issues and so on.

With all due respect, every atheist I’ve encountered who ‘blames God’ or just questions why God allows evil also has the same naive belief that man is somehow all sweet and good.

I think my posting record should make clear I don’t actually, in reality, blame God for anything. I also don’t think all mankind is all sweet and good.

Every time, they shun away from the idea of man’s capacity for evil.

I don’t. I’m well aware of it.

But alas, evil is still the result of choice. It’s not your choice but it’s still human choice.

Many choices are predictable, and many people have their paths set out before them due to the circumstances they came in to, unless they do something specific to break out of that.

I predicted a young girl I helped with something would be pregnant by the age of 15. She was 16 when she got pregnant. The Jesuits are famous for saying something along the lines of give me the boy, and I’ll give you the man.

We can of course break out of our circumstances, for good and bad, and many do.

Ever watched Bruce Almighty? There’s a scene that actually challenges the view of God constantly having to answer prayers with a yes.

Never watched it as I can’t stand Jim Carrey.

Sarah x

 

[NeedImprovement]

Don’t trivialize and oversimplify the situation of many women in countries like mine. . . . If anything the dire circumstances of poverty are not within your control but are still the result of complicated actions of corrupt individuals. . .

A little dose of reality helps.



And in countries due west of yours, real life cases still exist where women are kept prisoner/slaves and literally forced by corrupt individuals to become strippers - and more.

In this country , of the handful of strippers I’ve ever spoken with personally, all but one of them were in the situation compounded by the drug use which Ora Labora describes :

Around here many strippers have drug addiction issues and it’s well known that strip joints are also places to deal drugs.

A very ugly situation all around.

I tend to think of these poor women as victims rather than unholy. Christ forgave the adulteress. I’m sure he cries for these poor women.

They need help to get out of their vicious circle, not condemnation. We as a society should and can do better at helping these women out of their misery. I can’t imagine too many of them would stay in that hellhole of a lifestyle if they thought they had a choice.

. . . but even that particular one said she had to do it (be a stripper) to pay off an (unspecified) debt which she owed.

The drug trap, being personally coerced, - all of these factors ,must be taken into consideration in each individual case, because they contribute towards the mitigation of guilt . However the prerequisite questions which must be asked in the assessment are still - "Guilt for what ? What is it that is doing all the damage ? . . . Which act ? Who is committing it ? Who is it affecting ? "

There is an exceptionally compelling and tragic story about a young woman from this city who was stripping at the age of 16 , eventually went to LA lured by the lucre of the porn industry, but on her very first “scene”, contracted HIV from those she was “performing” with. Eventually, the sensationalist media dropped her story because it was getting old. She has subsequently also spent some time in a psychiatric ward trying to put some of the pieces of her life back together.

Although I objected to the wording of one section of a particular post. That same post I thought, has nicely summarized so far, pertaining to any kind of general judgment, where most of us actually stand, in that we

. . . have no clue where people come from, what they have gone through, or why they are doing what they do and under what constraints, their own and those of others.

. . . Something I believe which could surely apply in a lot of other areas too - apart from this subject.

Yet the necessity, the duty to define the moral guidelines in serious matters always remains for the Church. In such analyses , referring to a particular woman as an “object of lust” is perfectly fine , in that it traces the path logically back to the one at fault – that is, the one who “commits adultery in his/her heart” . It also says positively “who” is being objectified. And if Blessed John Paul II is fine using it so am I . If Father John Hardon S.J. says a person can be an occasion of sin , for similar analyses I’m fine with that too .

They didn’t bow to the god of political correctness (which is often based on false premises) , so, I don’t think I will either.

:dts:

 

[NeedImprovement]

**Occasions of Sin **Is defined as, “Any person, place or thing which allures a man to sin.” (Definition from A Catholic Dictionary, 1951). Another definition: “Occasions of Sin are external circumstances–whether of things or persons–which either because of their special nature or because of the frailty common to humanity or peculiar to some individual, incite or entice one to sin.” (Catholic Encyclopedia, 1917)

catholicessentials.net/occasionsofsin.htm

Sharing an article from the “Dear Padre” column.

Dear Padre,
What is an occasion of sin? My grandmother refuses to go to casinos. She says they’re “occasions of sin.” What is she talking about? ~ Robert

Dear Robert,
Occasions of sin are people, places, or situations that can easily lead a person to sin or give them an opportunity to commit a sin. There are two types: remote and proximate (also called near).

aquietmoment.wordpress.com/2009/09/08/what-is-an-occasion-of-sin/

CatholicCulture.org thinks highly enough of Fr. John Hardon’s definition of an occasion of sin to present it as the definition of occasion of sin :

OCCASION OF SIN
Any person, place, or thing that of its nature or because of human frailty can lead one to do wrong, thereby committing sin. If the danger is certain and probable, the occasion is proximate; if the danger is slight, the occasion becomes remote. It is voluntary if it can easily be avoided. There is no obligation to avoid a remote occasion unless there is probable danger of its becoming proximate. There is a positive obligation to avid a voluntary proximate occasion of sin even though the occasion of evildoing is due only to human weakness.

All items in this dictionary are from Fr. John Hardon’s Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life. Used with permission .

catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=35228

 

[PumpkinSeed]

And what of complete innocents who are cruelly murdered, for one example only? Terrible things in life can happen to the best and most beautiful morally and innocent of people.

That is beccause the murderer or the rapist has free will. God does not apporove of their actinos but he will NOT TAKE AWAY your free will…

In the case of the stripper, she has the free will to become one, but if she chooses not to, she is glorifying God and putting her faith in God.

Guys, please do not doubt what God can do for you in your time of need. Life is full of suffering, it helps us learn and makes us stronger. He wont make everything perfect, but he can help us.

I’m sorry for offending anybody. I just have a very strong faith in God that he will help me in my time of need.

If somebody is homeless I suggest they go to a church. They are very quick to try and help people. And if any of you needs help, contact me for prayer requests. I will pray for you until your situation is cleared.

God bless you all. :hug1:

 

[TiggerS]

That is beccause the murderer or the rapist has free will. God does not apporove of their actinos but he will NOT TAKE AWAY your free will…

In the case of the stripper, she has the free will to become one, but if she chooses not to, she is glorifying God and putting her faith in God.

Guys, please do not doubt what God can do for you in your time of need. Life is full of suffering, it helps us learn and makes us stronger. He wont make everything perfect, but he can help us.

I’m sorry for offending anybody. I just have a very strong faith in God that he will help me in my time of need.

If somebody is homeless I suggest they go to a church. They are very quick to try and help people. And if any of you needs help, contact me for prayer requests. I will pray for you until your situation is cleared.

God bless you all. :hug1:

This is absolutely wonderful and I thank God for you firm and trusting Faith, your generosity and kindness, and a great blessing and witness.

But do you really think that condemning another or others is the way to travel and the way of The Gospel?

 

[TiggerS]

In other words, the Catholic Church has no credible explanation as to why God permits physical and moral evil.

It’s all a mystery, that will be unveiled in the next life.

And that has to be taken on faith.

I think it’s interesting all the philosophizing around sin, moral evil and physical evil comes down to this - no one knows, and it’ll all become clear in heaven

Sarah x

Hello Sarah - You got it! We dont know why God permits physical and moral evil. But we can look to our Founder and Saviour, The Son of God, The Crucified One - and we know that it happens and that out of it comes good. Sometimes we can’t see that good, but we believe firmly that good will come out evil and in all instances. And yes, you’ve grasped another part of the message - seeds have begun to germinate - all will become clear to us in Heaven. Cacha there someday!

Tigger

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

In the case of the stripper, she has the free will to become one, but if she chooses not to, she is glorifying God and putting her faith in God.

Yes the stripper has free will… along with the bastard pimp who tricks her into his slavery. See this, is the result when you have more than billions of people of what is popularly known as the clash of wills.

Guys, please do not doubt what God can do for you in your time of need. Life is full of suffering, it helps us learn and makes us stronger. He wont make everything perfect, but he can help us.

Look I’ve had moments when God came to my aid too but it’s more complicated than you think. Again, what if God always said yes to every prayer? Do you really think that’s actually a good idea? Theology-wise, it’s not. A God that constantly interferes in that way rids the whole point of free will, the whole point of Catholic morality, and even the very point of salvation!

I’m sorry for offending anybody. I just have a very strong faith in God that he will help me in my time of need.

No offense, but I’ve seen this story before. It’s how the most religious people all of a sudden became atheist. Again, stop setting yourself up like this.

If somebody is homeless I suggest they go to a church. They are very quick to try and help people. And if any of you needs help, contact me for prayer requests. I will pray for you until your situation is cleared.

That’s nice but I’ve actually born witness to the limits of Church charity. It’s not enough. Our orphanages struggle (both secular and religious). Public education is an even bigger joke here than in the U.S.

The problem isn’t because we lack faith. It’s much worse… and much more complicated.

 

[TiggerS]

Yes the stripper has free will… along with the bastard pimp who tricks her into his slavery. See this, is the result when you have more than billions of people of what is popularly known as the clash of wills.

Look I’ve had moments when God came to my aid too but it’s more complicated than you think. Again, what if God always said yes to every prayer? Do you really think that’s actually a good idea? Theology-wise, it’s not. A God that constantly interferes in that way rids the whole point of free will, the whole point of Catholic morality, and even the very point of salvation!

No offense, but I’ve seen this story before. It’s how the most religious people all of a sudden became atheist. Again, stop setting yourself up like this.

That’s nice but I’ve actually born witness to the limits of Church charity. It’s not enough. Our orphanages struggle (both secular and religious). Public education is an even bigger joke here than in the U.S.

The problem isn’t because we lack faith. It’s much worse… and much more complicated.

Well said.
The world generally seems in a terrible state, not for the first time.
There isn’t much worse I think than not having Faith in God on our part. What is happening in our world in places takes intelligent insight into the problems in our world and followed up with intelligent action - with Faith in God. Intelligence is His gift. We don’t need discouragement in failure, nor a sense of despair, which is probably followed up by giving up. Wherever I am in the scheme of things including on the intelligence level, I may not be able to do much, but I still have my own part to play - and why I am who I am, and where I am in all things.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Also, out of charity, we should stop referring to/viewing strippers as “occasions of sin.” Doing so is just as dehumanizing and objectifying as the profession itself . . . Their ACTIONS are occasions of sins.

We are ALL sinners by our own flawed human nature. There is no need to point out and say “so and so is a sinner!” Because as human beings, we ALL are.

It’s like saying “so and so has a nose.” What’s the point?

The point (actually there are several points, but the one which this poster seems to continue to miss, repeatedly, one salient point ) is that saying a person is an “occasion of sin” is not necessarily the same as saying “so and so is a sinner”. Neither is referring to a person as an “occasion of sin” the same as saying a person is the “cause of sin”.

Conceding an argument wouldn’t bother me , if that argument were to be based on a solid premise – but the aforementioned isn’t . Rather, it attempts to modify the time-honoured definition of “occasion of sin” proposed by the Catholic Church . When we start modifying definitions , we kick the door wide open and lay out the welcome mat for the rationalization of truth.

So what is really being said ?

. . .
we should stop referring to/viewing strippers as “occasions of sin.”… .

followed by , logically –

I . . . would never refer to another person themselves as “occasions of sins.” . . .

So , according to these words , one must reject the Catholic definition of “occasion of sin” or at least modify that definition to fit something more whimsical.

Why ? . . . Because

. . . Doing so is just as dehumanizing and objectifying as the profession itself . . . Their ACTIONS are occasions of sins.

All the Catholic definitions of “occasion of sin” provided on this thread begin by saying an occasion of sin is either a “person, place or thing. . .” or “people , places or situations”.

So how can someone object to our definition, claiming it dehumanizes and objectifies, when the very essence of the definition includes “a person” ? The definition says an occasion of sin can also be a person – a human – not an object , and the objection is that the definition doesn’t refer to the “occasion of sin” as a person or as human.



Moreover , a claim that it is only a person’s ACTIONS which are an occasion of sin , separate from the person , mightn’t fare too well in analytical circles, since the actions are an extension of the person and the person is responsible for their actions. One has thus already admitted , (in their attempt to argue that a person is not an occasion of sin) that the person comprises at least part of the occasion of sin.

Hopefully it all simply stems from an erroneous comprehension of the meaning of “occasion of sin”. But it’s important to clear up these kind of misconceptions before they create larger problems.

 

[PRmerger]

Hello Sarah - You got it! We dont know why God permits physical and moral evil. But we can look to our Founder and Saviour, The Son of God, The Crucified One - and we know that it happens and that out of it comes good. Sometimes we can’t see that good, but we believe firmly that good will come out evil and in all instances. And yes, you’ve grasped another part of the message - seeds have begun to germinate - all will become clear to us in Heaven. Cacha there someday!

Tigger

Sarah has indicated in a recent discussion that she is good with the answer “we don’t know.”

Ok.

As an atheist, I have no problem with ‘‘I don’t know’’ as an answer

Sarah x

 

[Debora123]

The point (actually there are several points, but the one which this poster seems to continue to miss, repeatedly, one salient point ) is that saying a person is an “occasion of sin” is not necessarily the same as saying “so and so is a sinner”. Neither is referring to a person as an “occasion of sin” the same as saying a person is the “cause of sin”.

Conceding an argument wouldn’t bother me , if that argument were to be based on a solid premise – but the aforementioned isn’t . Rather, it attempts to modify the time-honoured definition of “occasion of sin” proposed by the Catholic Church . When we start modifying definitions , we kick the door wide open and lay out the welcome mat for the rationalization of truth.

So what is really being said ?

followed by , logically –

So , according to these words , one must reject the Catholic definition of “occasion of sin” or at least modify that definition to fit something more whimsical.

Why ? . . . Because

All the Catholic definitions of “occasion of sin” provided on this thread begin by saying an occasion of sin is either a “person, place or thing. . .” or “people , places or situations”.

So how can someone object to our definition, claiming it dehumanizes and objectifies, when the very essence of the definition includes “a person” ? The definition says an occasion of sin can also be a person – a human – not an object , and the objection is that the definition doesn’t refer to the “occasion of sin” as a person or as human.



Moreover , a claim that it is only a person’s ACTIONS which are an occasion of sin , separate from the person , mightn’t fare too well in analytical circles, since the actions are an extension of the person and the person is responsible for their actions. One has thus already admitted , (in their attempt to argue that a person is not an occasion of sin) that the person comprises at least part of the occasion of sin.

Hopefully it all simply stems from an erroneous comprehension of the meaning of “occasion of sin”. But it’s important to clear up these kind of misconceptions before they create larger problems.

You can call those people what you want, and I’ll call them what I want.

You won’t convince me that calling them “occasions of sin” is good. Sorry.

 

[Debora123]

Yes the stripper has free will… along with the bastard pimp who tricks her into his slavery. See this, is the result when you have more than billions of people of what is popularly known as the clash of wills.

Look I’ve had moments when God came to my aid too but it’s more complicated than you think. Again, what if God always said yes to every prayer? Do you really think that’s actually a good idea? Theology-wise, it’s not. A God that constantly interferes in that way rids the whole point of free will, the whole point of Catholic morality, and even the very point of salvation!

No offense, but I’ve seen this story before. It’s how the most religious people all of a sudden became atheist. Again, stop setting yourself up like this.

That’s nice but I’ve actually born witness to the limits of Church charity. It’s not enough. Our orphanages struggle (both secular and religious). Public education is an even bigger joke here than in the U.S.

The problem isn’t because we lack faith. It’s much worse… and much more complicated.

Thanks for the wise post, and you are absolutely correct.

Not that faith/prayers aren’t extremely important, but the mentality that God will always provide and quickly “solve” any problem you may have is kind of naive. I would advice people with this thinking to take a trip down to a 3rd world country, or perhaps go witness the children in Africa who literally die of starvation every single day. Sure, they need prayers. But it’s not that simple.

 

[CopticChristian]

You do realize, Gaber, that being “created in the image of God” is a religious tenet, yes?

It is only because Judeo-Christianity has proclaimed this religious tenet that you know this. No other religion had the temerity to proclaim such a blasphemous concept until God chose to reveal this to the Jews.

So when you dismiss religious dogma in favor of a, well, religious dogma, that seems inconsistent to me.

Merger,

Spend some time reading all of Gaber’s past posts. Gaber is in favor of homosexuality and same sex marriage. When asked what “Ronin” meant as Catholic…the question was avoided. Gaber has “Catholic” in the designation and your frustration is born out of the fact that Gaber’s point of view is skewed and not in line with the magesterium. Gaber, in my opinion has no point of view that is consistent with the OHCAC.

 

[He_Man]

Merger,

Spend some time reading all of Gaber’s past posts. Gaber is in favor of homosexuality and same sex marriage. When asked what “Ronin” meant as Catholic…the question was avoided. Gaber has “Catholic” in the designation and your frustration is born out of the fact that Gaber’s point of view is skewed and not in line with the magesterium. Gaber, in my opinion has no point of view that is consistent with the OHCAC.

Yeah, just ignore him. They pop up now and then, but to debate Catholic teaching on something that isn’t up for debate is a waste of time.

Ask him about his favorite TV show or something actually worthy of a discussion.

Arguing about clear Catholic teaching is like arguing whether water is wet - collossal waste of time.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’ve had this discussion many times with people and yes…I’m going there but not to disturb you but because I’m quite a curious cat. Could strippers be holy? Many times people would tell me ‘striping is immoral’ or ‘its the work of the devil’ and so forth. So yes my fellow people of earth, is a stripper considered immoral? And if so how?

Tobey,

I recall your identifying as Lesbian Gay something or other in a post as the designation for LeGato…and your point of view may be different. Regardless of your point of view, there are some things that don’t make sense.

Could strippers be holy. This means that strippers know what holy is or you identify a person as being holy. It would be difficult to answer. How would someone know if a stripper is holy? I talked to one that was not stripping at a gathering and determined they had elements of holiness? I saw a stripper at work and determined they were holy? This implies that you, the observer, has a notion of holiness and determine that holiness or not.

Is stripping immoral. All acts, all behaviors have meanings that are attached after the fact. They are at first neutral. Family, Culture, experience define the meaning of the act. In other words the decision to strip, stripping are acts. If they are determined by that person to be normal, natural, ethical, moral acts then for that person it is not immoral. When that person through time, experience, question, whatever determines that it is not normal, not natural, not ethical, not moral…then for that person it becomes immoral.

Do I and other Catholic Christians, Eastern Orthodox Christians and most Protestant Christians believe stripping is immoral? The answer is most probably yes. This is in accord with what those that accept and believe that it is immoral before the act. Whether someone is immoral doing that act is determined by the above.

 

[atheistgirl]

Sarah has indicated in a recent discussion that she is good with the answer “we don’t know.”

That was in relation to YOUR specific answer of ‘‘I don’t know’’ to a question I asked that YOU replied to.

Kindly don’t extrapolate my answer to YOU out to every poster here, and kindly don’t reply for me again, as I do not need your assistance in answering or responding to posts.

I have my own voice, thanks.

Sarah x

 

[Blacksword]

In other words, the Catholic Church has no credible explanation as to why God permits physical and moral evil.

It’s all a mystery, that will be unveiled in the next life.

And that has to be taken on faith.

I think it’s interesting all the philosophizing around sin, moral evil and physical evil comes down to this - no one knows, and it’ll all become clear in heaven

Sarah x

I think the quote from the Catechism here is not the whole picture on the Catholic understanding of evil by a long shot. Although this is off-topic, many Catholic philosophers and theologians have addressed the subject in far better fashion than “we don’t know”. It boils down to free will. If you, I, and everyone else can’t freely choose to help or harm others, to do kindness or evil, we are not free at all. You can’t have free will without having some choose evil…and the things we migh call “physical evil” such as natural death (the big one), earthquakes and such, are not necessarily evil at all. God permits us to do evil because our freedom inherently requires it.

 

[atheistgirl]

.and the things we migh call “physical evil” such as natural death (the big one), earthquakes and such, are not necessarily evil at all.

I agree that earthquakes, tsunamis and so on are not evil in and of themselves. They are what they are, just physical events, and we understand why they happen. It’s all part of living on a watery rock floating about in space.

God permits us to do evil because our freedom inherently requires it.

Again I have no problem understanding that we do bad things from time to time. I understand it in various contexts, none of which includes ‘‘permission’’ from a Deity to be like so.

If I did believe in a God, I would have issues understanding why He feels the free will of a psychopathic rapist and murderer to do as he wants, is more important than the suffering he will inflict on his 8 year old victim, and their family, for generations to come.

More so when I remember this is a personal, loving God, who apparently has every hair on our head counted. Makes no sense to me.

People pray to be safe, but they’re not. People pray to be kept from harm, but they’re not. Yet this personal loving God also answers prayers. In His own way of course and beyond our understanding

Sarah x