Holy Strippers?

[TiggerS]

Muddling around in the quicksand! :

Just my own limited opinion, but I wonder if why some disagree so adamantly about certain terminology particular to this thread might be because they believe that saying someone is an “occasion of sin” is the same as saying someone is the “cause of sin” ? Of course, they aren’t the same thing. That’s why my focus has been on the sin originating in the person who goes to see the stripper - not the stripper. And it does appear to fall in line with what that same Catholic Encyclopedia article has to offer next:

Possible a form of denial - sort of “the devil made me do it” type of situation. I do not admit my own guilt rather project it elsewhere, attempt to deflect it from myself.
A potential situation: If I suddenly become aware that I am in an “occasion of sin” and being tempted to sin and later do so. Then the guilt is still mine. I have given in to temptation when The Church teaches us that God always grants sufficient Grace to overcome temptation.
Whether persons involved in that situation that became an “occasion of sin” for me have any guilt is an entirely different matter. Even if they have guilt, I still succumbed to temptation when we are never tempted beyond our means (Grace) to resist temptation.

Certainly, I now have a moral obligation to avoid that “occasion of sin” if possible in the future. And it becomes a moral wrong in itself to enter into that “occasion of sin” again if I am able to avoid doing so. If I am not able to avoid doing so for some reason, then I need spiritual advice if I find myself unable to make my own decision.

“Forced” and “tempted” are two different moral matters. My mother used to say : No such thing as “must” or “have to”. Down the line, I realized that she was quite correct. In every situation in life, we have a choice. If our freedom of choice, to make a choice freely, is affected by exterior or interior force of some kind, then moral culpability is lessened or may be absent altogether. The CCC sets this out for us.

Minefield - quicksand - drowning!

 

[Gaber]

Here’s my response to that:

elisakreisinger.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/eyeroll.gif

Disclaimer: I rarely use sarcasm, for I believe it is the protest of the weak, but sometimes a post is just begging for a sarcastic response:

So Jesus’ passion, death and resurrection was just a little blip in the history of God. One can believe it. One can reject it. No matter. God is just happy that you’re you.

Sheesh.

No, not at all. It just doesn’t mean to me any more what we were taught it means. Sarcasm is pretty much expected in this case. For you there is an absolute mental 1/1 correspondence between that story and Truth as you think it is. I see it as an unopened present being taken as the wrapping having all the value. Why would you not react? Who is reacting?

 

[PumpkinSeed]

The occupation of stripping? no. An individual woman? possibly.

We know, of course, that the means don’t justify the ends, but a lot of well meaning people aren’t aware of this piece of truth. So, a mother,perhaps,who is this close to being on the streets, might not be completely guilty of inciting lust if she honestly believes this is THE only resort. We know such an occupation is a grave concern in and of itself, but her desperation and love for her family may well tone down her culpability.

Id rather be on the streets or at a homeless shelter than selling my soul to the devil.

God helps us in time of need. If I said, forget you God, I’m going to disobey you and shame myself and cause others lustful sin by becoming a stripper because I need money. Do you think God would help you? No.

But if you said, stripping is the only option but I wont do it because I love you, God and I trust that you will protect and help me and give me a place to stay or something to eat. Do you think God would help you? Yes.

Show respect to him, and he shows it back. Always keep your faith tight and do not doubt what the Lord can do for you. Sometimes you feel like you’re living in darkness but if you seek him you will get light.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

But if you said, stripping is the only option but I wont do it because I love you, God and I trust that you will protect and help me and give me a place to stay or something to eat. Do you think God would help you? Yes.

Statements like this dangerously set believers up for an atheist chow down. Don’t trivialize and oversimplify the situation of many women in countries like mine. Do you really think that if God answered all prayers like that, there would be a single stripper in existence? I don’t think so. If anything the dire circumstances of poverty are not within your control but are still the result of complicated actions of corrupt individuals. I would think that some miracle would inadvertently do more harm than good because it would be God enforcing His will on another individual (no matter how vile they are). Another danger presented by beliefs like yours is that makes it look like God relishes in the suffering of His children who try to please Him.

 

[TiggerS]

Id rather be on the streets or at a homeless shelter than selling my soul to the devil.

God helps us in time of need. If I said, forget you God, I’m going to disobey you and shame myself and cause others lustful sin by becoming a stripper because I need money. Do you think God would help you? No.

But if you said, stripping is the only option but I wont do it because I love you, God and I trust that you will protect and help me and give me a place to stay or something to eat. Do you think God would help you? Yes.

Show respect to him, and he shows it back. Always keep your faith tight and do not doubt what the Lord can do for you. Sometimes you feel like you’re living in darkness but if you seek him you will get light.

And what of complete innocents who are cruelly murdered, for one example only? Terrible things in life can happen to the best and most beautiful morally and innocent of people. Look at what Jesus suffered in His Death and a type of death that is noted as the most barbaric form of execution. Look at what our martyrs suffered. Moral evil exists in our world and we have no guarantee at all of physical protection from whatever it may bring about. We have no guarantees of protection from suffering on the human level in this life. None. The Cross is our symbol and not for nothing.

What makes my sin less wrongful or less sinful, less shameful, than that of another? I truly do not know except that God has possibly put me in circumstances that might be easier to live with morally than that of another. My financial situation may be better. Some have appalling moral circumstances and dire poverty to deal with every single day of their lives and sometimes from birth onwards. “To whom more is given more is expected”(Luke Ch 12) God will expect more from some than of others.
Look at what Jesus said to those who had actually caught a woman in the actual act of adultery and were about to stone her to death as the law then ordered : “Let the one among you who is without sin cast the first stone” They all went away. Then Jesus turns to the woman and says “Go your way and sin no more”. Can I honestly say that I am going my way and giving up sin completely and totally and for all time? No way, wish that I could. I am a sinner and after one Confession to the next. Thank Jesus for the gift of the Sacrament of Reconciliation of which I am in dire need regularly. I am desperately in need of the Loving Mercy of The Lord and despite my resolutions and efforts…there I go again! St Paul said “Why is it that I find myself doing the very things that I have made up my mind not to do?” ah well, I’m in excellent company. Our priests and religious, cardinals and bishops go to Confession, as does The Holy Father. We are sinners.

Luke Chapter 13 "[1] And there were present, at that very time, some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. [2] And he answering, said to them: Think you that these Galileans were sinners above all the men of Galilee, because they suffered such things?
[3] No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

[4] Or those eighteen upon whom the tower fell in Siloe, and slew them: think you, that they also were debtors above all the men that dwelt in Jerusalem? [5] No, I say to you; but except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish. ’

Suffering in life is a great mystery. The Catholic Catechism states this about the evil in our world of which suffering of any kind at all is one:

Catholic Catecism:
**324 **The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

 

[Gaber]

Statements like this dangerously set believers up for an atheist chow down. Don’t trivialize and oversimplify the situation of many women in countries like mine. Do you really think that if God answered all prayers like that, there would be a single stripper in existence? I don’t think so. If anything the dire circumstances of poverty are not within your control but are still the result of complicated actions of corrupt individuals. I would think that some miracle would inadvertently do more harm than good because it would be God enforcing His will on another individual (no matter how vile they are). Another danger presented by beliefs like yours is that makes it look like God relishes in the suffering of His children who try to please Him.

That is well said.

Though I have met the occasional call girl who was very careful and very happy, they claimed, with what they were doing as a choice, the great majority of sex workers I’ve met in the sex trade usually have jobs there for two reasons: utter poverty and desperation to feed themselves and possibly their family, and, in some cases, there simply not being any other way for a woman lacking other skills to make such comparatively fabulous money. And of course that has more than just its moral dangers. That is not the healthiest culture to be in, by any means, and in the case of the deeply impoverished, especially in a third world country or circumstance, it amounts to slavery. There are documentaries that one can view to get some clearer understanding of this, if they have the stomach.

And that situation is a two way street. There are no victims without predators, and the sociopathic mind set that perpetrates that dynamic as a business is as well of grave concern, And the nature of the customers is needful of deep questioning as well. But the law, civil or moral, is a blunt tool for the purpose. The usual mistaken responses to sex work and customers stem from two misconceptions. First, that the sexualisation of society can be regulated. And second, that the law alone can change people’s sexual behaviour. In both cases, history suggests otherwise.

One tactic that has worked to a degree, at least in terms of sex slavery is to cut off advertising. That has been applied to, eg, Craigslist, some newspapers in London, and perhaps in some other places. It is a hard and useful blow to that trade. You can’t go to someone, or someplace, you don’t know about, word of mouth not withstanding given it;s comparative slowness in dissemination compared to the internet.

Interestingly, we can see examples of the failure of efforts to outright stop such things as different from more subtle approaches. This very weird thing happened to me: I lived for a long while in Arizona. I liked to watch the news. I’d just got a job in Connecticut through a friend and was packing to move there. On the news that night was an bit about the fury a Catholic Pastor had unleashed on a nude dance club across the street from the Church. The problem, aside from the very presence of the club across the street, was that its patrons were using the church parking lot while at the place. Hence a law suite, etc. But I was hearing about it 11 states and about 1500 miles away. Energetic Pastor, eh?

So, when I get to CT, and am looking for ways to avoid I-95, the most heavily used interstate in the Nation at that point, I happen through that little town and by that very church on my way home one afternoon. I laughed pretty hard, for two reasons: a) what are the chances, and b) the rows of cars around the place had a very high proportion of out-of-state plates, some even from Ohio and others equidistant. I had a mind that evening to write a letter to the club owner that he ought to pay a tithe to the Pastor for the obvious increase in traffic due to the free advertising. That part about the out-of-state increase was soon on the news as well, lol!

So that was a material lesson about wheat and chaff. And a bit of unfortunate comedy as a sincere and rightful plan backfired. But it told me that the obvious full frontal approach that people often take in these matters may not always be the most productive.

 

[TiggerS]

That is well said.

Though I have met the occasional call girl who was very careful and very happy, they claimed, with what they were doing as a choice, the great majority of sex workers I’ve met in the sex trade usually have jobs there for two reasons: utter poverty and desperation to feed themselves and possibly their family, and, in some cases, there simply not being any other way for a woman lacking other skills to make such comparatively fabulous money. And of course that has more than just its moral dangers. That is not the healthiest culture to be in, by any means, and in the case of the deeply impoverished, especially in a third world country or circumstance, it amounts to slavery. There are documentaries that one can view to get some clearer understanding of this, if they have the stomach.

And that situation is a two way street. There are no victims without predators, and the sociopathic mind set that perpetrates that dynamic as a business is as well of grave concern, And the nature of the customers is needful of deep questioning as well. But the law, civil or moral, is a blunt tool for the purpose. The usual mistaken responses to sex work and customers stem from two misconceptions. First, that the sexualisation of society can be regulated. And second, that the law alone can change people’s sexual behaviour. In both cases, history suggests otherwise.

One tactic that has worked to a degree, at least in terms of sex slavery is to cut off advertising. That has been applied to, eg, Craigslist, some newspapers in London, and perhaps in some other places. It is a hard and useful blow to that trade. You can’t go to someone, or someplace, you don’t know about, word of mouth not withstanding given it;s comparative slowness in dissemination compared to the internet.

Interestingly, we can see examples of the failure of efforts to outright stop such things as different from more subtle approaches. This very weird thing happened to me: I lived for a long while in Arizona. I liked to watch the news. I’d just got a job in Connecticut through a friend and was packing to move there. On the news that night was an bit about the fury a Catholic Pastor had unleashed on a nude dance club across the street from the Church. The problem, aside from the very presence of the club across the street, was that its patrons were using the church parking lot while at the place. Hence a law suite, etc. But I was hearing about it 11 states and about 1500 miles away. Energetic Pastor, eh?

So, when I get to CT, and am looking for ways to avoid I-95, the most heavily used interstate in the Nation at that point, I happen through that little town and by that very church on my way home one afternoon. I laughed pretty hard, for two reasons: a) what are the chances, and b) the rows of cars around the place had a very high proportion of out-of-state plates, some even from Ohio and others equidistant. I had a mind that evening to write a letter to the club owner that he ought to pay a tithe to the Pastor for the obvious increase in traffic due to the free advertising. That part about the out-of-state increase was soon on the news as well, lol!

So that was a material lesson about wheat and chaff. And a bit of unfortunate comedy as a sincere and rightful plan backfired. But it told me that the obvious full frontal approach that people often take in these matters may not always be the most productive.

And well said as well.
…rather reminds me of Dan Browne and the “Da Vinci Code” and all the free advertising we gave his novel.

 

[PRmerger]

No, not at all. It just doesn’t mean to me any more what we were taught it means.

What do you think it means then?

 

[PRmerger]

Statements like this dangerously set believers up for an atheist chow down.

Love the way you put things, LW! That ^^ was funny.

 

[PRmerger]

That is well said.

Though I have met the occasional call girl who was very careful and very happy, they claimed, with what they were doing as a choice, the great majority of sex workers I’ve met in the sex trade usually have jobs there for two reasons: utter poverty and desperation to feed themselves and possibly their family, and, in some cases, there simply not being any other way for a woman lacking other skills to make such comparatively fabulous money. And of course that has more than just its moral dangers. That is not the healthiest culture to be in, by any means, and in the case of the deeply impoverished, especially in a third world country or circumstance, it amounts to slavery. There are documentaries that one can view to get some clearer understanding of this, if they have the stomach.

And that situation is a two way street. There are no victims without predators, and the sociopathic mind set that perpetrates that dynamic as a business is as well of grave concern, And the nature of the customers is needful of deep questioning as well. But the law, civil or moral, is a blunt tool for the purpose. The usual mistaken responses to sex work and customers stem from two misconceptions. First, that the sexualisation of society can be regulated. And second, that the law alone can change people’s sexual behaviour. In both cases, history suggests otherwise.

One tactic that has worked to a degree, at least in terms of sex slavery is to cut off advertising. That has been applied to, eg, Craigslist, some newspapers in London, and perhaps in some other places. It is a hard and useful blow to that trade. You can’t go to someone, or someplace, you don’t know about, word of mouth not withstanding given it;s comparative slowness in dissemination compared to the internet.

Interestingly, we can see examples of the failure of efforts to outright stop such things as different from more subtle approaches. This very weird thing happened to me: I lived for a long while in Arizona. I liked to watch the news. I’d just got a job in Connecticut through a friend and was packing to move there. On the news that night was an bit about the fury a Catholic Pastor had unleashed on a nude dance club across the street from the Church. The problem, aside from the very presence of the club across the street, was that its patrons were using the church parking lot while at the place. Hence a law suite, etc. But I was hearing about it 11 states and about 1500 miles away. Energetic Pastor, eh?

So, when I get to CT, and am looking for ways to avoid I-95, the most heavily used interstate in the Nation at that point, I happen through that little town and by that very church on my way home one afternoon. I laughed pretty hard, for two reasons: a) what are the chances, and b) the rows of cars around the place had a very high proportion of out-of-state plates, some even from Ohio and others equidistant. I had a mind that evening to write a letter to the club owner that he ought to pay a tithe to the Pastor for the obvious increase in traffic due to the free advertising. That part about the out-of-state increase was soon on the news as well, lol!

So that was a material lesson about wheat and chaff. And a bit of unfortunate comedy as a sincere and rightful plan backfired. But it told me that the obvious full frontal approach that people often take in these matters may not always be the most productive.

 

[atheistgirl]

God helps us in time of need.

I see no evidence for this.

None what so ever.

The school children and young adults I do some work with come from very difficult and impoverished backgorunds.

They are also very religious and church going.

Despite the poverty in their community, the church is thriving and the pastor lives a very good life, disconnected from the circumstances of his flock. How? They all tithe, even from the little they have, and they are all superstitious that if they don’t bad things will happen to them. Yeah, like some of their lives could be any worse for keeping that few bucks back

Their psychological processes are fascinating to watch. They actually dance with joy when the pastor rolls up in his new $150,000 car, with driver, because it’s evidence ‘‘God’’ is blessing him, and he’s their pastor Yet at the same time, they can’t put food on their table or new shoes on their kids feet They just don’t see the disconnect.

That particular church is not involved in any of the programs we are involved in.

We’re the ones providing training, introductions to employment, jobs, food, seminars, community projects, and much more, not that church.

Yet these kids parents will give that Pastor their last $20 every week, don’t contribute a dime to any of the community projects (and we don’t expect them to) while their kids need new shoes

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

Suffering in life is a great mystery. The Catholic Catechism states this about the evil in our world of which suffering of any kind at all is one:

Catholic Catecism:
324 The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is **a mystery **that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

In other words, the Catholic Church has no credible explanation as to why God permits physical and moral evil.

It’s all a mystery, that will be unveiled in the next life.

And that has to be taken on faith.

I think it’s interesting all the philosophizing around sin, moral evil and physical evil comes down to this - no one knows, and it’ll all become clear in heaven

Sarah x

 

[Gaber]

In other words, the Catholic Church has no credible explanation as to why God permits physical and moral evil.

It’s all a mystery, that will be unveiled in the next life.

And that has to be taken on faith.

I think it’s interesting all the philosophizing around sin, moral evil and physical evil comes down to this - no one knows, and it’ll all become clear in heaven

Sarah x

Kinda the case, huh.

 

[GWright]

I see no evidence for this.

Im not surprised.

As you state you are an atheist, then you obviously do not believe in God.

If you do not believe in God, then you would never have sincerely asked Him for help.

If you dont ask, you dont get - so I am not surprised you dont see any evidence.

Its like me defining myself as a non-french speaker, then announcing I cant speak french, as though that is some kind of revelation!

 

[PRmerger]

In other words, the Catholic Church has no credible explanation as to why God permits physical and moral evil.

Only in the same way that your 4 year old daughter wouldn’t find any explanation you offer as to why you are holding her down to receive 4 immunizations.

You could explain it to her, but she would only respond, (if she’s bratty): “But you’re a Big Meanie! You hate me!”

 

[atheistgirl]

Kinda the case, huh.

I guess.

But it seems very inadequate somehow.

I could never move from a position of knowing and understanding why things happen, based on perfectly reasonable predictors such as the environement, homelife, social make up and political, educational, financial, and employment elements (to name a few), to a position of ‘‘God only knows’’ and all will be revealed when we die

Sarah x

 

[GWright]

In other words, the Catholic Church has no credible explanation as to why God permits physical and moral evil.

An atheist criticising the Catholic Church for admitting it doesnt know everything?

I feel faint.

 

[GWright]

I guess.

But it seems very inadequate somehow.

So why is your explanation as to why evil and suffering exist, and why is this “better” or more adequate?

I could never move from a position of knowing and understanding why things happen, based on perfectly reasonable predictors such as the environement, homelife, social make up and political, educational, financial, and employment elements

Are you claiming that you know and understand why everything happens?

A friend of my fiancee died of an aggressive cancer aged only 29.

Which of your predictors above - politics, education, finance etc - explain why a healthy young women, a specific individual, a non-smoker, contracted cancer and died?

I would venture that none of them do.

 

[atheistgirl]

As you state you are an atheist, then you obviously do not believe in God.

I do not think there is sufficient evidence to state a Deity exists.

If you do not believe in God, then you would never have sincerely asked Him for help.

Correct.

If you dont ask, you dont get - so I am not surprised you dont see any evidence.

There’s nothing stopping God revealing Himself to me is there

He did with Saul, and many of the Saints I’ve been reading about.

It’s also the contention of several people here that the good an Atheist does is done through God

So if God has no problem using an atheist to do good, without her sayso, He should have no problem revealing Himself to her.

He choses not to

In the meantime, lots of great atheists, secularists, humanists, and indeed many of a religious persuasion, not just Christian, are getting on with doing practical, measurable, life changing things that make a real difference here on the ground.

If a ‘‘God’’ gets the credit in the mind of some for the last round of funding we provided for an education project, c’est la vie

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

An atheist criticising the Catholic Church for admitting it doesnt know everything?

I feel faint.

Why?

Any church, not just the Catholic Church, that claims to know the will of God, claims to know the objective truths of right and wrong, claims to define what is and isn’t a sin and the conditions that God requires for a sin to be committed, claims to possess the one and only true route to Salvation (while not denying other routes exist), claims to have the authority to forgive sin and claims to declare who is in heaven (making people Saints), should, I think, be also able to explain why God allows physical and moral evil to exist, rather than just saying oh well, that’s a mystery.

So to keep to the OP, the Church can declare the actions of the stripper objectively sinful, can tell her or him if they don’t repent they risk their soul, can even withold forgiveness if it considers it appropriate, but can’t explain why the all merciful, all loving, all caring, all kind, all good God they all believe in would allow the stripper to get into the situation in the first place, where, perhaps, she felt it was the only option open to her at that time to earn enough to feed herself and keep a roof over her head, due to a catalogue of disasters and misfortunes, none of her making, while this all caring, all loving, all kind personal God stood by and did nothing.

While vilifying the sin, and ‘‘loving’’ the sinner, the best these Churches can do to explain the absense of this personal loving God, is call it a ‘‘mystery’’.



Sarah x