Holy Strippers?

[atheistgirl]

Those civil authorities had free will too.

Nope. They uphold the law. Said rapist can’t say to the cops arresting him, hey, I’m really sorry, and they let him off on his merry way.

What makes you think God is some genie subject to your or anyone’s will? God can choose too you know.

I don’t think there’s enough evidence for the existence of any such Deity, so I don’t think God is some genie subject to my will.

But for the purpose of discussion, I see what this God says. Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you, ask in my name and you will receive. All the hairs on our heads are counted, and why stress or worry because if God will look after the birds in the field, how much more will He look after people.

When I look around this world, I don’t see any evidence for this at all.

Furthermore, as a being far more capable of seeing the bigger picture than both you, me, and all the human race combined, I’d give Him more credit as a decision-maker.

I’d agree if it were evident prayers were answered. But there’s no evidence for this at all.

I hate to break it to you but your examples don’t really have a point.

Perhaps not to you. But to me, they do.

Sarah x

 

[PRmerger]

But for the purpose of discussion, I see what this God says. Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you, ask in my name and you will receive. All the hairs on our heads are counted, and why stress or worry because if God will look after the birds in the field, how much more will He look after people.

When I look around this world, I don’t see any evidence for this at all.

Oh, how I relish when I can quote Harry Potter on this forum!

Originally posted in Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban:

“How come the Muggles don’t hear the bus?” said Harry.

“Them!” said Stan contemptuously. “Don’ listen properly, do they? Don’ look properly either. Never notice nuffink, they don’.”

'nuff said!

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Nope. They uphold the law. Said rapist can’t say to the cops arresting him, hey, I’m really sorry, and they let him off on his merry way.

That’s their decision as well.

But for the purpose of discussion, I see what this God says. Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you, ask in my name and you will receive. All the hairs on our heads are counted, and why stress or worry because if God will look after the birds in the field, how much more will He look after people.

When I look around this world, I don’t see any evidence for this at all.

This is completely flawed and contradictory. You base this statement on the count that you don’t believe in God is a genie but only because you don’t believe in God at all. Following this, you then proceed to tell me that you don’t believe in Him simply because He claims to be some big daddy genie?

Your Bible quoting is incomplete, just like your counterparts on the other end who read these same verses. You both ignore passages like “though shalt not put the Lord to the test”.

I’d agree if it were evident prayers were answered. But there’s no evidence for this at all.

Perhaps not to you. But to me, they do.

You realize this is the same argument I’ve heard from people of too much faith and not enough logic?

So people find their car keys instead of a girl. That’s your experience. My experience is my boss had a car wheel damaged by a shooting. All the while, she was up there in the nearby building with me and the rest of our marketing team.

So, why was she spared and not her car wheel?

Unlike you though, I don’t see the value of really answering such questions when the answer is obvious. Furthermore, I don’t apply my experience to the whole of humanity, the whole of reality, and much less the Nature of God.

Again: Life is simply too complicated.

 

[atheistgirl]

That’s their decision as well.

Sure.

Following this, you then proceed to tell me that you don’t believe in Him simply because He claims to be some big daddy genie?

I’ve never once refered to God as a genie. It’s you that keeps doing that.

You’re Bible quoting is incomplete, just like your counterparts on the other end who read these same verses. You both ignore passages like “though shalt not put the Lord to the test”.

Are the phrases wrong. Did Jesus say these things or not?

You realize this is the same argument I’ve heard from people of too much faith and not enough logic?

I don’t know who you listen to, so no, why would I?

So people find their car keys instead of a girl. That’s your experience.

Yes it is, and I find it very incomfortable, that, were it true, God listens to and answers the prayers of a driver running late looking for a lost item, but ignores the pleas of the world, including the Pope, to return a little innocent girl to her family.

When it comes to the issued of proclaimed answered prayers, yes, I do have a problem with that. I’m glad for you that you don’t, and your faith allows you to see something I don’t. But for me, that is seriously wrong-headed, and it will never be otherwise.

Furthermore, I don’t apply my experience to the whole of humanity, the whole of reality, and much less the Nature of God.

You have your faith, and that’s great for you. For me, looking in, I’m aware of the global response to Madeleine McCann. I’m aware she is a Catholic from a strong practicing Catholic family. I’m aware of the whole world, including the Pope, praying for her safe return.

After 5 years, I see nothing happening in response to these prayers.

You see something in this scenario that I don’t. Great. But to me, yes it is quite simple, and I find it very uncomfortable that I see people waving their hands in the air and shouting with joy that Jesus answered their prayers to find their keys, move house, get a job, win some money, all pretty variable odds wise, yet with something very cut and dry - return the little innocent girl alive and well to her family - after 5 years, nothing.

Life is simply too complicated.

To an all loving, all caring, all kind, all good personal loving God, it shouldn’t be.

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

'nuff said!

Yeah.

Equating quoting the Bible with quoting Harry Potter.

'Nuff said.

Sarah x

 

[PRmerger]

Yeah.

Equating quoting the Bible with quoting Harry Potter.

'Nuff said.

Sarah x

Firstly, even if I were equating quoting the Bible with quoting Harry Potter, so what?

When one makes an analogy one is not saying the 2 analogs are the same.

Take this example, Sarah:

Christmas tree : ornament :: Earlobe : earring.

Now, one can say, “How dare you compare a Christmas tree to an earlobe!” but that would demonstrate an impoverished understanding of analogies, don’t you think?

No one is saying that a Christmas tree IS an earlobe in the above analogy, or even equating them as alike in anything except analogs. :whacky:

Secondly, I wasn’t equating quoting the Bible with quoting Harry Potter.

I was equating the atheist with the Muggle.

To wit: “Never notice nuffink, they don’.”

 

[atheistgirl]

To wit: “Never notice nuffink, they don’.”

There are some very clever, very kind, very knowledgeable posters here, very keen to help people in a way and manner that is very clearly with a great sense of patience, thoughfullness kindness and charity.

I learn a lot, in fact, most, from these posters.

Perhaps you could too?

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

I was equating the atheist with the Muggle. ."

You might take the time to make yourself more clear then.

Sarah x

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I’ve never once refered to God as a genie. It’s you that keeps doing that.

On the contrary, I’m not one the quoting Bible verses that justify seeing God as some magical provider only tout the lack of it as lack of evidence in His existence.

Are the phrases wrong. Did Jesus say these things or not?

No, they’re misunderstood.

I don’t know who you listen to, so no, why would I?

Simply put, you say “This has been my experience, not yours.”
I’ve had the same said to me by people I criticize for relying too much on spiritual experiences.

Think about that for a moment.

Yes it is, and I find it very incomfortable, that, were it true, God listens to and answers the prayers of a driver running late looking for a lost item, but ignores the pleas of the world, including the Pope, to return a little innocent girl to her family.

Following your logic, it was this same God who answered the prayers to return a kidnapped Catholic priest whilst I lost my wallet containing my savings and several important membership cards.

Again, your point?

When it comes to the issued of proclaimed answered prayers, yes, I do have a problem with that. I’m glad for you that you don’t, and your faith allows you to see something I don’t. But for me, that is seriously wrong-headed, and it will never be otherwise.

So basically, you’d rather wish complete unhappiness to the whole world instead of running a system that tries to alleviate the suffering of as many as possible.

You’ve once more demonstrated another ill espoused by atheists. Their nihilism drives them with a delusional sense of heroism because they’d rather see great evil to justify their point.

You have your faith, and that’s great for you. For me, looking in, I’m aware of the global response to Madeleine McCann. I’m aware she is a Catholic from a strong practicing Catholic family. I’m aware of the whole world, including the Pope, praying for her safe return.

And I remember all the newspapers crying and showing people praying for Father Bossi’s safe return from terrorist kidnappers.

I ask again, what’s your point?

You see something in this scenario that I don’t. Great. But to me, yes it is quite simple, and I find it very uncomfortable that I see people waving their hands in the air and shouting with joy that Jesus answered their prayers to find their keys, move house, get a job, win some money, all pretty variable odds wise, yet with something very cut and dry - return the little innocent girl alive and well to her family - after 5 years, nothing.

You don’t realize how much of a tool you are in the great debate that has always been raging. You keep referring to this one example, as if it means anything.

You think stuff like this hasn’t happened before and the opposite hasn’t happened before? I’ve already given you two experiences of the latter.

It’s funny how I, the Catholic here, see the world as more complex while, the atheist, are seeing things faaar to simply. Atheists like to make themselves the complete opposite of ‘simple faith’ yet here you are exhibiting ‘simple reasoning’.

To an all loving, all caring, all kind, all good personal loving God, it shouldn’t be.

It shouldn’t and it isn’t but we’re not that God. We’re only human. We have limits. We don’t see the bigger picture. You may not like Jim Carrey but Bruce Almighty is just one of the few comedy movies that touch on the subject of mere man playing God (literally).

 

[atheistgirl]

It’s funny how I, the Catholic here, see the world as more complex while, the atheist, are seeing things faaar to simply. Atheists like to make themselves the complete opposite of ‘simple faith’ yet here you are exhibiting ‘simple reasoning’.

What can I tell ya. I’m a simple kinda gal

Perhaps I’m not sophisticated enough to engage great theological minds on their intellectual playing field

But my simple approach to life and living hasn’t seen me wrong yet

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

Again, your point?

Very simple really.

I don’t have a problem understanding bad things happening in this world, to anyone. I understand these things in the various contexts in which they occur.

I do have a problem in understanding these things happening, where God is introduced into the equation, a personal loving God, who has the hairs on our heads counted, and yet does not answer the prayers of the whole world in relation to Madeleine McCann, for example. A personal loving God who has promised that when we ask in His name, it will be granted.

I have a problem with that, because there is no evidence that I can see, that prayers are routinely or consistently answered, and certainly not in a way that would be objectively verifiable.

Based on the promise of God, this is a problem for me.

I’m sorry that this may indicated to you just how simple minded I am, but there it is.

Sarah x

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

But my simple approach to life and living hasn’t seen me wrong yet

I’ve head the same from religious people as well.

I’m just pointing out the irony.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I have a problem with that, because there is no evidence that I can see, that prayers are routinely or consistently answered, and certainly not in a way that would be objectively verifiable.

Have you forgotten other people’s responses to this already?

God does answer. That doesn’t mean that answer is a yes or a no.

Frankly, you’re simplification of this is the very cause of your incapacity and it is a problem. I work in B2B marketing 'mmkay. Part of my job is to research how the whole big business world thinks. You think science is complicated? Try studying the way entire corporations interact with each other without so much as a single BMA degree. I cannot afford to be too simple minded. On the other hand, my limits make me realize that not even the most educated person (or group of educated persons) can fully grasp the web of cause-and-effect that comes out of people having the free will to make so many decisions.

God does have a hand in our lives but you can’t expect Him to resolve your problems like he’s some genie. A God who handles the complications of life in that manner will only bring disaster (so I guess nihilists get their wish that they’d rather live in a world ruled by nothing, filled with despair, than a world where this a God who is trying to get people to decide what’s best for them).

 

[atheistgirl]

I’ve head the same from religious people as well.

Nothing ironic in that. Some people have a very simple faith. I gather many of the Catholic Saints did.

Anyhow, time to draw a line, this has wandered way off topic.

Sarah x

 

[PRmerger]

There are some very clever, very kind, very knowledgeable posters here, very keen to help people in a way and manner that is very clearly with a great sense of patience, thoughfullness kindness and charity.

I learn a lot, in fact, most, from these posters.

Perhaps you could too?

Sarah x

Well, Sarah, for some reason my posts always seem to get under your skin, and I really can’t figure out what it is that you find so irksome about them.

I have never received an infraction for being uncharitable.

I have offered you a friendship request and have done my very very best to be gracious and kind to you, and only up the ante when the bet is raised.

I am as charitable as the poster who responds to me is.

While I like you and take everything you say with interest, I will continue to post as I always have. Your comments above are, well, just weird and it appears that you must have me mixed up with someone else.

 

[PRmerger]

You might take the time to make yourself more clear then.

Sarah x

I apologize for being unclear, then.

 

[atheistgirl]

I work in B2B marketing 'mmkay. Part of my job is to research how the whole big business world thinks. You think science is complicated? Try studying the way entire corporations interact with each other without so much as a single BMA degree.

In my business, I’m quite well know in my own small way for cutting through the hype certain business types like to try and make us swim in, and getting to the core issues pretty quickly - I’m also quite well known in my own small way for eating ‘‘marketing’’ experts and ‘‘PR’’ executives for breakfast

You remind me I found Organizational Psychology very interesting when I took it.

I had the advantage though, of actually running a very successful real world business while doing so, so could easily identify what is actually useful, while seeing through the fizz of some ‘‘experts’’ self congratulatory intellectual self-stimulation

As I said, we are way off topic, so time to leave it there I think.

Sarah x

 

[PRmerger]

You’ve once more demonstrated another ill espoused by atheists. Their nihilism drives them with a delusional sense of heroism because they’d rather see great evil to justify their point.

'zactly.

That there is suffering in the world is incontrovertible.

The atheist’s answer to why this occurs: it just does. It’s meaningless and there is no justice.

The Christian’s answer to this is: God makes it up to the innocent.

From Jimmy Akin:

…suffering–including innocent suffering–exists in this
life. It just does, and us wanting it to be otherwise will not change
this fact. The question is how we interpret the existence of suffering.

It seems that we can interpret it in one of two ways: Either the
sufferings of the innocent are meaningless and can never be redeemed or
they are part of larger plan in which they do make sense and they can
be redeemed. It is belief in God that allows the latter possibility to
happen.

I, personally, would not like to believe that the innocent who suffer
are just out of luck, that their suffering was meaningless and that
nothing will ever happen to make it up to them. I’d rather believe that
there is a meaning and purpose to what happens to us–even if I don’t
fully understand it in this life–and that we live in a world in which
those who have suffered innocently will ultimately be comforted and
have their sufferings all made up to them.

So that’s what I do believe–that we’re not living in a
meaningless world in which people suffer to no purpose and they will
never be compensated. Instead, even if we can’t understand it all from
our tiny perspective, we’re living in a world that is guided by a
loving God who will vindicate the innocent who have suffered, who will
wipe away their tears and give them happiness, who will make sense of all the pain and anguish
that they have had to bear, and who will ultimately bring good out of
their sufferings–just like he did the sufferings of his Son on the
Cross.

When faced with the reality of innocent suffering, one can either suffer a loss of faith and suppose that the world is meaningless and cruel or one can make a leap of faith and believe in a world were suffering can have meaning and where the innocent will be compensated.

I choose to leap.

 

[PRmerger]

Following your logic, it was this same God who answered the prayers to return a kidnapped Catholic priest whilst I lost my wallet containing my savings and several important membership cards.

I had no idea about this story, LW! Thanks for making me aware!

catholicnewsagency.com/news/italian_missionary_priest_freed_by_abu_sayyaf_benedict_xvi_rejoices/

God is good, indeed!

 

[CopticChristian]

I had no idea about this story, LW! Thanks for making me aware!

catholicnewsagency.com/news/italian_missionary_priest_freed_by_abu_sayyaf_benedict_xvi_rejoices/

God is good, indeed!

Merge,

Holy Strippers. That is the posting. I suggest everyone start with post # 116. I summarized a position in post 115 and what followed is fascinating. How did we get from Holy strippers to all that followed? 42 posts in the making and how did that happen?..It is a marvel. Isn’t the mind a wonderful thing?

I am not complaining. I ask everyone to understand the train of thought as it reaches this point and ask yourself How did we get from there to here. I don’t have a clue.

Holy strippers…Moral or Immoral…that is the question…?