Holy water isn't holy water unless blessed by a traditional priest?!

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agnostic said:
I’m lost again :confused: What’s the difference then if the outcome is the same?
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  1. It is not certain that God will exorcise in the case described.
  2. Many Catholics may not understand what holy water is or for what purpose to use it, and so using holy water blessed according to the new rite may be of lesser benefit for these people.
 
This thread has reached the point were Catholicism can start to sound like a horror movie. Superstition and sympathetic magic are the result the moment our focus ceases to be steadfastly on God and starts to drift onto the supposed powerful properties of the sacramentals themselves.

There is a profound difference between Catholic spirituality and profane spiritualism. At times the Church has discouraged the use of sacramentals because people treat them like magic potions and vampire repellent.

Those who go around sniffing evil and watching for supposed demonic forces have almost always had their gaze seduced away from Christ, a condition of spiritual blindness.

Any Catholic who finds him or herself treating a sacramental like a charm should due whatever is required in order to refocus on God alone.

The Chancellor
 
Chancellor said:
This thread has reached the point were Catholicism can start to sound like a horror movie. Superstition and sympathetic magic are the result the moment our focus ceases to be steadfastly on God and starts to drift onto the supposed powerful properties of the sacramentals themselves.

There is a profound difference between Catholic spirituality and profane spiritualism. At times the Church has discouraged the use of sacramentals because people treat them like magic potions and vampire repellent.

Those who go around sniffing evil and watching for supposed demonic forces have almost always had their gaze seduced away from Christ, a condition of spiritual blindness.

Any Catholic who finds him or herself treating a sacramental like a charm should due whatever is required in order to refocus on God alone.

The Chancellor
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This smacks of embarrassment at genuine Catholic piety.

By faith, we know that demons exist and that the priest’s prayer of exorcism works, so we have every reason to use it under the sacramental of holy water, especially in the light of temptations we may be experiencing or other circumstances in which we suspect a demonic influence.
 
Dauphin said:
This smacks of embarrassment at genuine Catholic piety.

By faith, we know that demons exist and that the priest’s prayer of exorcism works, so we have every reason to use it under the sacramental of holy water, especially in the light of temptations we may be experiencing or other circumstances in which we suspect a demonic influence.
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Your reply is an exact instantiation of my point. You speak of demons, demonic influence, exorcism, and of course the sacramental holy water. There is no mention of the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit. There is no mention of Jesus.

You may, if you wish, stand in the face of evil with your formulaic prayer and your blessed water. I must say, however, that I don’t recommend it. As for me I will stick with our Lord.

There is no embarrassment, but there is a judgement, and here it is:

If your rituals do not start and end in and through the will and power of God they are neither Catholic nor pious.

Please do not think I am trivializing your position. Nor am I joking. My knowledge that saying a correct prayer and the possession of some holy water are not sufficient preparation for the confrontation with evil is not based on reading a book.

May the Lord of Mercy guard your every step.

The Chancellor
 
Chancellor said:
Your reply is an exact instantiation of my point. You speak of demons, demonic influence, exorcism, and of course the sacramental holy water. There is no mention of the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit. There is no mention of Jesus.

You may, if you wish, stand in the face of evil with your formulaic prayer and your blessed water. I must say, however, that I don’t recommend it. As for me I will stick with our Lord.
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You’re assuming that Dauphin is saying that a sacramental is efficacious outside of the Lord. I don’t think he’s saying that at all.

It is true that piety and faith are integral to the efficacy of sacramentals, but we must guard ourselves from Donatism.
 
Have we ever heard the phrase, Trust in God’s mercy!. This is what it all comes down to. If we do not trust, we are going through the motions. Is we have trust, God will not let us down.
prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
Deacon_Ed_B said:
Have we ever heard the phrase, Trust in God’s mercy!. This is what it all comes down to. If we do not trust, we are going through the motions. Is we have trust, God will not let us down.
prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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🙂 This is the bottom line.
 
**
An all knowing God can certainly remove the demons yet He interacts with us personally. If the Priest intentionally ignores or omits a prayer to ask for something from God, should God give it to him anyways, even if he didn’t want it?

The priest who doesn’t pray the prayer, does not want the action and God respects that.**

**As I have said elsewhere, God gives us BETTER than we expect or ask–even in blessing Holy Water.

God is NOT limited by what particular prayers are said or not said in blessings. And He’s certainly NOT a legalist.

Face it–NO Holy Water is just as powerful as EF Holy Water.

Deal.**
 
bpbasilphx said:
**
An all knowing God can certainly remove the demons yet He interacts with us personally. If the Priest intentionally ignores or omits a prayer to ask for something from God, should God give it to him anyways, even if he didn’t want it?

The priest who doesn’t pray the prayer, does not want the action and God respects that.**

**As I have said elsewhere, God gives us BETTER than we expect or ask–even in blessing Holy Water.

God is NOT limited by what particular prayers are said or not said in blessings. And He’s certainly NOT a legalist.

Face it–NO Holy Water is just as powerful as EF Holy Water.

Deal.**
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Why is it the same when the prayers are different. I go to the NO Mass and do not go to an EF Mass yet I know there are logical reasons that some prayers are superior to others or else it really doesn’t matter what we ask of God. I am not saying this as a strict Traditionalist yet I see the logic of the arguements compared to the rebuttal.

Do you have a logical response to the questions raised in this thread, all I have seen is an insistence of equality with no reason for it.

God does respect our wishes and our denials, or else it doesn’t matter what we ask of God.

I agree that God is not a legalist and will work outside our legal structures yet that doesn’t mean that we just ignore our requirement to seek obedience and petition God specifically.

We should provide principles and they should hold, according to the principle provided as a rebuttal it should be good enough to never petition God directly.
Example,
“God, for everyones needs we pray to the Lord”
Nothing else would be necessary…

I am not sure the principle holds as a rebuttal to the original point of this thread.

God Bless
Scylla
 
If I was beset by demons I would call a priest for help…I don’t think there is any more of less problem with demons since the water has been blessed differently

It there are truly demons trying to attack you I think you need more than a splash or two of Holy Water
 
redrosetea said:
If I was beset by demons I would call a priest for help…I don’t think there is any more of less problem with demons since the water has been blessed differently

It there are truly demons trying to attack you I think you need more than a splash or two of Holy Water
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You are right, I would call a Catholic Priest too.

(funny thing, in Hollywood movies or anywhere, when this sort of thing happens, everyone knows just who to call)

Scylla
 
agnostic said:
GhostBusters !!!

(Sorry - but I can’t be the only one that thought that 😛 )

😃 😃 😃
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That’s alright, I have a sense of humor…

But really, when you see some freaky stuff, lets say someone messes with a ouiji board and then all of a sudden you have some whacked out spirit scaring the hell out of people, what do people look to. They look for a Catholic Priest.

…anyway back to the topic… Holy Water.

God Bless
Scylla
 
bpbasilphx said:
But I think in this situation, if no priest was available to bless the house, I would prefer to use water blessed with the traditional formula.

You don’t actually think that the old form has more efficacy or juju than a new form, do you?
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First off, efficacy and “juju” are not the same thing.

And yes, I just so happen to believe that there is more of a possibility of a demon being driven out if a priest prays “I exorcise thee in the name of God the Father almighty, and in the name of Jesus Christ His Son, our Lord, and in the power of the Holy Ghost, that you may be able to put to flight all the power of the enemy, and be able to root out and supplant that enemy and his apostate angels” rather than “Water, please remind us of our baptism”. This might be due to the fact that Jesus Christ said “Ask and it will be given to you”.

But I’m obviously insane for believing it, because God loves me so much I can just do whatever I want. Oh look, I’ve found a bag full of beans, I’m just gonna sprinkle them around from now on; God knows I want them to drive out demons, so it’ll work. Thank you for opening my eyes to the truth bpbasilphx.
 
Jsmith17 said:
First off, efficacy and “juju” are not the same thing.

And yes, I just so happen to believe that there is more of a possibility of a demon being driven out if a priest prays “I exorcise thee in the name of God the Father almighty, and in the name of Jesus Christ His Son, our Lord, and in the power of the Holy Ghost, that you may be able to put to flight all the power of the enemy, and be able to root out and supplant that enemy and his apostate angels” rather than “Water, please remind us of our baptism”. This might be due to the fact that Jesus Christ said “Ask and it will be given to you”.

But I’m obviously insane for believing it, because God loves me so much I can just do whatever I want. Oh look, I’ve found a bag full of beans, I’m just gonna sprinkle them around from now on; God knows I want them to drive out demons, so it’ll work. Thank you for opening my eyes to the truth bpbasilphx.
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Thanks, I wasn’t sure how to respond to that “ju-ju” comment - but it makes me think of the art of medicine. Is it “ju-ju” that some pills are better at clearing up your sinuses, and other pills are better at relieving your headache.

In the same way that physicians (healers of the physical body) need to be careful how much of each kind of drug they put into each pill, and also be careful of how they label them, so also (it seems to me) priests (healers of the soul) need also to be careful what they put into the various blessings, and not treat it as some kind of superstition. Spiritual things are just as real as physical things; I think in this age of science, we tend to forget about that.
 
Chancellor said:
Your reply is an exact instantiation of my point. You speak of demons, demonic influence, exorcism, and of course the sacramental holy water. There is no mention of the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit. There is no mention of Jesus.

You may, if you wish, stand in the face of evil with your formulaic prayer and your blessed water. I must say, however, that I don’t recommend it. As for me I will stick with our Lord.

There is no embarrassment, but there is a judgement, and here it is:

If your rituals do not start and end in and through the will and power of God they are neither Catholic nor pious.

Please do not think I am trivializing your position. Nor am I joking. My knowledge that saying a correct prayer and the possession of some holy water are not sufficient preparation for the confrontation with evil is not based on reading a book.

May the Lord of Mercy guard your every step.

The Chancellor
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You’ve misrepresented what I’ve said. I didn’t say Holy Water is sufficient on its own, or that it is efficacious without God, or even that it must be used. I’m saying that the use of holy water for the purpose of purifying a place is not something to be ashamed of, and is entirely in harmony with doing the will of God and praying for His help in a genuine way.

I should remind you that the prayers of exorcism for Holy Water do invoke the Trinity. We’re not talking about holy water as a magic charm, but about something which confers the effects of a prayer.
 
First off, efficacy and “juju” are not the same thing.

For the purposes of my posts, they are.

And yes, I just so happen to believe that there is more of a possibility of a demon being driven out if a priest prays “I exorcise thee in the name of God the Father almighty, and in the name of Jesus Christ His Son, our Lord, and in the power of the Holy Ghost, that you may be able to put to flight all the power of the enemy, and be able to root out and supplant that enemy and his apostate angels” rather than “Water, please remind us of our baptism”. This might be due to the fact that Jesus Christ said “Ask and it will be given to you”.

The Church disagrees. According to the Church, holy water is holy water, as long as it is blessed with the approved forms by a validly ordained priest. All holy water is equal.

But I’m obviously insane for believing it, because God loves me so much I can just do whatever I want. Oh look, I’ve found a bag full of beans, I’m just gonna sprinkle them around from now on; God knows I want them to drive out demons, so it’ll work.

If they are blessed by a priest, and used for a pious purpose, yes, God will work through jelly beans. He generally does more than we can imagine or think. He does not limit Himself to what we ask, but responds even more generously. Haven’t you learned that?

** Thank you for opening my eyes to the truth bpbasilphx.**

**Any time, my son. My pleasure.
  • Basil
PS. If you’re trying to be insulting or sarcastic, it’s not working. I’ve already been insulted by experts and this didn’t even come close.**
 
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