Home Birth Among Catholic Women?

[KellyPalmer]

“Nurses will be in your room CONSTANTLY.”

Not really–there will be long stretches of not seeing anybody.

“You will get ZERO rest until baby is born.”

Yes–it’s called childbirth.

That said, a nice nap after the epidural is set up is just the thing to help a mommy rest up for the big event.

“Many hospitals prevent you from eating anything in case you have to have emergency surgery.”

Yes–aspirating food under general anesthesia can kill the mother.

“What they don’t tell you is that the “epi” will also slow your contractions and possibly stop them.”

The difference is not significant with contemporary doses. Here’s a post on the subject from a Canadian anesthesiologist.

theadequatemother.wordpress.com/2012/02/15/epidurals-and-progression-of-labour/

Also, it’s more tolerable to have a slightly longer painless labor than a slightly shorter excruciating labor.

“We also skip the “eye drops” since they are to treat gonorrhea. Do you have that STD? They started doing eye drops routinely because it was easier and cheaper than to test the mother to see if she had an STD.”

A lot of STDs are very quiet in the female carrier. Some women may be unaware that their husbands have not been perfectly faithful. Allowing a newborn baby to go blind is a heck of a thing to do to an innocent child just to show the doctors who is boss.

This sort of attitude about vaccines and standard hospital treatments for newborns and infants has been creating a public health nightmare.

"An investigation into the death of the girl - born in a regional Queensland hospital last year - heard that the mother, 30, wanted an entirely natural birth for her first baby.

"Ms Clements said in her findings: “As part of the birthing plan and, in accordance with her parents’ spiritual beliefs, the baby was not administered vitamin K after her birth, or any other medications.”

"The parents had made that decision despite being given information at an antenatal visit that newborn babies required vitamin K to prevent bleeding problems in the first few months after birth, the coroner said. She said the pregnancy was uneventful and the baby was born 10 days early in hospital.

"The baby was not given vitamin K - nor was she vaccinated for Hepatitis B - before the mother and baby went home a day after the birth. A month later, the mother noticed her baby had been sleeping a lot and was not feeding as much as usual.

"In the early hours of the next morning the mother saw the baby was limp and an ambulance was called.

"The baby was taken to the nearest hospital and then airlifted to Brisbane’s Mater Hospital, where a CT scan revealed the child had bleeding on the brain, the findings said.

"The baby was given plasma and vitamin K, but she died the next day.

“After an autopsy a pathologist concluded the cause of death was haemorrhages due to late onset vitamin K deficiency bleeding.”

couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/newborns-death-highlights-risk-of-not-having-vitamin-k/story-e6freoof-1226550664248

We shouldn’t be going a la carte with basic medical care for our babies.

When you look at the science, you see that there is no evidence for the fear mongering against eating in labor. Here is a Cochrane Review (gold standard of research) that looked at every study that has ever been done on eating during labor - summaries.cochrane.org/CD003930/eating-and-drinking-in-labour

Many Catholics can’t get down with the idea that God’s design of babies is fundamentally flawed and that every single one needs to be injected with vitamin K. There are certain things that increase a baby’s risk for Hemorrhagic disease and in those cases, I would definitely opt for Vitamin K injection for my baby. However we must acknowledge that this so-called “a la cart with basic medical care” is referring to something that is not even therapeutic in nature. It is certainly fine to choose the vitamin K shot for your baby but let’s not tell others what they should and shouldn’t do with regard to non-therapeutic measures.

 

[KellyPalmer]

I haven’t made any disparaging remarks against you. The fact that someone disagrees with you and would never, ever, ever, ever, ever agree to what you proposing does not mean they are disparaging you personally. As I understand it, you have the right to do whatever you want.
I don’t have a problem with a choice being counter-cultural if I think it’s a good choice on its own merit, but I never choose something simply because it’s counter-cultural! That just comes down to being a little snob and thinking the rest of the world is full of idiots while you are uniquely intellectually suprior or gifted with some sort of devine inner eye or something. Sometimes, if most people do something, there’s a good reason that most people do it. I’m certainly not going through the trouble of doing something I don’t want to do and that I feel is risky, bothersome, and unecessary just because that’s what all the self-proclaimed intellectual, counter-cultural crowd is doing! That would be nuts!

Most people think “gay marriage” is wonderful and should be celebrated. Most people think surrogacy is good and moral. Most people think abortion should be legal and accessible. I think if you study the history of childbirth (see the scholarly books I linked up-thread), you will understand why most people choose hospital birth and it’s probably not for the reasons that you think, given your statements here.

The problem here is your over-the-top dramatic responses and fear mongering about how terrible you think homebirthing is. We get it. You don’t like it. You would never ever ever in 500 million years ever ever ever choose it. Cool. But you are literally telling other people what they should and shouldn’t do in this thread. People don’t like that. You do what you want with your body, your birth and your babies. We will do what we like. You might want to consider what side looks more rational here.

 

[Allegra]

Most people think “gay marriage” is wonderful and should be celebrated. Most people think surrogacy is good and moral. Most people think abortion should be legal and accessible. I think if you study the history of childbirth (see the scholarly books I linked up-thread), you will understand why most people choose hospital birth and it’s probably not for the reasons that you think, given your statements here.

The problem here is your over-the-top dramatic responses and fear mongering about how terrible you think homebirthing is. We get it. You don’t like it. You would never ever ever in 500 million years ever ever ever choose it. Cool. But you are literally telling other people what they should and shouldn’t do in this thread. People don’t like that. You do what you want with your body, your birth and your babies. We will do what we like. You might want to consider what side looks more rational here.

Show me the quote where I told someone what they should do. You can’t. It didn’t happen. I stated why I would never do it. I didn’t make any comments about someone else.

PS- Is there a reason why it’s fear-mongering and telling other people what to do when someone disagrees with you, but it’s okay for you to express your “rational” opinion?

 

[KellyPalmer]

Show me the quote where I told someone what they should do. You can’t. It didn’t happen. I stated why I would never do it. I didn’t make any comments about someone else.

PS- Is there a reason why it’s fear-mongering and telling other people what to do when someone disagrees with you, but it’s okay for you to express your “rational” opinion?

After criticizing the PP’s “attitude on vaccines” and her choice not to do the Vitamin K shot, you stated – “We shouldn’t be going a la carte with basic medical care for our babies.”

No one thinks you are fear mongering because you disagree. People are thinking that because of things like comments about safe options being “super dangerous” and sharing obscure anecdote instead of hard facts.

 

[Allegra]

After criticizing the PP’s “attitude on vaccines” and her choice not to do the Vitamin K shot, you stated – “We shouldn’t be going a la carte with basic medical care for our babies.”

No one thinks you are fear mongering because you disagree. People are thinking that because of things like comments about safe options being “super dangerous” and sharing obscure anecdote instead of hard facts.

You are incorrectly attributing someone else’s remarks to myself. A different poster made those remarks. I have no information about vitamin K and have not offered any on this thread. I accept your apology in advance.

 

[briemile]

I personally think that pregnancies and delivers are very unpredictable and things can go wrong in the matter of minutes.

Ditto

 

[babochka]

The reason some mothers choose to take the risks is because most of the research does not take future births into account. As a faithful Catholic, the risks of c-section birth need to be taken into consideration as family size is often limited due to the risks associated with future births.

Amen! This is actually what led me down this path in the first place. I was (and am) a pretty “go along to get along” type of person. I obediently checked myself into the hospital for an induction because I had crossed the “magic number” of 41 weeks, 4 days. Induction was difficult, but we finally got labor going. After several hours, I had an epidural. 24 hours after I checked in, my son was delivered by c-section. They said that he was too big for my body. Recovery was challenging, but I had a husband at home for several weeks, and it progressed normally. I’ll never know if my c-section was actually necessary, but it was a very difficult birth for me, emotionally. My 3 day hospital stay was the least restful time I have ever had in my life. I have a newborn baby who wants to nurse around the clock. Just when I get a snippet of sleep, the nurse comes in to check on me. She leaves, but 20 minutes later the baby’s nurse needs to check on him. This repeats itself hourly. They expect me to keep track to the minute of every second this baby nurses, and on which side!

My path to radicalism started 11 months later when I conceived my 2nd child. I wanted to avoid another c-section at all costs. That I would attempt a vbac was a given for me. I wanted more children and I knew that multiple c-sections increase the risk for all sorts of complications. I started to learn about the “cascade of interventions” that contribute to our astronomical c-section rate of 30% in this country. Do you really believe that 30% of women cannot deliver their babies safely in the way that God intended? My 2nd baby was a hospital vbac. I was again induced, because my babies like to hang around. I was against the induction, but my doctor was adamant, so I gave in. I did not have an epidural, though I asked for one. The anesthesiologist was busy in an emergency c-section of triplets. My daughter was a full pound larger than the baby they told me was too big. It was a good experience. I still didn’t get any rest in the hospital, but I only stayed for one day.

Ok, this is too long for CAF, but I can’t shorten it, so I’m going to continue in the next post.

 

[babochka]

Continued…

I had learned so much researching for my vbac. I learned about hospital procedures and how they are not designed with individual patients in mind, but to have standardized care that keep the hospital running smoothly. I learned about the OB mindset, how they take actions that they know might increase the necessity for a c-section, but that is an outcome that they can control. I learned about the real risks of c-section to the life of the mother. My OB told me about that, as we were deciding together about a vbac. You don’t really go through those risks in your mind when you’ve been in labor for 24 hours and the doctor comes to you with a consent form. I learned that standard hospital procedures like continuous fetal monitoring have shown absolutely no benefit (over intermittent monitoring), but it sure is easier for the nurses to be able to watch your strip from a central location, rather than have to come to your room frequently. I learned that staying in bed isn’t good for labor, but continuous monitoring makes it necessary. When I was in labor with my second child, without pain medication, the nurse kept coming into the room to scold me, telling me to stay in one place because my movements (due to pain!) were getting the monitor out of place and she couldn’t get a reading. Unspoken message: just go ahead and get the epidural. It will make my life easier.

To be continued…

 

[babochka]

For my 3rd baby, I wanted something more. I hired a midwife, a CPM licensed by the state medical board. I got labwork, I had an ultrasound, I had good prenatal care. My visits with the midwife (in my home) lasted 45 minutes. We discussed nutrition, childbirth, choices, politics, religion. She involved my other children in the process We built a rapport, and a relationship in which I felt I could ask questions and get an honest answer without being rushed. When this baby, as with the others, hit 41 1/2 weeks of gestation, she talked to me about induction. I wanted to wait until 42 weeks, the point at which studies show there is an actual increased risk of problems. She agreed, but told me that if I did not go into labor in the next few days, she could not attend my birth and I would have to transfer to the care of an OB, but she assured me that she was still my midwife and would be there to support me in any way that she could. For the first time, I had a spontaneous labor that started early in the on “deadline” for an induction. I labored at home for 18 hours. My midwife and her assistant were there for about 15 of those hours. They were attentive to my needs, emotional, physical and medical. If they needed to monitor the baby’s heartbeat and I needed to be on my hands and knees, they would get under me with a Doppler, rather than requiring me to move onto my back. They knew that I needed energy to get through a long labor, so they made sure that I had food to eat. They respected my preferences and worked around them, to the best of their abilities. I was not required to fit into a routine, they did what they needed to do around my needs. It is well known that stress hormones (particularly adrenaline) can slow and even stop labor, and they saw it as their job to facilitate labor, not just monitor the baby. When we made the very difficult decision to transport to the hospital for what was most likely going to be a c-section (after 5 hours of pushing, the baby was not engaged), they came with me.

We got to the hospital and my midwives were treated with disdain, as little more than criminals. They tried to give the hospital my prenatal records and their very detailed record of my labor, but the hospital was not interested. Instead, my record said “no prenatal care”. During the c-section, the doctor lectured me about my choices. He told me that it was too bad that my state requires prior consent for a tubal ligation, as it would be so much better if he could just “take care of that now”. Then, he proceed to tell me that if I was ever foolish enough to have another baby, be sure to have a c-section at 37 weeks, as my uterine scar would “never make it”. (While a 37 week baby is considered full-term, a baby delivered that early is more prone to respiratory problems and often needs a stay in the NICU). My baby was very large. Larger than my midwife had predicted, larger than an ultrasound had predicted, and a full pound larger than the doctor who delivered him had predicted. I needed this c-section. I believe I’d have died without it. My baby had low blood sugar, as is common with large babies. (Yes, I was tested for gestational diabetes. No, the test was not positive, but my numbers were higher than average). Hospital protocol is to give the baby formula if nursing doesn’t bring the numbers up. They wanted to take him to the nursery and give him a bottle. I asked if I could keep him with me and finger feed him formula. They said “No, that’s not our protocol” and threatened to call social services if I didn’t consent. Finally, they got my pediatrician on the phone (who knows me well and knew of my homebirth plan). He and I talked about the situation, and he agreed to my plan for finger feeding the formula. Suddenly, my plan was just fine and hospital protocols could be waived without a problem. So why did they threaten me with social services? Because I was a crazy, irresponsible mother with no prenatal care?

4th baby - even I’m not crazy enough to try a homebirth after 2 c-sections. With a referral from my midwife, I found a wonderful, supportive medical group who had no problem with a vbac in the hospital, but they would not do a pitocin induction due to the increased danger of uterine rupture. Since my babies don’t seem to come in a time frame that makes medical professionals happy, this was a problem. I was diagnosed with Gestational Diabetes this time, so I did have extra monitoring at the end of my pregnancy. I asked my midwife to come get me into labor, which was a very long and exhausting process, but it was done without pitocin within the doctor’s timeframe. Unfortunately, I had a baby with a very strange presentation. The doctor didn’t even know what part she was presenting with, but it made a vaginal birth very difficult. (I bet my midwife could have helped fix that presentation if I’d been laboring at home - midwives have retained skills that doctors also one had because they cannot easily fall back on a c-section). With regret, I consented to my 3rd c-section. The presenting body part, by the way, was an ear. The doctor told me that I had very little scar tissue.
Pregnant one more time, I knew that I couldn’t find a doctor willing to attempt a vbac after 3 c-sections, so I found a supportive and caring doctor who was known to support women in their choices regarding childbirth, but also known as an excellent surgeon. I asked her to look around during the surgery and let me know if she thought it was safe to have another. She told me that I didn’t have a lot of scar tissue and she thought it would be fine. Note, she was assessing my personal situation in accordance with my desires and values, not just giving a blanket “no more than 3 c-sections” rule.

continued

 

[babochka]

I got pregnant again, and started spotting. I saw a different doctor this time, one known to be supportive of large families and natural childbirth. I told her my history and how I felt about c-sections. She smiled and said "I can’t recommend it, but I wouldn’t hate you if you refused to consent. " We were pretty sure I was losing the baby and she prayed with me and spoke to me of the will of God and the consolation of the Holy Spirit. She will be my doctor if God blesses me with another baby, but it has been over a year and I’ll be turning 44 next week. It doesn’t seem to be in God’s plans.

I didn’t follow the advice of that doctor who told me that I should not have any more children, but that if I was foolish enough to do so, I should have them delivered at 37 weeks by c-section. He was wrong. My children are alive and healthy, and so am I. was I irresponsible to not follow his recommendation? How many doctors have told faithful, Catholic women that they should not have any more children and how many of those women have been faced with a difficult moral dilemma because of this arbitrary advice?

It is important that doctors and other caregivers treat women with respect, and as individuals. It is important that we don’t fall into a constant “one size fits all” mode of delivering medicine. One of the strengths of the midwifery model of care is that it treats the whole person. It seems that many OBs treat your uterus and reproductive system, but forget that there is a person, too.

 

[Sarabande]

It is important that doctors and other caregivers treat women with respect, and as individuals. It is important that we don’t fall into a constant “one size fits all” mode of delivering medicine. One of the strengths of the midwifery model of care is that it treats the whole person. It seems that many OBs treat your uterus and reproductive system, but forget that there is a person, too.

I think this is very important, whether it is through a midwife or doctor. The doctors and nurses who cared for me were like that. They never tried to pressure me into doing something I didn’t want to do. Any decision I made was through my own critical thinking and research, as well as seeking advice from medical professionals whom I trusted, since I have no medical background, even if I did the research myself. My hospital experiences were different and I actually was kind of sorry to go home because I got most of my rest while there and was in complete stress once I got home.

When I decided to do a c-section rather than a VBAC towards the end of my pregnancy, it was my decision, alone, and I felt comfortable with it. My doctor was very willing to go for the VBAC if I still wanted it and I knew she would have followed my wishes. In retrospect, I’m still very happy with my decision because my son ended up being close to 10 lbs (over a lb larger than what was predicted), and based on my family history of female family members who have had major gynecological problems due to giving birth to babies over 9 lbs, and a history of three aunts who had lost their lives, as well as their babies during the natural birthing process due to large children, it was a good decision for me. Other women might feel otherwise and that’s ok. I think what is important is the comfort and psychological well-being of the mother who is concerned with doing what SHE thinks is best for the health of her baby, not what any kind of caregiver with all the hands-on experience and medical knowledge or any other person with all the reading materials and stats in the world tries to tell the mother otherwise.

Here’s to all women and their children, and prayers that each mother does what is best for the health and well-being of her child and for herself.

 

[babochka]

I think this is very important, whether it is through a midwife or doctor. The doctors and nurses who cared for me were like that. They never tried to pressure me into doing something I didn’t want to do. Any decision I made was through my own critical thinking and research, as well as seeking advice from medical professionals whom I trusted, since I have no medical background, even if I did the research myself. My hospital experiences were different and I actually was kind of sorry to go home because I got most of my rest while there and was in complete stress once I got home.

If my early experiences had been more like my last 2, I think I might have a completely different approach to this question.

Here’s to all women and their children, and prayers that each mother does what is best for the health and well-being of her child and for herself.

 

[catholicmamajoy]

I think this is very important, whether it is through a midwife or doctor. The doctors and nurses who cared for me were like that. They never tried to pressure me into doing something I didn’t want to do. Any decision I made was through my own critical thinking and research, as well as seeking advice from medical professionals whom I trusted, since I have no medical background, even if I did the research myself. My hospital experiences were different and I actually was kind of sorry to go home because I got most of my rest while there and was in complete stress once I got home.

When I decided to do a c-section rather than a VBAC towards the end of my pregnancy, it was my decision, alone, and I felt comfortable with it. My doctor was very willing to go for the VBAC if I still wanted it and I knew she would have followed my wishes. In retrospect, I’m still very happy with my decision because my son ended up being close to 10 lbs (over a lb larger than what was predicted), and based on my family history of female family members who have had major gynecological problems due to giving birth to babies over 9 lbs, and a history of three aunts who had lost their lives, as well as their babies during the natural birthing process due to large children, it was a good decision for me. Other women might feel otherwise and that’s ok. I think what is important is the comfort and psychological well-being of the mother who is concerned with doing what SHE thinks is best for the health of her baby, not what any kind of caregiver with all the hands-on experience and medical knowledge or any other person with all the reading materials and stats in the world tries to tell the mother otherwise.

Here’s to all women and their children, and prayers that each mother does what is best for the health and well-being of her child and for herself.

I also pray that all moms who choose a hospital birth because they feel it’s the safest option for themselves or their baby take the time to research their facility very carefully and are assured the staff is ready to perform a C-section within minutes, not wait for an anesthetist or OB to arrive or not have to be moved to another unit or floor. The hospital in a small town east of where I live doesn’t have 24 hour anesthesia coverage nor an OR on their birthing unit. They have to call in staff for an emergency C-section. That provides a very “false sense of security” for a patient if she doesn’t know that ahead of time when she chooses to deliver there. It’s things like that, along with inflexible “policies”, and lack of options for laboring and delivering that give hospitals a bad rap when it comes to giving birth in one!

 

[Allegra]

I also pray that all moms who choose a hospital birth because they feel it’s the safest option for themselves or their baby take the time to research their facility very carefully and are assured the staff is ready to perform a C-section within minutes, not wait for an anesthetist or OB to arrive or not have to be moved to another unit or floor. The hospital in a small town east of where I live doesn’t have 24 hour anesthesia coverage nor an OR on their birthing unit. That provides a very “false sense of security” for a patient if she doesn’t know that ahead of time when she chooses to deliver there. It’s things like that, along with inflexible “policies”, and lack of options for laboring and delivering that give hospitals a bad rap when it comes to giving birth in one!

That’s true. My friend had her baby in a certain hospital which is not highly thought of for maternity. She did this reluctantly and entirely because her mother worked there and declared that she was personally offended when my friend told her she wanted to go to the good hospital instead. Her doctor promised her that she didn’t need a c-section or even to be cut, despite the obvious fact that she was bleeding. By the time her daughter was born, my friend was torn from stem to stern (no epidural), had to have two surgeries to repair the damage, and went through a year and a half of physical therapy so she could move her bowels properly again. She’s pregnant with her second now and she has been told by no less than three extremely qualified doctors, one of which specializes in high-risk deliveries, that she needs to have a c-section this time, because of the damage to her body from the other hospital. Obviously, she’s changed hospitals and doctors now.

 

[KellyPalmer]

You are incorrectly attributing someone else’s remarks to myself. A different poster made those remarks. I have no information about vitamin K and have not offered any on this thread. I accept your apology in advance.

Oh ok. You are the one who is vehemently opposed to a caricature that you’ve created. You’ve repeatedly made disparaging remarks against a fabricated image you’ve falsely painted of ExGratia.

 

[ExGratia]

I haven’t made any disparaging remarks against you. The fact that someone disagrees with you and would never, ever, ever, ever, ever agree to what you proposing does not mean they are disparaging you personally. As I understand it, you have the right to do whatever you want.
I don’t have a problem with a choice being counter-cultural if I think it’s a good choice on its own merit, but I never choose something simply because it’s counter-cultural! That just comes down to being a little snob and thinking the rest of the world is full of idiots while you are uniquely intellectually suprior or gifted with some sort of devine inner eye or something. Sometimes, if most people do something, there’s a good reason that most people do it. I’m certainly not going through the trouble of doing something I don’t want to do and that I feel is risky, bothersome, and unecessary just because that’s what all the self-proclaimed intellectual, counter-cultural crowd is doing! That would be nuts!

What was disparaging was your remark about the size of my bathroom. Your comment about me having my whole family present for a water birth is a caricature of a homebirth mother.

I agree one should not choose something merely to be counter cultural. One also should not blindly follow the status quo. I think it is rather judgmental of you to imply anyone is a “little snob” (and could be construed as the pot calling the kettle black, if you will).

You don’t know anyone’s inner motivations for their choices unless they tell you, and I truly believe everyone here who has had a homebirth didn’t do it without a lot of consideration.

 

[ExGratia]

Oh ok. You are the one who is vehemently opposed to a caricature that you’ve created. You’ve repeatedly made disparaging remarks against a fabricated image you’ve falsely painted of ExGratia.

Thanks, Kelly. You beat me to it (and even used the same wording as me!).

 

[Xantippe]

"After criticizing the PP’s “attitude on vaccines” and her choice not to do the Vitamin K shot, you stated – “We shouldn’t be going a la carte with basic medical care for our babies.”

“No one thinks you are fear mongering because you disagree. People are thinking that because of things like comments about safe options being “super dangerous” and sharing obscure anecdote instead of hard facts.”

That was me, actually, in both cases. You say fear mongering, I say a sober understanding of the risks of child birth for mother and baby. Potato, pot-ah-to.

It is a good point that Catholic women do have to think more about the risks associated with multiple C-sections (a number of tricky cases have come up on the forum over the past year), but I think we should weight more heavily the welfare of the current baby over hypothetical future babies or a fun sex life. If an OB were telling me, there’s a high chance that your baby will die or be brain-damaged or have cerebral palsy or have nerve damage in the arm (i.e. Erb’s palsy), then I could not in good conscience say, “But I’ll only be able to have four kids! And my husband and I will have to abstain more!”

 

[Allegra]

What was disparaging was your remark about the size of my bathroom. Your comment about me having my whole family present for a water birth is a caricature of a homebirth mother.

I agree one should not choose something merely to be counter cultural. One also should not blindly follow the status quo. I think it is rather judgmental of you to imply anyone is a “little snob” (and could be construed as the pot calling the kettle black, if you will).

You don’t know anyone’s inner motivations for their choices unless they tell you, and I truly believe everyone here who has had a homebirth didn’t do it without a lot of consideration.

I think most people would agree that making an important decision based even in part on wanting to be counter cultural is being snobbish. That was my point and I’m glad you agree with it. You were the one who brought up the importance of being counter cultural in the first place. I really don’t care if something is counter cultural or not. It has zero baring on whether it’s a good idea or not.

 

[babochka]

I think most people would agree that making an important decision based even in part on wanting to be counter cultural is being snobbish. That was my point and I’m glad you agree with it. You were the one who brought up the importance of being counter cultural in the first place. I really don’t care if something is counter cultural or not. It has zero baring on whether it’s a good idea or not.

If we believe that there is something inherently wrong with the culture, then it is a good thing to be counter-cultural. I believe that there is something inherently wrong with obstetrics and the hospital culture in this country, therefore I think it is a good thing to be counter cultural. I think that applies whether we are talking about a culture of secularism, a culture of life, or a culture that considers liability and protocol above the needs of birthing women and their children.