Home Birth Among Catholic Women?

[ExGratia]

"After criticizing the PP’s “attitude on vaccines” and her choice not to do the Vitamin K shot, you stated – “We shouldn’t be going a la carte with basic medical care for our babies.”

“No one thinks you are fear mongering because you disagree. People are thinking that because of things like comments about safe options being “super dangerous” and sharing obscure anecdote instead of hard facts.”

That was me, actually, in both cases. You say fear mongering, I say a sober understanding of the risks of child birth for mother and baby. Potato, pot-ah-to.

It is a good point that Catholic women do have to think more about the risks associated with multiple C-sections (a number of tricky cases have come up on the forum over the past year), but I think we should weight more heavily the welfare of the current baby over hypothetical future babies or a fun sex life. If an OB were telling me, there’s a high chance that your baby will die or be brain-damaged or have cerebral palsy or have nerve damage in the arm (i.e. Erb’s palsy), then I could not in good conscience say, “But I’ll only be able to have four kids! And my husband and I will have to abstain more!”

It’s rather telling that those who support homebirth (whether they themselves would have one or not) have not made any attacks or jumped to ridiculous statements like your above fictitious quote, while the stridently anti-home birth have tried to make anyone who believes there are unnecessary interventions in some situations out to be crazy, selfish, or snobs. I am sorry that you, Xantippe, are so fearful. But your posts come across as venomous, and none of us have hurt you.

 

[Allegra]

Oh ok. You are the one who is vehemently opposed to a caricature that you’ve created. You’ve repeatedly made disparaging remarks against a fabricated image you’ve falsely painted of ExGratia.

I accept your implied apology for misquoting me. I didn’t make any disparaging remark. ExGratia asked me why I would turn down “benefits for the whole family”. (Whatever that’s supposed to mean.) Another poster suggested giving birth in a bathtub. I was trying to illustrate how unimportant the convenience of the “whole family” is when making such a decision. If you will read my comment in context of my post you will see that. I haven’t made any disparaging remarks whatsoever and certainly not reapeatedly. I haven’t invented anything either. I have reacted to the multiple methods of childbirth as they have been proposed by various posters. I am indeed vehemently opposed to all of them. I think they are a terrible, risky idea, especially in a circumstance where a safe, reputable, and comfortable hospital exists at a reasonable distance for a laboring woman to travel. The fact that I am opposed to it, does not mean I am disparaging anyone. I haven’t called anyone any names. I haven’t implied they don’t care about their children or that they are trying to mislead people or even that they are irrational. I simply disagree with their conclusion.

 

[KellyPalmer]

"After criticizing the PP’s “attitude on vaccines” and her choice not to do the Vitamin K shot, you stated – “We shouldn’t be going a la carte with basic medical care for our babies.”

“No one thinks you are fear mongering because you disagree. People are thinking that because of things like comments about safe options being “super dangerous” and sharing obscure anecdote instead of hard facts.”

That was me, actually, in both cases. You say fear mongering, I say a sober understanding of the risks of child birth for mother and baby. Potato, pot-ah-to.

It is a good point that Catholic women do have to think more about the risks associated with multiple C-sections (a number of tricky cases have come up on the forum over the past year), but I think we should weight more heavily the welfare of the current baby over hypothetical future babies or a fun sex life. If an OB were telling me, there’s a high chance that your baby will die or be brain-damaged or have cerebral palsy or have nerve damage in the arm (i.e. Erb’s palsy), then I could not in good conscience say, “But I’ll only be able to have four kids! And my husband and I will have to abstain more!”

Everyone has to weigh the evidence and make a decision. There isn’t a high chance of brain damage/CP/nerve damage for all women considering a breach vaginal birth. With ye right provider trained in vaginal breach birth and the right presentation, it can be a safe option. C-section is also a safe option for breach birth. However it’s not always the false dichotomy that you are presenting here. Why all the caricatures?

 

[Allegra]

If we believe that there is something inherently wrong with the culture, then it is a good thing to be counter-cultural. I believe that there is something inherently wrong with obstetrics and the hospital culture in this country, therefore I think it is a good thing to be counter cultural. I think that applies whether we are talking about a culture of secularism, a culture of life, or a culture that considers liability and protocol above the needs of birthing women and their children.

I disagree. I think it is okay to be counter-cultural for the sake of truth. I don’t think it’s wise or intellectually honest to be counter-cultural for the sake of being counter-cultural. I think there is a high risk of cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s own face. Think of various groups of extremists who try to go around being counter-cultural. It seems they only are seeking attention or to offend others. If a person has a good reason to do something, then it doesn’t matter if it is counter-cultural or not.

 

[KellyPalmer]

I accept your implied apology for misquoting me. I didn’t make any disparaging remark. ExGratia asked me why I would turn down “benefits for the whole family”. (Whatever that’s supposed to mean.) Another poster suggested giving birth in a bathtub. I was trying to illustrate how unimportant the convenience of the “whole family” is when making such a decision. If you will read my comment in context of my post you will see that. I haven’t made any disparaging remarks whatsoever and certainly not reapeatedly. I haven’t invented anything either. I have reacted to the multiple methods of childbirth as they have been proposed by various posters. I am indeed vehemently opposed to all of them. I think they are a terrible, risky idea, especially in a circumstance where a safe, reputable, and comfortable hospital exists at a reasonable distance for a laboring woman to travel. The fact that I am opposed to it, does not mean I am disparaging anyone. I haven’t called anyone any names. I haven’t implied they don’t care about their children or that they are trying to mislead people or even that they are irrational. I simply disagree with their conclusion.

The reason others aren’t seeing you remarks the way that you do is because your version of the conversation isn’t accurate. ExGratia didn’t ask you why you would turn down benefits for the whole family. She asked you a very different question. I wonder if she has accepte your implied apology for mixing her up with someone else about the bathtub?

 

[Johanna_C]

I have had 5 home births, and I’ll do it again if I have another baby. I have 3 catholic friends and a catholic sister in law who have also had at least one home birth. We attend the extraordinary form (FSSP) and I get the sense that it is more common here. I have had complications with several of my babies and my midwife has always handled everything in a very competent and professional way.

After watching many of my friends and my mother get bullied into having c-sections that weren’t medically necessary, and watching one close friend almost die on 3 separate occasions due entirely to medical malpractice related to pregnancy, I would only go to a hospital if I had no other option.

 

[babochka]

If an OB were telling me, there’s a high chance that your baby will die or be brain-damaged or have cerebral palsy or have nerve damage in the arm (i.e. Erb’s palsy), then I could not in good conscience say, “But I’ll only be able to have four kids! And my husband and I will have to abstain more!”

How many women in this thread would decline a c-section in this situation? Of course, most women, homebirthing or not, would choose the c-section. But what if the doctor says, for example, “If you have a vbac, there’s about .05 percent chance your uterus could rupture during labor. Most ruptures are no more than a slight parting of the scar, but they are sometimes catastrophic and can lead to the death of your baby. Of course, rupture could also occur during your 3rd trimester, before labor has begun. If you elect to have a c-section, your risks include infection, excessive blood loss, negative reaction to anesthesia. While rare, a c-section can also lead to your death.” Would that be as clear a decision?

Maternal death rates in the U.S are rising. They have doubled in the last 20 years, as have seriously life-threatening complications. These are not always easy, uncomplicated decisions.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Today, we have access to the science and history at our fingertips. Once you research these things, it does point you towards birthing at home.

Not necessarily, it can very well point you in the opposite direction (at least it did for me) . Birthing is a topic of great interest for me (lol, I am getting ready to have my 6th in less than 8.5 yrs), but the research I have done has not led me to choose homebirthing. I do understand that for some mothers the research may lead them in that direction, but for others it may lead them to the hospital despite the negative aspects that can be included (there are pros and cons for each option). I wouldn’t consider this a “source”, but for example, watching ‘The Business of Being Born’ actually served as a reinforcement of my decision to birth in a hospital environment.

I do agree, though, that it is important to educate ourselves regardless of the route we take. I have been able to address things with my OB that I would have never thought of doing had I not read about it previously. My OB is very laid back but very skilled (for example, she used a special maneuver to help deliver my 11 lb 10 oz baby vaginally). She has no problem with any deviations to the norms that I may bring up, but one thing to keep in mind is that standardized procedure often does help “cover all bases” and minimize errors. I have noticed that, at least in locations where there are more patients to track, if when we do deviate from “regular procedure” we are introducing a variable that could affect our care. We need to track our care to make sure we get the care we want. For example, when I delayed vaccination with my last baby, the hospital had no problem with it and was able to conform to my wishes, but when we got to his pediatrician it was very confusing for them. I had the schedule I wanted, and discussed it with the pediatrician to make sure he did not see any issues with it, but in each visit the nurses were confused as to which vaccines he was supposed to take and which he wasn’t and I had to be very careful to make sure he was getting the right vaccine at the right time.
My family is not very high risk for stds etc… neither of us were promiscuous before marriage, my husband is faithful (and we work from home and are hardly ever out of each other’s sight ), no drugs in our house, etc. so measures that are meant for people living a different lifestyle may be things we will evaluate to decide whether they would be beneficial for us or not. And we always discuss it with our providers in case there is something we are missing.

I also agree with the need to discuss and evaluate the impact on future children. I always ask my OB about this regarding any issues that may come up etc, and she is aware of my beliefs and my “lifestyle”. A lot of times the solutions medical professionals have for issues (and I am not just talking about OB’s) are based on the assumption that the woman will be on birth control at some point soon, and that the periods of time in which she will be conceiving/pregnant are limited and calculated.

 

[babochka]

I disagree. I think it is okay to be counter-cultural for the sake of truth. I don’t think it’s wise or intellectually honest to be counter-cultural for the sake of being counter-cultural.** I think there is a high risk of cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s own face. **Think of various groups of extremists who try to go around being counter-cultural. It seems they only are seeking attention or to offend others. If a person has a good reason to do something, then it doesn’t matter if it is counter-cultural or not.

You have a point there.

 

[KellyPalmer]

Amen! This is actually what led me down this path in the first place. I was (and am) a pretty “go along to get along” type of person. I obediently checked myself into the hospital for an induction because I had crossed the “magic number” of 41 weeks, 4 days. Induction was difficult, but we finally got labor going. After several hours, I had an epidural. 24 hours after I checked in, my son was delivered by c-section. They said that he was too big for my body. Recovery was challenging, but I had a husband at home for several weeks, and it progressed normally. I’ll never know if my c-section was actually necessary, but it was a very difficult birth for me, emotionally. My 3 day hospital stay was the least restful time I have ever had in my life. I have a newborn baby who wants to nurse around the clock. Just when I get a snippet of sleep, the nurse comes in to check on me. She leaves, but 20 minutes later the baby’s nurse needs to check on him. This repeats itself hourly. They expect me to keep track to the minute of every second this baby nurses, and on which side!

My path to radicalism started 11 months later when I conceived my 2nd child. I wanted to avoid another c-section at all costs. That I would attempt a vbac was a given for me. I wanted more children and I knew that multiple c-sections increase the risk for all sorts of complications. I started to learn about the “cascade of interventions” that contribute to our astronomical c-section rate of 30% in this country. Do you really believe that 30% of women cannot deliver their babies safely in the way that God intended? My 2nd baby was a hospital vbac. I was again induced, because my babies like to hang around. I was against the induction, but my doctor was adamant, so I gave in. I did not have an epidural, though I asked for one. The anesthesiologist was busy in an emergency c-section of triplets. My daughter was a full pound larger than the baby they told me was too big. It was a good experience. I still didn’t get any rest in the hospital, but I only stayed for one day.

Ok, this is too long for CAF, but I can’t shorten it, so I’m going to continue in the next post.

Thank you for sharing your births with us <3.

 

[Allegra]

Why do you feel homebirth is “getting on without” something? It is such a rich experience with benefits for the whole family!

This is the direct quote. You can read it for yourself. I think the problem here is that you have gone beyond rationally justifying your position to the point that you consider homebirthing part of who you are. (Not unlike some homosexuals define themselves by their life choices.) Anything anyone says against it will be seen by you as a direct insult.

 

[babochka]

Not necessarily, it can very well point you in the opposite direction (at least it did for me) . Birthing is a topic of great interest for me (lol, I am getting ready to have my 6th in less than 8.5 yrs), but the research I have done has not led me to choose homebirthing. I do understand that for some mothers the research may lead them in that direction, but for others it may lead them to the hospital despite the negative aspects that can be included (there are pros and cons for each option). I wouldn’t consider this a “source”, but for example, watching ‘The Business of Being Born’ actually served as a reinforcement of my decision to birth in a hospital environment.

I do agree, though, that it is important to educate ourselves regardless of the route we take. I have been able to address things with my OB that I would have never thought of doing had I not read about it previously. My OB is very laid back but very skilled (for example, she used a special maneuver to help deliver my 11 lb 10 oz baby vaginally). She has no problem with any deviations to the norms that I may bring up, but one thing to keep in mind is that standardized procedure often does help “cover all bases” and minimize errors. I have noticed that, at least in locations where there are more patients to track, if when we do deviate from “regular procedure” we are introducing a variable that could affect our care. We need to track our care to make sure we get the care we want. For example, when I delayed vaccination with my last baby, the hospital had no problem with it and was able to conform to my wishes, but when we got to his pediatrician it was very confusing for them. I had the schedule I wanted, and discussed it with the pediatrician to make sure he did not see any issues with it, but in each visit the nurses were confused as to which vaccines he was supposed to take and which he wasn’t and I had to be very careful to make sure he was getting the right vaccine at the right time.
My family is not very high risk for stds etc… neither of us were promiscuous before marriage, my husband is faithful (and we work from home and are hardly ever out of each other’s sight ), no drugs in our house, etc. so measures that are meant for people living a different lifestyle may be things we will evaluate to decide whether they would be beneficial for us or not. And we always discuss it with our providers in case there is something we are missing.

I also agree with the need to discuss and evaluate the impact on future children. I always ask my OB about this regarding any issues that may come up etc, and she is aware of my beliefs and my “lifestyle”. A lot of times the solutions medical professionals have for issues (and I am not just talking about OB’s) are based on the assumption that the woman will be on birth control at some point soon, and that the periods of time in which she will be conceiving/pregnant are limited and calculated.

It sounds like you have a great OB. I have finally found one, but it looks like my childbearing days are behind me, anyway. I wish that everyone had these choices. I wish the system didn’t put moms between a rock and a hard place, being in a position in which the only way to have the care they believe is important is in a out-of-hospital birth. In my 5 births, my experiences have been vastly different, even in the same hospitals. I have to say, I believe that hospitals are responding and improving.

When I had my first baby, just 11 years ago, some books on childbirth still warned about hospitals that shaved every mother and gave her an enema. We would consider a hospital that still did that to be operating in the dark ages! Maybe someday we’ll get to the point where we consider many current hospital procedures in the same light. I wish the two sides could work together. How much better would it be for mothers planning a birth at home and their midwives to have a respectful and collaborative relationship with doctors? Would that not work toward the goal of safer births overall?

 

[KellyPalmer]

This is the direct quote. You can read it for yourself. I think the problem here is that you have gone beyond rationally justifying your position to the point that you consider homebirthing part of who you are. (Not unlike some homosexuals define themselves by their life choices.) Anything anyone says against it will be seen by you as a direct insult.

That’s not at all what you said she asked you. Are you even reading it?

 

[Xantippe]

ExGratia said:

“It’s rather telling that those who support homebirth (whether they themselves would have one or not) have not made any attacks or jumped to ridiculous statements like your above fictitious quote, while the stridently anti-home birth have tried to make anyone who believes there are unnecessary interventions in some situations out to be crazy, selfish, or snobs. I am sorry that you, Xantippe, are so fearful. But your posts come across as venomous, and none of us have hurt you.”

That’s what I sound like when I’m being nice! (And by the way, you’re mixing up posters. I didn’t say anything about homebirth being selfish or snobbish.)

It’s just weird for Catholics to be into homebirth and to think of it as a Catholic thing, since we as a religious group have built hundreds of beautiful shiny hospitals for women to safely birth in. It’s also weird to think of hospital birth as being this conspiracy against women, because women loved hospital birth when it first became possible. I’ve read a couple of early 20th century memoirs (The Egg and I and Cheaper by the Dozen) where it was clear that the mothers of the time thought that hospital birth was an amazing invention and their big chance to have a nice vacation away from family responsibilities. I think of the hospital the same way, myself–it’s such a beautiful opportunity to hang out with the baby without being pounced on by older children, chores and mundane household responsibilities. It’s so easy for new mothers to exhaust themselves. At the hospital, they take care of the laundry, they know how to swaddle, they take the baby away to the nursery between night feedings, they have hot and cold running nurses, lactation consultants and doctors–its amazing!

 

[KellyPalmer]

I think most people would agree that making an important decision based even in part on wanting to be counter cultural is being snobbish. That was my point and I’m glad you agree with it. You were the one who brought up the importance of being counter cultural in the first place. I really don’t care if something is counter cultural or not. It has zero baring on whether it’s a good idea or not.

She didn’t bring up the importance of being counter cultural. She just said its not a bad thing. You are once again painting a false caricature. Can the straw man arguments please end now?

Additionally, it’s important to note that women were forced into hospital for birth, against their wishes (see scholarly books listed up-thread). When birth was moved to hospital, maternal and fetal deaths rose sharply. Today, the US compares poorly against other developed nations for full term birth outcomes.

 

[Allegra]

How many women in this thread would decline a c-section in this situation? Of course, most women, homebirthing or not, would choose the c-section. But what if the doctor says, for example, “If you have a vbac, there’s about .05 percent chance your uterus could rupture during labor. Most ruptures are no more than a slight parting of the scar, but they are sometimes catastrophic and can lead to the death of your baby. Of course, rupture could also occur during your 3rd trimester, before labor has begun. If you elect to have a c-section, your risks include infection, excessive blood loss, negative reaction to anesthesia. While rare, a c-section can also lead to your death.” Would that be as clear a decision?

Maternal death rates in the U.S are rising. They have doubled in the last 20 years, as have seriously life-threatening complications. These are not always easy, uncomplicated decisions.

Unfortunately, last minute decisions like that are not made by a mind that is in peak condition. The woman is in pain, exhausted, probably scared, etc. Keep in mind my friend who had to be told by THREE doctors, months in advance, that she should not expect to deliver vaginally before she accepted it and that when she and her husband weren’t in the throws of labor! Even so, you would think she had lost the baby the way she grieved over it.

Sometimes a rupture is a tiny tear that is easily healed. Sometimes a rupture is a series of major surgeries plus a year of physical therapy. Sometimes a rupture is even life threatening blood loss and future loss of a baby due to an damaged cervix. The trick is to find a professional you trust (prefereably from a practice you trust in case your specific doctor can’t be there in time) who you believe is competant to figure out the real risk and tell you the truth regardless of what you want, what your husband feels, what your insurance would like to pay, what the pharmacutical companies are pushing, or what your mom read on the internet.

 

[KellyPalmer]

ExGratia said:

“It’s rather telling that those who support homebirth (whether they themselves would have one or not) have not made any attacks or jumped to ridiculous statements like your above fictitious quote, while the stridently anti-home birth have tried to make anyone who believes there are unnecessary interventions in some situations out to be crazy, selfish, or snobs. I am sorry that you, Xantippe, are so fearful. But your posts come across as venomous, and none of us have hurt you.”

That’s what I sound like when I’m being nice! (And by the way, you’re mixing up posters. I didn’t say anything about homebirth being selfish or snobbish.)

It’s just weird for Catholics to be into homebirth and to think of it as a Catholic thing, since we as a religious group have built hundreds of beautiful shiny hospitals for women to safely birth in. It’s also weird to think of hospital birth as being this conspiracy against women, because women loved hospital birth when it first became possible. I’ve read a couple of early 20th century memoirs (The Egg and I and Cheaper by the Dozen) where it was clear that the mothers of the time thought that hospital birth was an amazing invention and their big chance to have a nice vacation away from family responsibilities. I think of the hospital the same way, myself–it’s such a beautiful opportunity to hang out with the baby without being pounced on by older children, chores and mundane household responsibilities. It’s so easy for new mothers to exhaust themselves. At the hospital, they take care of the laundry, they know how to swaddle, they take the baby away to the nursery between night feedings, they have hot and cold running nurses, lactation consultants and doctors–its amazing!

Catholics built hospitals for the sick, not the pregnant. Hospitals are sick houses. In fact, one of the risks of hospital birth is a 5% chance of acquiring a hospital borne infection. I challenge you to read even one of the scholarly books on the history of childbirth and you will drop the false notion you’ve come to beleive from cheaper by the dozen. I think you woul really understand us if you had a handle on the history here. Just a warning – you will be shocked at what women and babies went through.

 

[babochka]

ExGratia said:

“It’s rather telling that those who support homebirth (whether they themselves would have one or not) have not made any attacks or jumped to ridiculous statements like your above fictitious quote, while the stridently anti-home birth have tried to make anyone who believes there are unnecessary interventions in some situations out to be crazy, selfish, or snobs. I am sorry that you, Xantippe, are so fearful. But your posts come across as venomous, and none of us have hurt you.”

That’s what I sound like when I’m being nice! (And by the way, you’re mixing up posters. I didn’t say anything about homebirth being selfish or snobbish.)

It’s just weird for Catholics to be into homebirth and to think of it as a Catholic thing, since we as a religious group have built hundreds of beautiful shiny hospitals for women to safely birth in. It’s also weird to think of hospital birth as being this conspiracy against women, because women loved hospital birth when it first became possible. I’ve read a couple of early 20th century memoirs (The Egg and I and Cheaper by the Dozen) where it was clear that the mothers of the time thought that hospital birth was an amazing invention and their big chance to have a nice vacation away from family responsibilities. I think of the hospital the same way, myself–it’s such a beautiful opportunity to hang out with the baby without being pounced on by older children, chores and mundane household responsibilities. It’s so easy for new mothers to exhaust themselves. At the hospital, they take care of the laundry, they know how to swaddle, they take the baby away to the nursery between night feedings, they have hot and cold running nurses, lactation consultants and doctors–its amazing!

There was a time when medical science had women convinced that formula feeding was better than breastfeeding, too. I’m not knocking those who choose to formula feed their babies. I do understand that formula feeding provides adequate nutrition, but we do now understand that feeding our children in the way that we were designed to be fed has innumerable benefits to mother and child that cannot be replicated by formula. My point is that many women were convinced that breastfeeding was low-class and only mothers who couldn’t afford to feed formula would breastfeed. Perhaps a similar cultural phenomenon was going on at the time? Only poor women “had” to have their babies at home? And back then, they kept you in the hospital for a week for a vaginal birth, 2 weeks for a c-section.

For my last birth, I did choose to stay 4 days, even though the doctor was willing to send me home after 3. Hospitals here don’t take the babies away to the nursery unless the mother requests it. As you might guess, I would not allow it. I wanted my babies with me.

 

[babochka]

Sometimes a rupture is a tiny tear that is easily healed. Sometimes a rupture is a series of major surgeries plus a year of physical therapy. Sometimes a rupture is even life threatening blood loss and future loss of a baby due to an damaged cervix. The trick is to find a professional you trust (prefereably from a practice you trust in case your specific doctor can’t be there in time) who you believe is competant to figure out the real risk and tell you the truth regardless of what you want, what your husband feels, what your insurance would like to pay, what the pharmacutical companies are pushing, or what your mom read on the internet.

Absolutely, and then you, the patient, make the decision based on the best information that you have been able to gather. I wonder if you’re assuming that any competent doctor would never advise a woman that it is safe to have a home birth, let alone a home vbac? Not every doctor will tell you the same thing. I had one doctor tell me that I shouldn’t have any more children. That was two children ago. I’m glad I listened to the doctors who believed that it was safe, and to myself. Doctors are not without their own bias. Some doctors believe that 2 children is plenty, and there is no need to take any risk of future births. Why not just tie your tubes after your 2nd c-section, then you won’t need to worry about possible complications with multiple c-sections? Those doctors do not share my worldview. It was much better for me when I found a doctor who respected my faith and convictions. Some would say that the doctor who supported me in having a 5th baby and 4th c-section was biased in giving the advice that she did. These are just such complex and personal decision and I think we should offer more support and encouragement to women for whatever decision they make. (I haven’t always been of this opinion, by the way. I used to be very judgmental about other women’s choices, particularly with elective c-sections. God has, perhaps, gifted me with 4 c-sections of my own to help me get over my judgmentalism.)

 

[Allegra]

She didn’t bring up the importance of being counter cultural. She just said its not a bad thing. You are once again painting a false caricature. Can the straw man arguments please end now?

Additionally, it’s important to note that women were forced into hospital for birth, against their wishes (see scholarly books listed up-thread). When birth was moved to hospital, maternal and fetal deaths rose sharply. Today, the US compares poorly against other developed nations for full term birth outcomes.

How can she say it’s not a bad thing without bringing it up?

That makes no sense.

She brought it up, she declared it a desirable thing, and she concluded that because homebirth was counter-cultural that was evidence that it was also good. I disagree and I still disagree. Whether or not something is counter-cultural doesn’t have to do with it being good or not. I do many things that are counter-cultural, but I don’t do them because they are counter-cultural. Again, that’s would make me a snob.

Even if it should happen to be true that some women somewhere were forced to give birth in hospitals, the fact remains that I am not going to be forced and even if I was I wouldn’t try to beat the system out of spite. (in this case, at any rate, there’s too much at stake.)

The hospital I am going to has an excellent record and has for over three decades been affectionatively referred to by locals as “the baby factory” due to its award winning maternity hospital. My doctor is prolife, napro trained, and his practice spans three generations and is considered one of the best in the country. Why should I forgo these conditions because others in the US have to deal with less than ideal conditions? Out of solidarity? I don’t get it.