Homeschoolers forced into CCD for First Holy Eucharist

[leonie]

To provide a program for a mass audience, you have to try to address the needs of the majority. CCD is aimed at public school kids getting little catechesis at home.

I wonder if a sacramental prep program can be more flexible to meet the needs of kids in different places. I’m just brainstorming. But, maybe a variety of six week programs could be offered at different levels on different topics.

For example, I wouldn’t take my child to a class to learn the basic prayers and sign of the cross and beginning faith facts, but I would love to take them on a bus tour of area churches–like a treasure hunt in which they go to each church and find the parts of the church and learn a little history of each parish.

Just thinking how parish catechesis can meet the needs of kids at different levels.

I know a parish that has a points type program for their faith formation. Different activities (including home study) count for a certain number of points.

Btw, homeschooled kids aren’t the only kids bored in ccd. I had a 7th grader ccd student from a devout family who was so far ahead of the other kids, it was silly for her to be in the class with kids who didn’t know a thing about purgatory, hadn’t been to confession since 2nd grade, had never heard of venial/mortal sin, and didn’t know basic Bible stories like the Passover…

 

[Learning123]

I have now seen several excerpts from Canon Law and various encyclicals that support the idea that the parents choose how/where/when to teach and the priest or other delegate decides if it has been successful.

Let me stress I’m not being sarcastic…
Are there excerpts from Canon Law or encyclicals to support the idea that formation for sacraments should happen at the parish? I’m not talking about “by extension” one would reason that this is so. I’m not talking about general statements of the need to be in community–there are many opportunities for this in every parish of which I’ve been a member. I understand that those who feel inclined to participate in CCD might not have these just rolling off their tongue. (Whereas those who prefer to take on formation mainly at home are more used to knowing these tidbits and having them ready.) Perhaps there is someone out there who had their mind changed towards the need to participate in CCD by reading such passages. If you’re out there, please share.

God Bless.

 

[shannyk]

To provide a program for a mass audience, you have to try to address the needs of the majority. CCD is aimed at public school kids getting little catechesis at home.

Leonie, I have to take issue with this part of your post as well as the jist of the OP’s post.

CCD is for children not enrolled in Catholic school, not for public school children specifically. The OP’s post said that her pastor said

In our brief discussion he stated (I’m paraphrasing here) 1. that the diocese requests the child attend parish school or CCD;

 

[leonie]

Leonie, I have to take issue with this part of your post as well as the jist of the OP’s post.

 

[leonie]

p.s. Shanny, your kids probably don’t belong in ccd, either. And, I’m very glad that you are teaching religion at home. I wish all parents did. I wish my parents had done it. I actually would like to see a move to this type of program.

familyformation.net/ForParishesHowItWorks.asp

What’s Schoenstadt?

 

[EasterJoy]

I have now seen several excerpts from Canon Law and various encyclicals that support the idea that the parents choose how/where/when to teach and the priest or other delegate decides if it has been successful.

Let me stress I’m not being sarcastic…
Are there excerpts from Canon Law or encyclicals to support the idea that formation for sacraments should happen at the parish? I’m not talking about “by extension” one would reason that this is so. I’m not talking about general statements of the need to be in community–there are many opportunities for this in every parish of which I’ve been a member. I understand that those who feel inclined to participate in CCD might not have these just rolling off their tongue. (Whereas those who prefer to take on formation mainly at home are more used to knowing these tidbits and having them ready.) Perhaps there is someone out there who had their mind changed towards the need to participate in CCD by reading such passages. If you’re out there, please share.

God Bless.

I think there is a more practical approach. Your pastor is the new guy. Whatever he does now, he’s going to live with for a long time. Start by realizing that he sees you not as one family, but as a possible precedent that could go on to make his future as a pastor either better or worse. Also, he has a past of his own. His experience with home schoolers elsewhere may have given him some prejudices. It isn’t the cases that work that make an impression, after all. It is the disasters that make an impression on people.

My impression is that your pastor said he doesn’t want to be in the business of making exceptions to what the diocese has laid down. He doesn’t say that nobody should be an exception. This may be your “in”.

Tell him that while this is issue is very important to you, you can accept that he may not have any extra time to devote to it, considering the administrative burden put on pastors these days. Nevertheless, you have already chosen a Catholic school curriculum that you are satisfied meets or even exceeds everything required by the parish school. Because of that, you, too, have considerable time constraints that he may appreciate, upon reflection.

Ask him if you were to set the precedent that anybody wanting an exception had to go to the education people at the chancery office directly to make sure all the diocesan standards were being met with your personally-selected program–that is, the people wanting exceptions had to do their own groundwork–if that would suffice. If he hems and haws a bit, you can throw in a willingness to participate in any group activities that take place between the parish school kids and the RE kids…sometimes there are retreats and whatnot. Be willing to meet him a little ways in from any hard line in the sand.

This way, he doesn’t have to deal with “why did they get the exception?” from others whom he does not want to personally decide are above or below par. The burden of proof will be on them to show it, as you did. He meets his responsibility without adding to the burden of work or flak he would expose himself by being more accomodating. If you agree to go to the retreats or whatnot, the other children would have as much exposure to the blessing of your child as they have of other kids in the other parish program. He’s not failed anybody, including his need for enough sleep.

Also realize, though, that it is standard advice to new pastors in some places not to make any major changes until they’ve been in the new parish for a year. Think about it: this simple rule can save a lot of hard feelings. If the old pastor would not allow exceptions, or if his previous mentors taught the new pastor to avoid making exceptions, you may be out of luck, then, a sacrifice to what is otherwise a very prudent course of action.

In that case, ask at the chancery office, anyway. If your child is enrolled in a certifed program, someone there may be willing to attest to that for your pastor. Otherwise, I expect they’ll aim you at a parish that will be more amenable to your situation.

If you didn’t choose a program that your pastor or bishop puts trust in, then you’re in the same boat as the parents with kids in public or non-Catholic private schools. Although not impossible, I bet you’ll not find an encyclical to do the trick for you. It will take some serious heavenly intercession to overcome that. That’s the way it goes.

 

[Joannm]

I think there is a more practical approach. Your pastor is the new guy. Whatever he does now, he’s going to live with for a long time. Start by realizing that he sees you not as one family, but as a possible precedent that could go on to make his future as a pastor either better or worse. Also, he has a past of his own. His experience with home schoolers elsewhere may have given him some prejudices. It isn’t the cases that work that make an impression, after all. It is the disasters that make an impression on people.

My impression is that your pastor said he doesn’t want to be in the business of making exceptions to what the diocese has laid down. He doesn’t say that nobody should be an exception. This may be your “in”.

Tell him that while this is issue is very important to you, you can accept that he may not have any extra time to devote to it, considering the administrative burden put on pastors these days. Nevertheless, you have already chosen a Catholic school curriculum that you are satisfied meets or even exceeds everything required by the parish school. Because of that, you, too, have considerable time constraints that he may appreciate, upon reflection.

Ask him if you were to set the precedent that anybody wanting an exception had to go to the education people at the chancery office directly to make sure all the diocesan standards were being met with your personally-selected program–that is, the people wanting exceptions had to do their own groundwork–if that would suffice. If he hems and haws a bit, you can throw in a willingness to participate in any group activities that take place between the parish school kids and the RE kids…sometimes there are retreats and whatnot. Be willing to meet him a little ways in from any hard line in the sand.

This way, he doesn’t have to deal with “why did they get the exception?” from others whom he does not want to personally decide are above or below par. The burden of proof will be on them to show it, as you did. He meets his responsibility without adding to the burden of work or flak he would expose himself by being more accomodating. If you agree to go to the retreats or whatnot, the other children would have as much exposure to the blessing of your child as they have of other kids in the other parish program. He’s not failed anybody, including his need for enough sleep.

Also realize, though, that it is standard advice to new pastors in some places not to make any major changes until they’ve been in the new parish for a year. Think about it: this simple rule can save a lot of hard feelings. If the old pastor would not allow exceptions, or if his previous mentors taught the new pastor to avoid making exceptions, you may be out of luck, then, a sacrifice to what is otherwise a very prudent course of action.

In that case, ask at the chancery office, anyway. If your child is enrolled in a certifed program, someone there may be willing to attest to that for your pastor. Otherwise, I expect they’ll aim you at a parish that will be more amenable to your situation.

If you didn’t choose a program that your pastor or bishop puts trust in, then you’re in the same boat as the parents with kids in public or non-Catholic private schools. Although not impossible, I bet you’ll not find an encyclical to do the trick for you. It will take some serious heavenly intercession to overcome that. That’s the way it goes.

You make some very good points. In our parish, there are quite a few parents who want to homeschool for religious ed. Our experience has been that, for the most part, this means that they don’t do the work. So I can see the point of the pastor being hesitant about granting requests to homeschool. In our parish, all sacramental prep programs, First COmmunmion and Confirmation, must be done in parish, either in the school or CCD. Those in the school still ahve to participate in some part of the program with the CCD kids. If the pastor makes an exception then more parents make demands for exceptions and many of them aren’t really doing it to homeschool but just to get kids out of CCD. We have one parents who even refuses to have us test the kid because he says he has special needs and can’t deal with answering questions…meanwhile he is not in a special ed classroom and is in several school sports. See the problem here.

This must be a big problem in other parishes as well since our bishop has requred that all sacramental preparation take place in the parish where the children belong. So, if a child goes to a Catholic school in another parish they still have to take part in some preparation in the parish where they live.

 

[maryjk]

This must be a big problem in other parishes as well since our bishop has requred that all sacramental preparation take place in the parish where the children belong. So, if a child goes to a Catholic school in another parish they still have to take part in some preparation in the parish where they live.

Which sounds crazy. They attend a Catholic school all week? And then have to attend CDD? I realize that those under this bishop have no choice, but I wonder why he would make a rule like that.

It sounds like the same way children are treated at public school, mass punishment or zero tolerance policy. One student doesn’t learn or one family doesn’t do the work, and now no one has the opportunity to home school for CCD or count the numerous hours at Catholic school

 

[2HunnyBuns]

Our diocese doesn’t allow homeschooling for CCD unless the child is homebound due to a medical condition. I wasn’t thrilled with what my daughter was learning in her CCD class so I did a few things. First, I began reteaching everything at home and quizzing her throughout the week to make sure she understands the material. Then, I checked on the website for the diocese to make sure she knew everything she was supposed to know for her grade level (the CCD class fell short, so I had to pick up the slack in those areas). And finally, I volunteered to be a catechist for our parish CCD program. So I’d suggest to the homeschooling parents who really don’t want to place their child’s faith formation into the hands of a stranger, to step up and offer to teach their child’s CCD class.

 

[maryjk]

And finally, I volunteered to be a catechist for our parish CCD program. So I’d suggest to the homeschooling parents who really don’t want to place their child’s faith formation into the hands of a stranger, to step up and offer to teach their child’s CCD class.

Grrrrrr. One more person says that homeschooling parents need to step up and teach and I will scream. :banghead::banghead:

Many of us DO teach. Now, I have one child, so I could teach the grade level my son attends. Although that doesn’t help the fact that we have to use the book that we are given.

But what about parents with more than one child? Do they jump from class to class so they can be in every classroom?

 

[Middleman]

Grrrrrr. One more person says that homeschooling parents need to step up and teach and I will scream. :banghead::banghead:

Many of us DO teach. Now, I have one child, so I could teach the grade level my son attends. Although that doesn’t help the fact that we have to use the book that we are given.

But what about parents with more than one child? Do they jump from class to class so they can be in every classroom?

Of course not. You teach one grade, someone else teaches another, that’s how schools work with different classes. Why do you need to personally have to be present while your child is taught, unless you are some sort of helicopter parent? At some point in life you need to entrust your child to the care and concern of other adults.

 

[Joannm]

Which sounds crazy. They attend a Catholic school all week? And then have to attend CDD? I realize that those under this bishop have no choice, but I wonder why he would make a rule like that.

It sounds like the same way children are treated at public school, mass punishment or zero tolerance policy. One student doesn’t learn or one family doesn’t do the work, and now no one has the opportunity to home school for CCD or count the numerous hours at Catholic school

I did not say that the Catholic school kids have to attend CCD. I said they have to attend some part of the preparation. That means they have to go on the retreat with the other children, they have to take part in all the gatherings and meetings, they have to do the required projects and service, attend specific liturgies, do the workbooks, be interviewed, etc.

 

[heathernoel]

I am aghast, really. I am a convert to Catholicism, and can finally understand why many have said converts make the best Catholics.

My children are in CCD. They were in Catholic school, and when DD#1 was to receive her First Communion, there was no parental prep, which I, as an RCIA member, should have gone to. I raised this point.

Now my second daughter is in CCD because we can no longer afford catholic school tuition. There are parent prep classes and meetings, and my daughter has a better understanding of what reconciliation means than my first.

I find it astounding that you want to worship at a church where you are SO unsure of their teachings that you’d prefer to not have your kids in CCD.

 

[ASD]

I find it astounding that you want to worship at a church where you are SO unsure of their teachings that you’d prefer to not have your kids in CCD.

I’m not sure that’s a fair representation of what’s being said. “Want to worship at a church” isn’t exactly how I think of a Catholic’s relationship to the local parish, or the Church itself.

I think this is more accurate:

I don’t want illicit innovation or doctrinal nonsense imposed on me or my family at our local parish.

1. • In the first place, what they’re pushing is wrong.
   • In the second place, they don’t have the authority to force people to participate.

1. 
   To me it seems important not to blame the victim here. As I see it,
   • The issue is not the reaction of parents who opt out.
   • The issue is the weak or distorted “faith formation” itself.

   ASD​

   Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[Brendan]

You make some very good points. In our parish, there are quite a few parents who want to homeschool for religious ed. Our experience has been that, for the most part, this means that they don’t do the work. .

The ‘work’ is part of the ‘how’. The ‘how’ is the parent’s responsibility. What the parishes responsibility is, under Canon Law, is to measure the understanding of the canidate.

If the pastor sat down two students, one from the parish program, and one whose parents opted to instruct at home and quized the students. The answersgiven should each reflect the level of understanding about the nature of the Sacrament to be recieved that the Church desires. That is all.

There are no cards to be punched, no ‘mandatory’ retreats or workshops, no required workbooks to fill out. Simply is the level of understanding of the nature of the Sacrament equal to or better than those in the parish program, and of course, the level of understanding required by the Church. And in the case of the Church, that requirement is actually pretty low for both Communion and Confirmation, namely the level of understanding common to a 7 year old.

Anything more is beyond the authority of parish or bishop to mandate.

 

[leonie]

Here’s a partial list of my 3rd graders didn’t know when they entered my ccd classroom last year.

What the pope is. What the apostles are. Who the pope is. Who the first pope was. Who the apostles were. What Grace is. What sacraments are. How many sacraments there are.

Some of them also didn’t know.

That Jesus died and rose from the dead.

None of them knew.

The story of Adam and Eve. The stories of Abraham, Joseph, Moses, David and Goliath.

The ten commandments. The definition of sin. the difference between mortal and venial sin.

Of course, these are little guys, so I would expect that some things would slip by them. Here’s a list of what a former class of 7th grade ccd kids didn’t know. I did have one student who knew all this. Her mom has ten kids, is a daily communicant, and runs our Adoration Chapel.

The rest didn’t know:

purgatory, mortal/venial sin, what the seven sacraments were, the story of passover, what the Incarnation means, what liturgical colors mean, how the church divides the liturgical year to name a few basics. Almost all hadn’t been to confession since 2nd grade. In fact, when I made the mistake of announcing that we would be doing that the following week, only 4 students came to class that next week.

If a teacher is teaching a this level of basics to bring the kids up to speed, then a child who knows the basics isn’t going to get anything out of it.

An analogy: would you want your child who has been reading since kindergarten in a class with kids who are just learning their abcs? Wouldn’t you be concerned that not only would your child be bored, he might learn to hate school and the subject of reading?

 

[Joannm]

The ‘work’ is part of the ‘how’. The ‘how’ is the parent’s responsibility. What the parishes responsibility is, under Canon Law, is to measure the understanding of the canidate.

If the pastor sat down two students, one from the parish program, and one whose parents opted to instruct at home and quized the students. The answersgiven should each reflect the level of understanding about the nature of the Sacrament to be recieved that the Church desires. That is all.

There are no cards to be punched, no ‘mandatory’ retreats or workshops, no required workbooks to fill out. Simply is the level of understanding of the nature of the Sacrament equal to or better than those in the parish program, and of course, the level of understanding required by the Church. And in the case of the Church, that requirement is actually pretty low for both Communion and Confirmation, namely the level of understanding common to a 7 year old.

Anything more is beyond the authority of parish or bishop to mandate.

If the bishop in our diocese mandates such things, then are you saying it is perfectly OK to disobey him? We have 250 kids in our first communion program and 180 preparing for confirmation. This is common in most parishes in our diocese. There is no way a pastor can interview all those kids to see if they have achieved the desired level on preparation. The workbooks and retreat and required meetings for parents and students seems to be the best way to get some assurance of adequate preparation.

 

[CDNowak]

If the bishop in our diocese mandates such things, then are you saying it is perfectly OK to disobey him? We have 250 kids in our first communion program and 180 preparing for confirmation. This is common in most parishes in our diocese. There is no way a pastor can interview all those kids to see if they have achieved the desired level on preparation. The workbooks and retreat and required meetings for parents and students seems to be the best way to get some assurance of adequate preparation.

We are saying that the Vatican has said that the bishop cannot mandate the programs formerly known as CCD. Go read my posts with the canonical case earlier in the thread.

---

BTW, after the workbooks and retreats are done, how many of those children are at Sunday Mass?

 

[mlchance]

If the bishop in our diocese mandates such things, then are you saying it is perfectly OK to disobey him?

This isn’t about disobedience. It’s about people on both sides of the issue respecting what the Church says. CCD programs are not mandatory; lack of participation in such a program is not sufficient basis to deny someone a sacrament.

We have 250 kids in our first communion program and 180 preparing for confirmation. This is common in most parishes in our diocese. There is no way a pastor can interview all those kids to see if they have achieved the desired level on preparation.

I bet he could if he really wanted to. It’s amazing what people can accomplish when they really want to. There’s no assistant pastor, no deacons, and no DRE to help? I attend one of the smallest parishes in my archdiocese, and we’ve got one pastor, one DRE, and two deacons.

The workbooks and retreat and required meetings for parents and students seems to be the best way to get some assurance of adequate preparation.

Workbooks, retreats, and parent meetings are a poor substitute for hands-on, direct assessment, even though they’re still useful. Imagine a kid’s math teacher basing his assessment of math skills on nothing more than a workbook, an overnight math camp, and a few meetings. Any teacher who tried this would lose his job, and isn’t religious education more important than math? If so, then why accept just “some assurance of adequate preparation”?

I teach CCE to my own children at home by agreement with my pastor and DRE. If I take my kids on retreat and monitor their workbooks, I’ve accomplished 2/3 of the assessment you describe all on my own. I can easily arrange a meeting between my pastor and my family. That handles the other third.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Graubo3]

At some point in life you need to entrust your child to the care and concern of other adults.

Why?

And besides you, who says so?

What age is best for the child? An infant right after a maternity leave?

In a nutshell, you very well have stated a fundamental reason why many homeschool.

Can those “other adults” love that child more than a parent?

Peace, Graubo