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CDNowak
Guest
Can I ask you which definition of norm you are using here? And if you mean a legal norm (‘ought’ as opposed to ‘is’), where is this established?
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jmcrae
Guest
“Inconvenient” is something of an understatement. Where are you going to find the money to pay for the 15 hours of staff time? How are you going to justify to the Finance Committee, that by canceling the Sacramental Preparation program and sending everyone home to homeschool their kids, it now costs 750% more than it did when you had a staff member teaching the kids for two hours (4 30-minute segments)?
What are they supposed to put in their report to the Bishop? “We cancelled Sacramental Prep and spent 750% more on wages re: Sacramental Prep, because of the testing requirements.”
The Bishop would send it back, tell them they are SOL, and tell them to put the Sacramental Prep program back in place, pronto, please, or don’t expect any funding at all from this office; we will shut down your parish before we will pay you 750% more for a program that you have cancelled.
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Brendan
Guest
Father, did you read the dubium I posted just a little while ago?
It’s post 206
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5941294&postcount=206
I’d like to hear your response to the questions about it.
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Brendan
Guest
Other parishes, including my own, manage it. In fact, they have to, the Church demands it.
Actually, the interview part is the ONLY thing it demands from the parish, so it would be negligent to ignore it.
And do you really pay your Cathechists? We don’t they are volunteers.
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CDNowak
Guest
I believe priests are salaried, many parishes have DRE’s who currently work 20+ hrs/ week, plus volunteers who are already giving countless hours. Not to mention the major decrease in liability for parishes without schools, material costs… I’m seeing the average parish saving, not necessarily a lot, but certainly not huge increases.
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leonie
Guest
Okay, so, we can’t trust parents to teach their kids the faith.
Certainly, we should inconvenience and burden families rather than anyone on the parish staff or any volunteers in faith formation.
It is important that we know what is being taught.
It is not important to know if the child actually learns it.
We shouldn’t make any exceptions or deal with individual needs because then everyone might want their individual needs considered.
It is okay if kids are bored or taught poorly because it’s important that all the kids have the experience as a community.
I think I understand now.
Certainly, we should inconvenience and burden families rather than anyone on the parish staff or any volunteers in faith formation.
It is important that we know what is being taught.
It is not important to know if the child actually learns it.
We shouldn’t make any exceptions or deal with individual needs because then everyone might want their individual needs considered.
It is okay if kids are bored or taught poorly because it’s important that all the kids have the experience as a community.
I think I understand now.
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Brendan
Guest
And the solution to a huge influx of homeschoolers need interviews should be pretty evident.
There have been plenty of calls for the homeschooling parents to teach CCD instead. While certainly possible, it might not work in that homeschooling parents might not have the charism for classroom teaching a dozen or two kids.
But each homeschooling parent, pretty much by defition, has developed the charism for individual testing.
So ask one or two of the homeschooling parents to conduct the interviews.
This way, everyone gets to operate within their God given charisms.
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jmcrae
Guest
It’s a much shorter interview if the priest already knows which course the kids took, though - for example, it wouldn’t be necessary to make sure they know the story of the lost sheep and the prodigal son, because he already knows that they heard it in the parish class, but he (or more likely the parish delegate) would have to ask each of the home-schooled kids to retell those stories, to make sure they studied them.
We have a Coordinator of Preparation for the Sacraments - she sets everything up, recruits the volunteers, does all the advertising, etc. She is the one responsible for making sure all the kids cover the same basic material.
As I mentioned up-thread, no one would prevent the parents from adding extra material at home; in fact, this is encouraged.
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leonie
Guest
But, actually, you only know that the story was taught. Is there an assessment to see if the ccd students learned it?
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Brendan
Guest
In our parish, the parish Deacon interviews the canidates for a Sacrament. This is true if they went throught the parish program or if they were homeschooled.
This is true, not just for FHC or Confirmation, but Baptism, First Confession and Marriage as well. He even talks to any of the men from the parish that are going into the seminary (we have 5 in there right now).
I don’t think he’s interviewed anyone for Annointing yet, but I won’t put it past him
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CDNowak
Guest
I haven’t seen anyone object to sharing what program they’re using with the priest, so really, enough of the straw men.
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jmcrae
Guest
That happens in the classroom at the time, when the teacher does the “understanding” portion of the lesson. If a child is having trouble understanding, it’s dealt with immediately. If all the children are having trouble understanding, then the teacher tries a different teaching method. The children also help each other. Sometimes, children understand better when another child is explaining it to them.
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Brendan
Guest
So where does the 750% increase come into play then??
If everyone left the CCD program to homeschool, then the Coordinator simply needs to recrute interviewers instead of catechists.
Do you really think that it would take that much more of her time to do so?
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jmcrae
Guest
There is quite a difference between asking a volunteer to help out for half an hour a week for four weeks, versus 15 hours just before the children are to receive the Sacrament - most volunteers are happy to do the first, but most of them work during the day and have families to care for, and wouldn’t be available for a 15-hour stint. Anything she can’t find volunteers for, she does herself.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Home schoolers, I think the message here is that you are going to have to contend as a group with all the foot-dragging and excuses from your bishops and pastors that you got from your states, school districts, and state teacher’s unions. Nobody is going to take you seriously until you wear them down, like that persistent old widow that finally got the judge to find in her favor, even though that particular judge was corrupt. If she can win with her corrupt judge, surely you can win with bishops who actually care about you and your children.
So, it is time to do it all over again: gather up all your facts, creativity, senses of humor, persistence, and above all, lots of prayer, and get 'er done. You are able to teach your children at home because of the labors of those who made it possible for you. May God send you both strength and tireless allies within the system, as He did for them. Then others will follow in the Church who will benefit from your labors.
*“Two are better than one: they get a good wage for their labor.
If the one falls, the other will lift up his companion.
Woe to the solitary man! For if he should fall, he has no one to lift him up.
So also, if two sleep together, they keep each other warm.
How can one alone keep warm?
Where a lone man be overcome, two together can resist.
A three-ply cord is not easily broken.” *Eccl. 4:9-12
Go for it, but don’t go for it alone! Make allies for yourself from among those allied with you in faith. Be patient, but don’t take “no” for an answer.
Always be respectful, using God’s means, remembering that you speak not with adversaries, but with shepherds and fathers given to you by God, who care for you and have sacrificed themselves for you but who have not yet come to see your need and your abilities. The first ones you win over, if you do it in God’s way, will become your best allies. Always keep that in mind! Do not aim just to win your cause, then. Aim to win their hearts.
Good luck, and God bless you!
So, it is time to do it all over again: gather up all your facts, creativity, senses of humor, persistence, and above all, lots of prayer, and get 'er done. You are able to teach your children at home because of the labors of those who made it possible for you. May God send you both strength and tireless allies within the system, as He did for them. Then others will follow in the Church who will benefit from your labors.
*“Two are better than one: they get a good wage for their labor.
If the one falls, the other will lift up his companion.
Woe to the solitary man! For if he should fall, he has no one to lift him up.
So also, if two sleep together, they keep each other warm.
How can one alone keep warm?
Where a lone man be overcome, two together can resist.
A three-ply cord is not easily broken.” *Eccl. 4:9-12
Go for it, but don’t go for it alone! Make allies for yourself from among those allied with you in faith. Be patient, but don’t take “no” for an answer.
Always be respectful, using God’s means, remembering that you speak not with adversaries, but with shepherds and fathers given to you by God, who care for you and have sacrificed themselves for you but who have not yet come to see your need and your abilities. The first ones you win over, if you do it in God’s way, will become your best allies. Always keep that in mind! Do not aim just to win your cause, then. Aim to win their hearts.
Good luck, and God bless you!
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PaulinVA
Guest
I just have to say that I am sick and tired of a minority of people asserting their “rights” and demanding that everyone else accommodate them. It’s happening in the secular sphere, and now it’s happening in the Church as well. Flame all you want, I’ve got the asbestos gloves on.
I don’t know. I’m really turned off by the direction this discussion has taken.
I don’t know. I’m really turned off by the direction this discussion has taken.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Don’t throw out the jar because you can’t get the lid off. Let someone else have a crack at it until it opens. If it is volunteers or additional resources that are needed, at least give the home schoolers the opportunity to find them.
Most parents, for instance, have to pay an annual materials and administration fee of $25 or so to send their kids to RE in the first place, if they are able to afford it. The parish could ask for the same money from home schoolers, too, and pay for interviewers out of the same pot used to run the rest of the program. Surely it won’t cost more than $25 per child to get someone to test whether second graders have the basic knowledge needed to be prepared for First Holy Communion. So that is one possible solution.
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bethndanny
Guest
Jmcrae, I think that you are thinking that a simple interview takes much longer than it actually does. Also, in our CCD program all children are interviewed by the priest, DRE, or other volunteer, regardless of how they go through their sacrament prep. As far as knowing if all kids in CCD understood the lesson… Do you really believe that the one teacher is capable of ensuring that every student in a class the size you’re speaking of understands the lesson? Children manage to get through regular school classes and not learn, how much more would that be the case if they were only taught once a week? Why on earth would a home schooler need to re tell the story of the Prodigal son when each and every CCD student does not need to? Because maybe that home schooler didn’t go over it? Maybe that CCD teacher went over it too quickly, or skipped it all together because s/he didn’t have time that day, or maybe a kid wasn’t paying attention. My kids used to go to children’s mass, until they told me that the teacher (incidentally this woman also taught CCD) told them that Mary did “dirty” things and was a sinner. They had heard little about Mary Magdalene at home, but knew the Blessed Mother well. Imagine their shock when they thought that the “teacher” told them that our Blessed Mother did “dirty” things! My kids were 5 and 6 at the time. I had to fix what the “teacher” thought that she had properly taught. I’m sure she meant well (although I have reservations about telling a bunch of young children that Mary Magdalene, I’m fairly certain that is who she was referring to, did “dirty” things"), but she can’t be sure that all the children are understanding her the way she means it. My children are quite bright and very capable, I’m fairly certain they were not the only kids to misunderstand. So, why should the children in CCD not be held to the same standards as a home schooled student would be and have to recite the story of the Prodigal son. BTW, both my kids can in fact tell you the story.
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Brendan
Guest
Well, if it’s just a few kids, then it certainly would not be 15 hours. If there are a substantialy number of homeschooled kids, that means that there are a substantial number of homeschool parents to tap to conduct the interviews.
There, problem solved
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bethndanny
Guest
It would seem that the Catholic Church is in direct opposition to what you are saying here. The Church believes this is the role of the PARENTS not CCD.
From the CCC:
The Church has spoken and She has said that it is almost impossible to provide an adequate substitute for parental education with regards to morals and spirituality. It looks like those advocating for mandatory CCD are demanding everyone accommodate them, rather than home schoolers demanding anything. It is incredibly frustrating that people are suggesting that home schoolers are going against the grain here. The Church asks us to do this!
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