Homeschooling will becoming forbidden in France (?)

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@Anicette, is the countryside or cities other than Paris having as many problems?

The clandestine schools should be stopped. That’s not following any of the rules already set out and would have me concerned as well. While I heartily support homeschooling, I also feel that there is a responsibility of government at some level to approve the curriculum and make sure the children are getting a well rounded education. Catholic schools have been very good at this as have most private schools. Some, however are not and need to be addressed whether Muslim, Pentecostal or Jewish! Clandestine groups forming their own little enclaves of homeschooling would be worrisome no matter what religion or ideology!
 
Anicette said:
Maybe it seems strange from the other side of the Atlantic?
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Interesting thread…no it does not seem strange. Much of the controversy surrounding the new US Supreme Court nominee Amy Barret has to do with religious freedoms. Right now our Supreme Court protects these freedoms in big way…religious freedom, education, and even things like homeschooling. A few justices with different views on our Supreme Court and things would change radically.
 
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The whole point of “crypto” marxists is thatcthey don’t announce that they are marxists. They just filter in their poison to the classroom undee the name of a liberal education
 
Mixed feelings on this. I recall another European country in which a refugees would end up clustering and maintaining their own culture apart from the host country. Members of the host country were still viewed as outsiders.

Scenarios in which the two groups must interact better promote integration, and I think that might be the intention behind said restrictions.
 
Annie said:
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Anicette:
Maybe it seems strange from the other side of the Atlantic?
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Unfortunately, not strange enough, having seen some of what happened to homeschooling families in Germany.

It is very sad, and I hope that the government will not continue down this road, especially for the little ones of 2, 3, and 4 years old!
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Germany has always leaned toward authoritarianism, if not outright totalitarianism. The most extreme example, of course, was when the Nazis were in power. Even today, there are neo-Nazis in Germany and elsewhere who would like to see that brand of dictatorship restored. So, it’s no surprise that parental choice and home schooling is targeted and persecuted in Germany.
 
I understand why Muslims in France might wish to homeschool their children. Religious freedom as we know it in the U.S. doesn’t exist in France. The schools are strictly secular, (often all the way down to forbidding Christian students to wear cross necklaces, for example), making it impossible for Muslims students to pray to Mecca during the day. By forbidding homeschooling, they’re effectively closing the door to allowing the practice of Islam, which may have been the intent all along.

The French government could have done what so many U.S. states do, i.e. allow homeschooling with the occasional testing and/or portfolio reviews. But in banning homeschooling altogether, the policy may heighten resentment and - heaven forbid - increase radicalization.

I’ve long argued that religious freedom is really important stuff. When exercised correctly, it protects everybody, including atheists and agnostics.
 
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blackforest said:
Fascinating. When would you say racism ended in the U.S.? July 2, 1964?
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The ‘64 Civil Rights act was certainly a landmark step along the way. So was Brown v Board. There have been many. Legally and institutionally, racism is in America is illegal.
Interracial marriage makes up a significant percentage of marriages.
We recently elected an American black as president, then re-elected him.
There has been an American black on the SCOTUS since 1967.
There is an American black senator from South Carolina!
Most Americans have no issue with neighbors of a different race or ethnicity.

Certainly there is individual racism and racists, from all races. That will always be the case. But the United States is not a racist country.
 
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I think you’ve cited some excellent examples of strides taken in the effort to overcome racism. I cannot go as far as you to say that racism is dead in the U.S. I also don’t wish to derail a thread on homeschooling and parental rights, so I’ll leave it at that for now.
 
blackforest said:
I understand why Muslims in France might wish to homeschool their children. Religious freedom as we know it in the U.S. doesn’t exist in France. The schools are strictly secular, (often all the way down to forbidding Christian students to wear cross necklaces, for example), making it impossible for Muslims students to pray to Mecca during the day. By forbidding homeschooling, they’re effectively closing the door to allowing the practice of Islam, which may have been the intent all along.

The French government could have done what so many U.S. states do, i.e. allow homeschooling with the occasional testing and/or portfolio reviews. But in banning homeschooling altogether, the policy may heighten resentment and - heaven forbid - increase radicalization.

I’ve long argued that religious freedom is really important stuff. When exercised correctly, it protects everybody, including atheists and agnostics.
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I agree. I know atheists that homeschool usually due to living in southern states with terrible schools and teachers tending towards anti science. To an atheist, this is unacceptable. I just read where Tennessee is finally going to suppress the pushing of religion on children…which in my view, should be a given. Since most of the religious there are of the Baptist variety, I imagine many catholic families are relieved as well!

While part of the right to homeschool a child might be religiously motivated, there are plenty of secular arguments for this right of parents as well. When, in the history of any country, has the right to educate ones child not been assumed? Maybe communism wants it but even communist countries in the past assumed this right of parents.

I tend to think France is doing this to tamp down Islamic terrorism and it will bite them in the rear. Forbidding parental rights never goes well in any society.
 
Yes, and France has a history of dealing with “clergy” problems! Now, it’s Islam, not Catholicism. I don’t think anyone really wants another French Revolution to occur but if they don’t watch themselves very carefully, they may get one again! 😱
 
blackforest said:
I think you’ve cited some excellent examples of strides taken in the effort to overcome racism. I cannot go as far as you to say that racism is dead in the U.S.
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Of course, I never said it was dead. I said the US is not a racist country. It is not.
There are racists, but that does not make it a racist country.
blackforest said:
I also don’t wish to derail a thread on homeschooling and parental rights, so I’ll leave it at that for now.
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And on that we seem to agree.
 
@(name removed by moderator),

The djihadist terrorism in France is mostly linked with the context of the Syrian civil war and ISIS. If there was no war, there would be little islamic attacks. - I think.

There is an indirect link with colonisation and decolonisation is what the attacks are often from men (and sometimes women!) whose origins are former colonies- often from Magreb, but not exclusively. That’s logical because these populations are Muslins. The attackers often had been born in France.

But there was some men and women who had gone to Syria or Afghanistan for djihad who were converts. And it’s sad because they were from Catholics families, baptized and cathechised but with no living faith at home. It’s accpetable for Christians families to convert to Islam, rarely the contrary. Also some certainely come from no religion at all.

The djihadists were often petty crime offenders before. There is also a link with prisons because Islam is the first religion in prison. And many conversions or reversions take place here.

But why did you post the reference with the 1945 massacres in Constantinois?
If your argument is that colonisation was in essence a “crime against humanity”, like our president Macron said it in alegeria, I will not followed our thinking.
And much more as a Pied-Noir descendant. My french part ancestors were deported by Napoleon III. It was not a choice.

Of course and grandfather and uncles were always wearing firearms when they go outside when the situation was tensed in Morocco and Algeria in the 1950’s. But it was a need to protect themselves and families. There was always the risk of attack on a train or train station. Others men probbaly did the same. And as far as I know, he never killed someone.

I will point out that it’s thanks to colonization that Africa is now in part Christian. For the french colonies, in the XIXth century, were the republicans were putting a point to persecute Catholics and secularised France in a time where Church were so active in medical field and teaching with congregations, had no problem to sent congregations as missionaries in the colonies. To “civilized” indigenous , to supervised Catholics and create some needed social structures such as dispensaries and schools. They were happy to sent clergy far away for metroples- so us, and recognized the Church was needed in the colonies.
 
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It seems that the colonization was not profitable making for France.

I also know that you are an agnostic, so the fact the Church had grown in others continents, that is now revived the dying European churches will not impress you.
 
Some said that the origin of european colonization was a growth a population that make desirable more “space”. Maybe.

For Ireland, i don’t know all, but it seems that many countries have tend to increase their territories. particularly UK. As they couldn’t extend in continental Europe anymore, Ireland was next door.

I agree, as historians said it, that the British government was directly responsible of deliberate non intervention during the Great starvation. They could have save Irish from dying or emigrate, but they didn’t do. If I am correct, one of the main reason was economic liberalism, the doctrine of non intervention, pushed to the extreme.
 
Thanks you @(name removed by moderator).

yes, laisser-faire capitalism is more or what i want to said. in France, when we speak of liberalism, it’s for economy, not morality.
 
Thanks you @yankeesouth. I hope that your country will continue to protect religious freedom and homeschooling.

From the article you linked:
“Elizabeth Bartholet told Harvard Magazine that it gives parents “authoritarian” control over their kids — and can even expose them to white supremacy and misogyny.”

That’s a main argument of our government. Parents are seen as bad influence if they are full time (even for toddlers and be overpowered and abusive.

The two biggest reasons is to isntituated “republican schools” for all. The president said that this law will be as important as the 1882 school law. The other reason is “gender equality”. They said they take a decision in the field of that importance that has never took since all schools become mixed- for boys and girls in 1969. The’y want to other model for girls or boys.
They said this law is absolutely necessary and historic.

One woman in the governement was also speak when they speak of this project law, to target “white supremacism”. that’s ironical, because it’s geographically and historically incorrect. it’s an american context. we have racism but no white supremacists.

believe me, the more official target may be islamism. they play on the islamophobic feelings of many French, but it will impacted ALL people, not only muslins!

I will made more post tomorrow to answers others.
 
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Anicette said:
That’s a main argument of our government. Parents are seen as bad influence if they are full time (even for toddlers and be overpowered and abusive.
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Right. Because government has always been such a positive influence on young minds. /sarc

I’m curious, is free thought and individuality a French value? Because the end result of banning the right to education your children as you see fit will just be increased homogeneity of thought, which cannot be good for creativity and innovation.
 
redbetta said:
Because government has always been such a positive influence on young minds. /sarc
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I agree.

But they will answer that it’s not the government but all the school influence that is benefical. teachers, friends, collectivity etc. Even if the “educative community” have to follow the national curriculum. To escape that is seen as impossible and the fruit of parents that have " pschological problems" to solve.

During confinement, in medias many experts was speaking of the consequences of confinement and deconfinement. They all said that staying at home -so with your family- all the the time was very damaning for individuals and create a lot of psychiatric and violence.
So having children staying with their family all the time is not seen to be safe, healthy for children and inhibit their choice to make their own friends, to live apart from their parents and make their own educational choices.

Since I started homeschooling I realize how hostiles people and society are to homeschooling in our country. Before I know it is so counter cultural, but I didn’t know there is so hatred until it git into us in the worst manner possible.
redbetta said:
Because the end result of banning the right to education your children as you see fit will just be increased homogeneity of thought, which cannot be good for creativity and innovation.
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I think that it is a good argument!

I presented it to my husband who just answer that our daughter is already very creative and will continue to be in school… pff…

I don’t know what are the effects on homeschooling on a nation. Here, the panels of homeschoolers who are now adults are too small probably to make random studies. And studies on homeschooling in France are almost non-existant. It is very new that it is growing.

It seems to me that they will not fit professionally as others, such as officials. But It is just me who read some testimonies books not looking at studies.

Sainte Thérèse de Lisieux was homeschooled a few years by her sister.
We have some inventors in the past centuries that were homeschooled, but to my knowledge no or few since the XXth century.

But more practically the question of the demographic curb is probably a better indication of creativity and innovation. An aging population is not a lot likely to innove.
 
We can have a debate here!
redbetta said:
I’m curious, is free thought and individuality a French value?
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Free thought: yes, definitively.
We are the country of Les Lumières. Philosophy is teached in high school and may be a cultural exception. For eg, I had 7 hours per week of philosophy in the last high school year. My main subject.

We are thinking a lot, even if as a paradox in school, for officials, in administrative buildings, in politic and even in some places such as beachs religious neutrality is excepted. We can think but without “dogmas” because it goes against free thinking…
As a consequence, I have spent my life to hide my beliefs (without deny them). It can be very detrimental for importants decisions.

The more benefical consequences are that Catholics have develop a logical, rational and humanist thinking. I see the difference when I see on this forum people who answer with only catholic arguments for societal problems (for eg bioethic). So only acceptable for concerned Catholics.

Individuality: I will said not really.

America is a very individualistic country in many aspects.

We have educational, economic, social, familial and healthcare community. We have a more homegenous attitude in public with secularism. Basically we are allowed to do what we want as long as it stay moderate.
For eg, we can wear what we want in school as long as it is appropriate (often there is no rules, but you understand no swimsuit, no barefoot, topless), not over provocative or break secularism such as veil.

Definitely it will much more a problem to wear too much clothes as a muslin in some places than to go around half naked. The last is seen as breaking neutrality, so secularism, so anti-republican and offensive for others people convictions.

But it’s changing.

Last september girls had protested because some schools don’t allow them to too short clothes.

We had an tradition of high reflexion on bioethic and national law that are centered around medically needes treatments and the principle and free and indiponibility of the body and body parts. Yet the last bioethical law has wounded this principles.
According to my friend who worked for Bishops conference, the Church has a reputation of a high and pointed bioethical reflexion. It was recognized by the Governement who ask and wait for her expertise before ant reform discernment. For around a decade, She is still invite to express her view among others points of view, but not as before.
 
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