Homophobic reaction to the abuse crisis discouraging me - what should I do?

[nenabunena]

If they are celibate, that must be all the more incredibly difficult for them since they are surrounded by the sex they are generally attracted to. And I understand the dilemma they are in but it really is a difficult and unique situation compared to the general predicament of the priests. Just think on why the sexual abuse cases done by homosexuals amount to 86.6%, it’s not that SSA are worse people than non-SSA, but the temptation within the priesthood is tenfold for them. If people are angry, I guess they are frustrated, want their Church purified, and want the victims and their families to get justice (these are people who want to serve the Church instead they were abused by people w/in it). People bash the Church for not doing anything but even the general population don’t really want to go after these people because it isn’t PC nor do they want to recognize the problem. How are they different

I mention priesthood because I was addressing the poster who mentioned their many acquaintances.

Although I do wonder if those people intentionally entered the priesthood to destroy the Church, I must imagine that many also entered because they wanted to be chaste, moral, and be holy. But that type of environment and other ‘influences’ can change anyone, and many may enter the priesthood wanting to escape their problems than answering a calling.

Well I’m a heterosexual girl, if I had to sleep with many men in the same room, in intimate locations, or spend 24/7 time with them, I imagine the temptation would be far greater than being allowed to not be with them 24/7 no? I don’t think there is a problem with being friends or bonding with the sex you are attracted to but spending undue amounts with them 24/7 (especially if you are attracted to them) and remaining chaste can be very difficult I would imagine.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

I only ever hear of religious people doing it, specifically Catholics. I’m sure there are homosexually-inclined, non-religious people who disavow the word “gay” as a matter of principle out there, somewhere.

I have yet to come across any, though.

 

[amt1985]

"Thorolfr:

I guess that this is one issue that I disagree with the Catholic Church about. To me, the genes that I was born with along with all the experiences I’ve had in my lifetime have shaped the different aspects of my personality into the person I am today, the fact that blue is my favorite color, that I’m somewhat introverted, that I’m gay, that I love to travel, that I’m a bibliophile, that I don’t care for most team sports, etc. etc. Even the fact that I have ADHD is a part of who I am, that I’m easily distracted and have a difficult time staying organized, or beginning tasks or finishing tasks or getting to appointments on time, etc. If all the many aspects of my personality were removed, then, in my opinion, I would become nothing more than an empty shell.

I couldn’t agree more. You’ve described exactly why I’ve always struggled with this. When you’re told that something that is very much a part of you, that you did not choose, cannot control, and cannot change (no matter how hard you pray for it to change), is somehow “disordered,” it doesn’t do much for one’s sense of worth.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Same.

(12345)

 

[nenabunena]

nenabunena:

Yes. I meant that the 86.6% of the cases were due to homosexuality, while 13.4% was heterosexuality sexual abuse cases.

Again, straight men can rape boys too. Do you mean that 86.6% of the victims were male?

yes (male on male) and i also said straight (male and female) abuse cases was 13.4%. And if they were ‘straight’ men raping boys, they aren’t straight.

 

[phil19034]

mrsdizzyd:

Thorolfr:

Since many of them probably consider their sexual orientation to be an intrinsic or essential part of who they are, the difference between this essential part being disordered and inclining them to do evil things but not the person themselves doesn’t make much sense.

You have to consider church documents in their proper context. In Catholic theology, we are not our inclinations. This distriction is essential.

I guess that this is one issue that I disagree with the Catholic Church about. To me, the genes that I was born with along with all the experiences I’ve had in my lifetime have shaped the different aspects of my personality into the person I am today, the fact that blue is my favorite color, that I’m somewhat introverted, that I’m gay, that I love to travel, that I’m a bibliophile, that I don’t care for most team sports, etc. etc. Even the fact that I have ADHD is a part of who I am, that I’m easily distracted and have a difficult time staying organized, or beginning tasks or finishing tasks or getting to appointments on time, etc. If all the many aspects of my personality were removed, then, in my opinion, I would become nothing more than an empty shell.

But here’s the issue. Homosexual acts are mortally sinful. Everything else you address are not sins.

Here is the question: is “homosexual” a synonym for sodomite? Because according to sodomy - Wiktionary homosexuality is a synonym for sodomy.

To me, calling someone a homosexual is a kin to calling someone a sodomite, masturbator, fornicator, adulter, etc.

It doesn’t describe them as a person, it indicts that they regulatory commit the sin. So using that logic, a chaste person cannot be a homosexual, just like a chaste person cannot be a sodomite, masturbator, fornicator, adulter, etc.

But that’s where we have gotten confused, because we say being a homosexual is not sinful, but engaging in homosexual acts is sinful.

But we don’t say being a masturbator isn’t sinful, but engaging in masturbation is sinful.

So if we look at it from a linguistic only point of view, it’s all pretty confusing.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Assaulting someone of the same sex doesn’t automatically make one homosexual. There are plenty of heterosexual men in prison who have relations with and/or rape other male prisoners, but not because it’s their actual preference.

 

[phil19034]

Me too… at least that’s how I always viewed it.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

mrsdizzyd:

Thorolfr:

Since many of them probably consider their sexual orientation to be an intrinsic or essential part of who they are, the difference between this essential part being disordered and inclining them to do evil things but not the person themselves doesn’t make much sense.

You have to consider church documents in their proper context. In Catholic theology, we are not our inclinations. This distriction is essential.

I guess that this is one issue that I disagree with the Catholic Church about. To me, the genes that I was born with along with all the experiences I’ve had in my lifetime have shaped the different aspects of my personality into the person I am today, the fact that blue is my favorite color, that I’m somewhat introverted, that I’m gay, that I love to travel, that I’m a bibliophile, that I don’t care for most team sports, etc. etc. Even the fact that I have ADHD is a part of who I am, that I’m easily distracted and have a difficult time staying organized, or beginning tasks or finishing tasks or getting to appointments on time, etc. If all the many aspects of my personality were removed, then, in my opinion, I would become nothing more than an empty shell.

I definitely understand that, and you certainly aren’t alone in this.

From a Catholic perspective, human inclinations can be heavily influenced by things that are not good for us. Our primary identification should be that of a Child of God who is working toward salvation. Any inclinations that work against this end must be kept in check (by responding to grace through the sacraments). If you fully define yourself by an inclination that tempts you to sin against God, it becomes harder to respond to grace. So, those harmful inclinations are crosses to be born rather than innate parts of our personality to accept and to act upon.

I hope that makes sense. I’m trying to be careful with my words so as not to suggest that SSA is something to be ignored or discounted or prayed away. It isn’t.

 

[jtwp5]

Well I’m a heterosexual girl, if I had to sleep with many men in the same room, in intimate locations, or spend 24/7 time with them, I imagine the temptation would be far greater than being allowed to not be with them 24/7 no? I don’t think there is a problem with being friends or bonding with the sex you are attracted to but spending undue amounts with them 24/7 (especially if you are attracted to them) and remaining chaste can be very difficult I would imagine.

There has to be a balance. One needs good relationships with both sexes. You just seem to make it out that most men are sexual predators… Location does matter, there is a reason why most places separate men and women. Different restrooms/locker rooms for example but looks like some people are trying to change that. Having a group of men or women who have strong SSA urges live together would be a bad idea. So if there was a bunch of priests with SSA living together then that’s an issue but I don’t see how that happens overnight. If it were rogue priests corrupting others then it makes more sense.

I’m going to be joining a group for men with SSA but I have to meet with a priest beforehand. I guess I can kind of understand the reasoning. Don’t want to make it a near occasion of sin for people, and some may have ill intentions.

 

[nenabunena]

I’m sorry but I don’t believe those ‘heterosexual’ men are heterosexuals if they are attracted to the same sex, it means that they have an excuse to express their homosexual bent. Is this one of those new western things where heterosexuals are homosexuals and homosexuals are heterosexuals? I don’t subscribe to that and I believe there are only 2 sexes and not multiple ones. I know this is a Western current mindset but I don’t subscribe to any of that.

 

[Shakuhachi]

I don’t think that most gay people would find this distinction to be very meaningful. Since many of them probably consider their sexual orientation to be an intrinsic or essential part of who they are, the difference between this essential part being disordered and inclining them to do evil things but not the person themselves doesn’t make much sense. It’s like saying, “You’re not disordered, but your personality, the thing that make you who you are, is disordered.”

That is a very good point and it sheds light on something that most of do not appreciate.
And that is that most of us do identify with our thoughts, inclinations, personality.
But we are more. We are Imago Dei. We are mystery and we are beautiful.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

But that’s where we have gotten confused, because we say being a homosexual is not sinful, but engaging in homosexual acts is sinful.

But we don’t say being a masturbator isn’t sinful, but engaging in masturbation is sinful.

Just to be clear, the Church does not say the bold. The Church says being same sex attracted is not a sin, but engaging in homosexual acts is a sin.

Ultimately, outside of a Catholic context, the church teaching sounds hypocritical. However, the church is being very careful about the words it is using. If you understand what the church actually means by the words she says, you will realize that the position is logical and consistent as presented.

 

[nenabunena]

nenabunena:

Well I’m a heterosexual girl, if I had to sleep with many men in the same room, in intimate locations, or spend 24/7 time with them, I imagine the temptation would be far greater than being allowed to not be with them 24/7 no? I don’t think there is a problem with being friends or bonding with the sex you are attracted to but spending undue amounts with them 24/7 (especially if you are attracted to them) and remaining chaste can be very difficult I would imagine.

There has to be a balance. One needs good relationships with both sexes. You just seem to make it out that most men are sexual predators… Location does matter, there is a reason why most places separate men and women. Different restrooms/locker rooms for example but looks like some people are trying to change that. Having a group of men or women who have strong SSA urges live together would be a bad idea. So if there was a bunch of priests with SSA living together then that’s an issue but I don’t see how that happens overnight. If it were rogue priests corrupting others then it makes more sense.

I’m going to be joining a group for men with SSA but I have to meet with a priest beforehand. I guess I can kind of understand the reasoning. Don’t want to make it a near occasion of sin for people, and some may have ill intentions.

I think men generally have a higher sexual drive than women and it’s easier for us to be celibate which is why it is such a sacrifice when men do it. I also don’t think most men are sexual predators, I have my brother and father to thank for that (plus I know celibate men who are virgins and not a part of the clergy). They are gentlemen. I don’t think the abusers did it overnight though, there must’ve been a process, years of acculturation until an environment was created in certain seminaries and the weaker ones were easily bent to go along and continue this practice.

Have you read Goodbye, Good Men? Is that what you mean by ‘rogue priests’? I don’t have access or can’t get the book in my country so wondering if that’s your source?

 

[jtwp5]

I guess that this is one issue that I disagree with the Catholic Church about. To me, the genes that I was born with along with all the experiences I’ve had in my lifetime have shaped the different aspects of my personality into the person I am today, the fact that blue is my favorite color, that I’m somewhat introverted, that I’m gay, that I love to travel, that I’m a bibliophile, that I don’t care for most team sports, etc. etc. Even the fact that I have ADHD is a part of who I am, that I’m easily distracted and have a difficult time staying organized, or beginning tasks or finishing tasks or getting to appointments on time, etc. If all the many aspects of my personality were removed, then, in my opinion, I would become nothing more than an empty shell.

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I’ve listened to a few episodes of this podcast. Very enlightening, I don’t think the author is Catholic but he’s a Christian therapist. Would encourage you to give the first 2 episodes a listen. Basically everything is influenced by stuff in our brain, but we need to work on connecting things.

I’ve been going to a Catholic Counselor and it has been so helpful. Dived into a lot of memories from the past. We can get into places sometimes and live out of them and forget who we really are, Sons and Daughters of God. Things can happen in our lives that cause trauma and it affects us to this very day, maybe not consciously but subconsciously. Being able to heal that can bring us in much more connection with ourselves and allow us to give ourselves to others without stuff holding us back.

 

[Augustinian]

I’ve always considered the term “homosexual” or “gay” to refer to people who are actively engaging in same sex relations. The term “chaste homosexual” seems to me to be an oxymoron, like “giant shrimp” or “honest thief”.

I guess for someone’s therapist or very close friends that they might share intimate secrets with, someone’s attraction to the same sex might be relevant even if they aren’t practicing homosexuals. But for most of us non-busybody types, if someone is a latent homosexual, its really none of our business and we don’t need to hear about it or recognize it.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

I’m sorry but I don’t believe those ‘heterosexual’ men are heterosexuals if they are attracted to the same sex, it means that they have an excuse to express their homosexual bent.

I wasn’t talking about attraction. A lot of rapists operate based on opportunism, meaning they’ll take what they can get. There are plenty of child molesters who aren’t actually pedophiles (because they have no inherent attraction to children), but choose to abuse children because they’re easy marks.

 

[jtwp5]

I think men generally have a higher sexual drive than women and it’s easier for us to be celibate which is why it is such a sacrifice when men do it. I also don’t think most men are sexual predators, I have my brother and father to thank for that (plus I know celibate men who are virgins and not a part of the clergy). They are gentlemen. I don’t think the abusers did it overnight though, there must’ve been a process, years of acculturation until an environment was created in certain seminaries and the weaker ones were easily bent to go along and continue this practice.

Have you read Goodbye, Good Men? Is that what you mean by ‘rogue priests’? I don’t have access or can’t get the book in my country so wondering if that’s your source?

I can’t really relate to the sex drive part. I have a friend who struggles with masturbation but not pornography. I can’t understand that. For me without porn I don’t really have sexual desire. I hope things will heal with time, normally I go a few weeks and end up falling. It’s frustrating.

I listened to this homily: Bold Homily From Priest addressing today's scandals

 

[Ardent_Fire]

@catholic1seeks
I was listening to a priest’s sermon recently and he pointed out that getting too wrapped up in current events, catholic news and catholic forums can actually be spiritually damaging to different people for different reasons. I guess people think “hey it’s church related so it must be good” but that’s not always the case. I think it’s a breeding ground for a lot of anger but also a lot of despair depending on which side someone is on, or even for just people who wish to stay on the sidelines it’s just aggravating. Sometimes I take breaks from Catholic forums for that reason, it just becomes too much.

I should take my own advice here, but I’d suggest being selective about what you read on the internet and spend more time with that which is more beneficial – reading the bible, praying a rosary, learning about the saints or listening to audio sermons that aren’t related to the scandals.

 

[phil19034]

I’ve always considered the term “homosexual” or “gay” to refer to people who are actively engaging in same sex relations. The term “chaste homosexual” seems to me to be an oxymoron, like “giant shrimp” or “honest thief”.

I guess for someone’s therapist or very close friends that they might share intimate secrets with, someone’s attraction to the same sex might be relevant even if they aren’t practicing homosexuals. But for most of us non-busybody types, if someone is a latent homosexual, its really none of our business and we don’t need to hear about it or recognize it.

Well said…