"homosexual person" myth or Truth

[jjr9]

the Church said the Homosexual Person exists BECAUSE of a SEVERE MORAL DISTORTION. That could be the only reason. So all I can see is this person denies the teaching of the Church that this order does indeed exist.

The Magisterium makes the claim that a group of people experience an exclusive SSA I believe
this claim is untrue.

Do you have a truly right and just reason to believe anyone experiences an exclusive SSA?

I believe that SSA is disordered I believe no one experiences an exclusive SSA.

God bless

 

[rinnie]

It is not clear to me what you are saying here. Can you rephrase?

God bless

I will try once more. This is the teaching of the RCC.

It is true Homosexual Orientation IF IT IS NOT WILLED is not itself a sin. But it is HERETIC to CLAIM it is NOT a SEVERE MORAL DISORDER and referred to as a kind of evil.

Please understand I am not screaming at you, I am trying to get you to see key words.

Anotherwards this is a disorder that indeed exists. It is not a sin if someone has this disorder, but IF it exists, the Church accepts this disorder, and does not consider this disorder a SIN, but if you have this disorder it IS a sin to react on it.

 

[rinnie]

The Magisterium makes the claim that a group of people experience an exclusive SSA I believe
this claim is untrue.

Do you have a truly right and just reason to believe anyone experiences an exclusive SSA?

I believe that SSA is disordered I believe no one experiences an exclusive SSA.

God bless

How can you believe that SSA is a disorder, then claim it does not exist? You cannot have it both ways.

 

[Usagi]

I believe no one has exclusive SSA, that they are incapable of OSA.

God bless

And what is your “truly right and just” reason for believing that? Why should the rest of us, and the Magisterium, submit to your conclusion on this? You have repeatedly demanded that others give a “truly right and just” reason for disagreeing with you (and “I, personally, experience this thing you say does not exist” is never good enough) – so what’s your reason why it has to be the way you believe?

 

[jjr9]

I will try once more. This is the teaching of the RCC.

It is true Homosexual Orientation IF IT IS NOT WILLED is not itself a sin. But it is HERETIC to CLAIM it is NOT a SEVERE MORAL DISORDER and referred to as a kind of evil.

Please understand I am not screaming at you, I am trying to get you to see key words.

Anotherwards this is a disorder that indeed exists. It is not a sin if someone has this disorder, but IF it exists, the Church accepts this disorder, and does not consider this disorder a SIN, but if you have this disorder it IS a sin to react on it.

Can you cite the “teaching of the RCC” you are referring to.

God bless

 

[rinnie]

And what is your “truly right and just” reason for believing that? Why should the rest of us, and the Magisterium, submit to your conclusion on this? You have repeatedly demanded that others give a “truly right and just” reason for disagreeing with you (and “I, personally, experience this thing you say does not exist” is never good enough) – so what’s your reason why it has to be the way you believe?

Exact this person would have to give professional evidence that people do not have a Same Sex Attraction Disorder. I would like to see evidence. The Church claims SSA does exist but it is a disorder. She needs to prove the Church wrong. And our personal opinions don;t cut it.

 

[Bookcat]

The Magisterium makes the claim that a group of people experience an exclusive SSA

No it does not.

Cease asserting something that is not true.

The Magisterium teaches no such thing.

Rather the Magisterium teaches about mortal and how those with such SSA are to live chastely and become more holy.

 

[Bookcat]

Circle.

 

[rinnie]

Can you cite the “teaching of the RCC” you are referring to.

God bless

sure the CCC Homosexuality and Sin Part b

 

[rinnie]

Circle.

Probally. But I hope she sees that if someone does not will it for themselves to be this way, and claim they don’t want to be this way, if we do not accept it is a disorder we are a heretic.

 

[goout]

skip…skip…skip…

Did you think this was over?
BOO!

 

[Bookcat]

Probally. But I hope she sees that if someone does not will it for themselves to be this way, and claim they don’t want to be this way, if we do not accept it is a disorder we are a heretic.

Well heretic is a strong word.

But certainly what the Church actually teaches there (which is not what the OP believes it is teaching) is correct. It is discussing the morality in terms of those who experience such - it is NOT teaching about questions of psychology or the empirical sciences…it is not teaching that there are person who cannot experience per se OSA …it is discussing the morality of those who* experience* SSA to any degree they say they do.

 

[Bookcat]

Did you think this was over?
BOO!

:snowing:

 

[rinnie]

Well heretic is a strong word.

But certainly what the Church actually teaches there (which is not what the OP believes it is teaching) is correct. It is discussing the morality in terms of those who experience such - it is NOT teaching about questions of psychology or the empirical sciences…it is not teaching that there are person who cannot experience per se OSA …it is discussing the morality of those who* experience* SSA to any degree they say they do.

Just quoting what the teaching said. Which I take it to say is this, you got one person who chooses to experiment and try SS partners, that is absolutely what I believe is a willed. But then you have the next person who does not want to feel that way, but does not know why they do, Disorder.

But the key teaching is this, if you have this disorder you are not in a state of sin only if you react on it. Only God know what is willed and what is a disorder.

 

[Thorolfr]

Just quoting what the teaching said. Which I take it to say is this, you got one person who chooses to experiment and try SS partners, that is absolutely what I believe is a willed. But then you have the next person who does not want to feel that way, but does not know why they do, Disorder.

But the key teaching is this, if you have this disorder you are not in a state of sin only if you react on it. Only God know what is willed and what is a disorder.

So I guess when it’s willed, it’s no longer a disorder?

 

[Rau]

I believe no one has exclusive SSA, that they are incapable of OSA.

Experiences are temporal. One may experience exclusively SSA, for a period, perhaps a lengthy period. And at some future time, perhaps following a life-changing event, perhaps following spiritual intervention, one finds attraction to the opposite sex emerge. Who can say how events may develop for an individual? You seem to think the Church takes a stand against such a turn of events. Nonsense.

 

[rinnie]

So I guess when it’s willed, it’s no longer a disorder?

I wouldn’t say that. But I guess the best way to put it is this. We all fall in to sin, but many times the reason we fall into sin is because of our own pleasures.

The easiest way to put it is this, a person who has a need to steal, they truly don’t need what they are stealing its just the sickness of getting their fix.

Then you have the next person who while they have no need to steal, they do it out of greed.

But I am just telling you what the Church teaches as far as if it is willed it is a sin, but if it is a disorder it is not a sin if you do not act on it.

Do you believe that everyone that engages in homosexual activity have a moral disorder and have always felt this way?

But I can say from a personal view I don’t get it. I believe alot of it is drugs and people trying to find happiness in all the wrong places. Again my personal belief. Or if someone has a breakup and then this situation comes up they think what the heck, try it, forgetting or could care less if it is a sin. And that I do not believe is a disorder as far as having the constant need, but a disorder because it wrong.

 

[jjr9]

And what is your “truly right and just” reason for believing that? Why should the rest of us, and the Magisterium, submit to your conclusion on this? You have repeatedly demanded that others give a “truly right and just” reason for disagreeing with you (and “I, personally, experience this thing you say does not exist” is never good enough) – so what’s your reason why it has to be the way you believe?

No one can prove that something does not exist. If you believe something to be true you can either
show it to be true with evidence that can be verified or you can believe it through faith.

The CCC says:

84 The apostles entrusted the “Sacred deposit” of the faith (the depositum fidei),45 contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. “By adhering to [this heritage] the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practicing and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful.”

I know of no evidence that can be verified which shows anyone experiences an exclusive SSA
and the idea that anyone experiences an exclusive SSA is not in harmony with the Sacred Deposit
of Faith the Apostles entrusted to the whole of the Church the Magisterium has no authority to
present what is false as true in the name of the Lord’s Church.

God bless

 

[jjr9]

sure the CCC Homosexuality and Sin Part b

Not sure what you are referring to I found an article by Ronald L. Conte Jr. ( ref: catechism.cc/articles/homosexuality-sin.htm )
Mr Conte does not claim to speak for the Magisterium and does not address the issue of exclusive SSA.
If you are referring to something else please be more specific.

Here is the CCC section on Chastity and homosexuality ( vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm ) :

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Here the Magisterium claims a group of people experience an exclusive SSA the claim is
clear, unambiguous and false.

God bless

 

[Bookcat]

No one can prove that something does not exist. If you believe something to be true you can either
show it to be true with evidence that can be verified or you can believe it through faith.

The CCC says:

84 The apostles entrusted the “Sacred deposit” of the faith (the depositum fidei),45 contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. “By adhering to [this heritage] the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practicing and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful.”

I know of no evidence that can be verified which shows anyone experiences an exclusive SSA
and the idea that anyone experiences an exclusive SSA is not in harmony with the Sacred Deposit
of Faith the Apostles entrusted to the whole of the Church the Magisterium has no authority to
present what is false as true in the name of the Lord’s Church.

God bless

The Magisterium is NOT teaching what is false as true in the name of the Church.

Period.

The Magisterium is NOT teaching what you suggest. Period.

Where is the Church doing that?
**
Now where.**

Such a claimed experience of persons has absolutely nothing to do with the Sacred Deposit of Faith.

Please read more on the nature of Church Teaching and the various kinds. There is some confusion present. Read in the Catechism and other sound places such as Catholic Answers site. Feel free to call the Apologist line as well.

Subjective experience is a* subjective *experience.

The Church is teaching about MORALITY.

Someone can claim all sorts of experience. The fact that the Church applies moral teaching to that experience is NOT teaching that such an experience is the only experience that is possible per se for that person. It is simply applying morality.

If someone experiences an inability to remain living with their spouse - the Church teaches them how they may morally separate. While of course remaining married.

Does the Church then teach that that it is not POSSIBLE for them to remain living with their spouse?

No.

She only applies the moral teachings.

The Church is not teaching what you suggest.

It would actually fall to the person making a claim to prove that such is true.

And in this case it is quite the case not true.