Homosexual Problem - The Truth is Annoying

[Soutane]

I live in Australia. We had another one revealed a few weeks ago. Plus another one whose crime was mere fraud and embezzlement, who had been protected by the Church hierarchy - though not exactly shuffled between diocese. More than once, anyway. The second time, it wasn’t the Cardinal’s doing.

catholica.com.au/forum/index.php?id=10791

You’ve just proved my point.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I got a better one for ya! Let’s have an inquisition and declare all homosexual persons in the church to be “anathema maranatha” (outside the Church until Christ’s return – permanently excluded from all sacraments).

That way, they’re out of sight, out of mind and everyone in the Church is safe and secure from all alarm and all the homos can burn in hell.

(I’m trying to ensure that distinctions are drawn here and using absurd arguments to make my point, in case anyone is wondering).

SSA vs Gay?

 

[LCMS_No_More]

SSA vs Gay?

Exactly!

The point is, it seems that people don’t get the difference. People with same-sex attractions are boxed into this label of homosexual and, with rare exceptions, no distinction is made betwixt the gay and and non-gay homosexual persons. Granted, society doesn’t help in that some say that SSA = gay. Funny how the culture can affect the Church in that negative way, yes? People in Church hear the homosexual sexual activity is wrong, the culture says that there’s nothing wrong being “gay” (defined as homosexual, period), so lazy thinking (a common problem in our culture, no slam to anyone personally) sets in everyone to whom the same adjective (i.e., homosexual) can be applied is the same, regardless of how they live their lives. An extreme example of this would be Fred Phelps of “God Hates Fags” fame. A less extreme example would be the constant mention of the fact that the priests involved in the scandals were, for the most part, homosexual.

Of course, the fact that we are talking about a small minority of homosexual persons who have a fetish for post-pubescent teens is rarely mentioned. It’s far easier to think in terms of the whole group of people to whom the adjective homosexual applies as the guilty party in the scandals.

Thus, my conclusion, let’s not only laicize all priests with same-sex attractions, let’s anathematize EVERYONE with same-sex attractions from the Church for all time. That way, there’s no danger to all the pure and holy saints in the Church and those in the Church can thumb their noses and look down at all the sinners outside the Church, particularly homosexual persons who are condemned to eternal hellfire because they are anathematized, thus have no access to the sacraments.

(Of course, to do so would be contrary to the teachings of the Church and Christ’s words, but we’re on a political witch hunt here! No time for rationality and reason!)

What I’m ultimately saying is that, yes, point out the truth, but let’s make sure that it’s the WHOLE truth. Yes, the scandals were caused by predatory homosexually oriented men who have a fetish for post-pubescent teens. It’s a lot more work, but it’s ACCURATE and leaves those who have nothing to do with the problem out of it.

 

[markeverett49]

I have just begun re-reading “The Church Impotent: The Feminization of Christianity” by Leon Podles, a most orthodox Cathlolic. I think much of what he says there is relevant here because a big problem with priests today is that they are wimps when it comes to asserting dogmas but this has nothing to do with being gay (-though yes, if one is gay and thinks the Church is wrong about that, then one is unlikely to preach much on the subject, but think of the thousands of priests who never preach about abortion even though they agree with the Church about it: they don’t want to ‘upset’ anyone.)

That sort of, unmanliness, is sometimes associated with homosexuality but I think that is a mistake. (Some gay men are very masculine, some straight men are quite feminine.)

Anyway, I think Podles is worth reading in light of this discussion. I started a thread on his book which contains a link to a free (pdf) download of the book, which is out of print.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Exactly!

The point is, it seems that people don’t get the difference. People with same-sex attractions are boxed into this label of homosexual and, with rare exceptions, no distinction is made betwixt the gay and and non-gay homosexual persons. Granted, society doesn’t help in that some say that SSA = gay. Funny how the culture can affect the Church in that negative way, yes? People in Church hear the homosexual sexual activity is wrong, the culture says that there’s nothing wrong being “gay” (defined as homosexual, period), so lazy thinking (a common problem in our culture, no slam to anyone personally) sets in everyone to whom the same adjective (i.e., homosexual) can be applied is the same, regardless of how they live their lives. An extreme example of this would be Fred Phelps of “God Hates Fags” fame. A less extreme example would be the constant mention of the fact that the priests involved in the scandals were, for the most part, homosexual.

Of course, the fact that we are talking about a small minority of homosexual persons who have a fetish for post-pubescent teens is rarely mentioned. It’s far easier to think in terms of the whole group of people to whom the adjective homosexual applies as the guilty party in the scandals.

Thus, my conclusion, let’s not only laicize all priests with same-sex attractions, let’s anathematize EVERYONE with same-sex attractions from the Church for all time. That way, there’s no danger to all the pure and holy saints in the Church and those in the Church can thumb their noses and look down at all the sinners outside the Church, particularly homosexual persons who are condemned to eternal hellfire because they are anathematized, thus have no access to the sacraments.

(Of course, to do so would be contrary to the teachings of the Church and Christ’s words, but we’re on a political witch hunt here! No time for rationality and reason!)

What I’m ultimately saying is that, yes, point out the truth, but let’s make sure that it’s the WHOLE truth. Yes, the scandals were caused by predatory homosexually oriented men who have a fetish for post-pubescent teens. It’s a lot more work, but it’s ACCURATE and leaves those who have nothing to do with the problem out of it.

The problem here is the “GAY” community is very outspoken, in-your face. They define themselves by their sexuality. There are Catholics who think same sex marriage is ok.

Thank you for raising our awareness.

As I told you, I am OSA (Other sex attraction). Should people assume I lead the “gay” life like they do in Hollywood? lol

 

[LCMS_No_More]

The problem here is the “GAY” community is very outspoken, in-your face. They define themselves by their sexuality. There are Catholics who think same sex marriage is ok.

Sadly, this is true. Non-gay homosexual persons (SSA) people tend to keep it quiet and keep to themselves, as a rule. I’m not sure that’s the best way to deal with the issue, to be honest because SSA people get walked all over regardless. The world will tell them that they should “accept” that they are “gay” and live that life and people in the Church who, without distinction, criticize “homosexuals” incessantly.

Bring it up and people in the Church basically tell one to “sit down, shut up and never, ever bring it up.”

Thank you for raising our awareness.

I wonder what’s harder, raising the awareness of my fellow Catholics or working out the issues that lead to me having SSA in the first place.

As I told you, I am OSA (Other sex attraction).

Are you single?

Should people assume I lead the “gay” life like they do in Hollywood? lol

LOL!

Actually, it’s easy to think of this this way. Think in terms of sets (I’m a math person, what can I say?).

HOMOSEXUAL = {1,2,3,4,5,6}
GAY = {2,4,5}

Here, we see that 1,2,3,4,5,and 6 are part of the set named homosexual. Only 2,4, and 5 are part of the subset named gay. In other words, while all “gays” are homosexual, not all “homosexuals” are gay.

In my case, I’m slowly but surely moving from SSA towards OSA. I’m still more SSA than OSA, but I’m moving in that direction. Lots of issues to work through, but I’ve made a MAJOR breakthrough involving forgiveness and I’ve felt so much better since. Right now, I guess you could say I’m BSA! :yup:

 

[Soutane]

Exactly!

The point is, it seems that people don’t get the difference. People with same-sex attractions are boxed into this label of homosexual and, with rare exceptions, no distinction is made betwixt the gay and and non-gay homosexual persons. Granted, society doesn’t help in that some say that SSA = gay. Funny how the culture can affect the Church in that negative way, yes? People in Church hear the homosexual sexual activity is wrong, the culture says that there’s nothing wrong being “gay” (defined as homosexual, period), so lazy thinking (a common problem in our culture, no slam to anyone personally) sets in everyone to whom the same adjective (i.e., homosexual) can be applied is the same, regardless of how they live their lives. An extreme example of this would be Fred Phelps of “God Hates Fags” fame. A less extreme example would be the constant mention of the fact that the priests involved in the scandals were, for the most part, homosexual.

Of course, the fact that we are talking about a small minority of homosexual persons who have a fetish for post-pubescent teens is rarely mentioned. It’s far easier to think in terms of the whole group of people to whom the adjective homosexual applies as the guilty party in the scandals.

Thus, my conclusion, let’s not only laicize all priests with same-sex attractions, let’s anathematize EVERYONE with same-sex attractions from the Church for all time. That way, there’s no danger to all the pure and holy saints in the Church and those in the Church can thumb their noses and look down at all the sinners outside the Church, particularly homosexual persons who are condemned to eternal hellfire because they are anathematized, thus have no access to the sacraments.

(Of course, to do so would be contrary to the teachings of the Church and Christ’s words, but we’re on a political witch hunt here! No time for rationality and reason!)

What I’m ultimately saying is that, yes, point out the truth, but let’s make sure that it’s the WHOLE truth. Yes, the scandals were caused by predatory homosexually oriented men who have a fetish for post-pubescent teens. It’s a lot more work, but it’s ACCURATE and leaves those who have nothing to do with the problem out of it.

Thank you your erudite insight.Not all men are rapists,not all heterosexuals are pedophiles not all SSA or homosexuals are hebephiles.In our desperation and literal panic to solve this problem we CANNOT scapegoat and demonize our gay(innocent and chaste)priests and fellow parishoners.
I am a single heterosexual man and I struggle with chastity,I long to embrace sexually my girlfriend.It has nothing to do with sexual gratification but a physical expression of love.Homosexuals,like Catholics are two of the most characterised groups on the face of the earth.All homosexuals look for fresh young meat.All homosexuals are promiscuous.All homosexuals want to get into YOUR pants.All homosexuals are defined by their genetalia.Fill in the blanks about Catholics.We have to pray for each other to maintain chastity appropriate to our stations in life.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Sadly, this is true. Non-gay homosexual persons (SSA) people tend to keep it quiet and keep to themselves, as a rule. I’m not sure that’s the best way to deal with the issue, to be honest because SSA people get walked all over regardless. The world will tell them that they should “accept” that they are “gay” and live that life and people in the Church who, without distinction, criticize “homosexuals” incessantly.

The very nature of SSA vs GAY is at the root of this. You can’t be loud and in your face.

Bring it up and people in the Church basically tell one to “sit down, shut up and never, ever bring it up.”

I’m really sorry about this. People just don’t know any better. There are a lot of lurkers here who will benefit from your openess.

I wonder what’s harder, raising the awareness of my fellow Catholics or working out the issues that lead to me having SSA in the first place.

Working on your issues requires community. I hope talking to us on CAF has been helpful.

Actually, I’m slowly but surely moving from SSA towards OSA. I’m still more SSA than OSA, but I’m moving in that direction. Lots of issues to work through, but I’ve made a MAJOR breakthrough involving forgiveness and I’ve felt so much better since. Right now, I guess you could say I’m BSA! :yup:

lol

I know this is not pc, but I’m very happy for you. I think the major hurdle has to be separating yourself from your old “community” and entering the real world. GAY life seems very angry and oppositional to me.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

The very nature of SSA vs GAY is at the root of this. You can’t be loud and in your face.

True. Very true.

I’m really sorry about this. People just don’t know any better. There are a lot of lurkers here who will benefit from your openess

One can hope.

Working on your issues requires community. I hope talking to us on CAF has been helpful.

It has in some ways. A short time back, I was really having a hard time and posted what I was thinking in that place of hurt and shame. Some of the responses have helped, others I chose to ignore (the “sit down, shut up” posts).

lol

I know this is not pc, but I’m very happy for you. I think the major hurdle has to be separating yourself from your old “community” and entering the real world. GAY life seems very angry and oppositional to me.

And shallow, don’t forget shallow.

 

[Fair_Lady]

I have a question. Does the Catholic Church ordain men who are openly gay into the priesthood? From what I’ve gathered, there is an acknowledgment that the priesthood includes gay men. That surprises me, because I would have assumed that any clergy would be screened through very high standards. It also baffles me that they are not automatically ousted, in each and every case, after being involved in deviant behaviour such as sexual molestation.

One thing we can be sure of is this. The Holy Spirit is not present in one who takes up the behaviour of a sexual predator. How, in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, is it possible that a priest caught up in such activity can be allowed to represent Christ?

 

[Zoe_Brain]

From The Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests

“Of the priests we’ve evaluated, more abuse girls than abuse boys,” says Gary Schoener, a Minneapolis psychologist and expert on clergy sexual abuse.

Despite media emphasis over the years on male victims – boys and men with horrific stories of their own – Schoener and other experts believe that troubled priests and other clergy are more likely to abuse females, especially adult women.

Sometimes their stories trickle out; more often, they do not.

Meanwhile, the number of male victims in a single parish can add up quickly, as one pedophile-priest may have unlimited access for a long period to boys on outings or other male-oriented church activities.

From this, big headlines are made.

Summary:
The majority of the abusers are heterosexual.
The majority of the abused are boys, because just one abuser will often have access to male victims over a long period rather than female ones. Clerical paediphiles, who are equal-opportunity rapists, have far more access to male victims.

Note that this is a victims group saying this, not a pro-gay group.

This may also explain why the even greater rates in other Christian denominations have not been as well publicised.

Why are major media and non-Catholic church authorities so eager to low-profile these non-Catholic crimes?

Because, by and large, the deed is being done by clergy who are usually married… and therefore supposedly heterosexual.

In other words, religious authorities and politicians can’t play the “gay card” with these cases, the way they’ve fallen over themselves to do with the Roman Catholic clergy, who are required to be celibate.

Thus, all these years that the Catholic scandal has lasted, blaming the sex crimes of Roman Catholic clergy on the alleged illicit urges of closeted gay priests has been the major focus of investigation. It has touched off a tidal wave of anti-gay repression and witch-hunting within the Roman Catholic Church. Some Catholic authorities even come forward with the old fake theory that “there’s a link between homosexuality and pedophilia,” thus perpetuating the myth that all gay men are potential child molesters.

As a result, less attention has been paid to festering sex crimes against children of the opposite gender. Some Catholic parents are furious at the church’s eagerness to blame it all “on the gays,” thus minimizing the molesting of these parents’ daughters by priests.

That last is from a pro-GLBT site, but again I must emphasise, the badic facts are not.

According to a Christian Science Monitor report in 2002: “Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers.”

The Monitor went on to reveal, “These are findings from national surveys by Christian Ministry Resources (CMR), a tax and legal-advice publisher serving more than 75,000 congregations and 1,000 denominational agencies nationwide. CMR’s annual surveys of about 1,000 churches nationwide have asked about sexual abuse since 1993. They’re a remarkable window on a problem that lurked largely in the shadows of public awareness until the Catholic scandals arose.”

You could say that the Catholic Church is “collateral damage” in the great surge of homophobia that it itself has fostered. Hoist on its own petard.

 

[unafraid]

From The Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests

Summary:
The majority of the abusers are heterosexual.
The majority of the abused are boys, because just one abuser will often have access to male victims over a long period rather than female ones. Clerical paediphiles, who are equal-opportunity rapists, have far more access to male victims.

Note that this is a victims group saying this, not a pro-gay group.

This may also explain why the even greater rates in other Christian denominations have not been as well publicised.
That last is from a pro-GLBT site, but again I must emphasise, the badic facts are not.

You could say that the Catholic Church is “collateral damage” in the great surge of homophobia that it itself has fostered. Hoist on its own petard.

Mercifully, my post is number fifty-one. One above the limit. Finis.

 

[Fair_Lady]

I have a question. Does the Catholic Church ordain men who are openly gay into the priesthood? From what I’ve gathered, there is an acknowledgment that the priesthood includes gay men. That surprises me, because I would have assumed that any clergy would be screened through very high standards. It also baffles me that they are not automatically ousted, in each and every case, after being involved in deviant behaviour such as sexual molestation.

One thing we can be sure of is this. The Holy Spirit is not present in one who takes up the behaviour of a sexual predator. How, in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, is it possible that a priest caught up in such activity can be allowed to represent Christ?

Does anyone have the answer to my question?

 

[Santi2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair Lady
I have a question. Does the Catholic Church ordain men who are openly gay into the priesthood? From what I’ve gathered, there is an acknowledgment that the priesthood includes gay men. That surprises me, because I would have assumed that any clergy would be screened through very high standards. It also baffles me that they are not automatically ousted, in each and every case, after being involved in deviant behaviour such as sexual molestation.

One thing we can be sure of is this. The Holy Spirit is not present in one who takes up the behaviour of a sexual predator. How, in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, is it possible that a priest caught up in such activity can be allowed to represent Christ?

If “openly gay” means subscribing to a gay lifestyle, then NO…the Catholic Church does not ordain men who are “openly gay”. Has the Church ordained gay men? Yes. However, unless one admits to being openly gay, is there really a screening process that cannot be breached? Then, one also has to look at it from what Holy Orders and the Sacrament is about, which is really not one which rests on sexual orientation but, on a true calling for the priesthood.

 

[Fair_Lady]

If “openly gay” means subscribing to a gay lifestyle, then NO…the Catholic Church does not ordain men who are “openly gay”. Has the Church ordained gay men? Yes. However, unless one admits to being openly gay, is there really a screening process that cannot be breached? Then, one also has to look at it from what Holy Orders and the Sacrament is about, which is really not one which rests on sexual orientation but, on a true calling for the priesthood.

Thank you. You’re right, there really isn’t a screening process that can’t be breached. Secret sin can be something not easily found out. My hope would be that if a man admits to having homosexual desires, that this would be enough to disqualify him from the priesthood because it is a serious deviation from what God intends for all.

 

[RobbyS]

This “let’s pity the poor, powerless, perpetually victimized homosexuals” is a mantra that just will not sell any longer. The homosexual influence in both culture and politics is greatly disproportiate to their numbers. The gay political lobby is so powerful that it forced the President of the United States, at a time when prudence demanded he lean to the center, to swear a public vow of support for the entire homosexual agenda. There is tremendous power and influence exerted by homosexuals within the media as well. This is a bloc which must be highly scrutinuzed in this attack on the Church. It must not be misrepresented as something it isn’t just out of the fear of sounding politically incorrect.

And as far as hatred goes, one need only research the many published statements made in the aftermath of the state by state (mostly) rejection of gay marriage ammendments. The vehemence of the rage and cries for retribution are nothing short of incendiary, such as, “We need to burn down all the f***g churches…then let’s tax the charred remains”, and this, “Someone needs to burn down the Mormon Temple in L.A…I mean really DO IT!..Mormons and Catholics better watch their backs…I’m serious.” Do the research, see how organized homosexuality has targeted The Catholic Church and the Mormons for reprisals due to the intransigence of their stands on gay issues. Read it in THEIR words. It is all out there, stated as boldly as the slanderous headlines we now see every day. Do the research, it is worth it.

When a group vows in public to get revenge on another group, and does it with impunity, is it right to classify the aggressor in that instance as a “victim”? I think not. If a group of people make statements that threaten another group, in public, on the record, are those threats to be taken seriously? Absolutely.

Actually, I think that the Roman Catholic Church is one of the last things left that can be skewered and railed against, openly and savagely, and with impunity. That reality must change, and it might take Catholic activism to accomplish the job. It is a new age we are living in, where everything is turned on its end, We would be wise to keep our equilibrium.

Indeed, what is novel about modern homosexuality is how organized politically it is. Ancient Greek society was rife with this practice. One reason why athletics was conducted in the nude was to displace the well-formed male body. Gymnasiums were opposed in Jerusalem because of the open homosexuality there, so like that in pagan temples. Pederasty was part and parcel of it. That said, there were societal limits on it. A student of Soctrates, the gifted Alcibiades, was proscribed because he did things that were common features of SF bathhouses. Nowhere was the right of homosexual marriage advanced. Many moderns disdain the politics and are content to enjoy themselves free of former constraints, but many others have with almost puritanical zeal sought to punish anyone who dare say they are wrong in anything they do. They are zealots with power and money who will use any means to crash their enemies, but complain about the slightest slight to their self-love.

 

[BobCatholic]

Who’s being protected when this aspect is omitted from public discussion?

The politically correct.

Sextremists want to push their agenda forward - they believe that there should be no rules on sex. So once one sexual orientation is protected, well, you gotta protect the others as well. Brick by brick, to build the wall of perversion.

 

[markeverett49]

If “openly gay” means subscribing to a gay lifestyle, then NO…the Catholic Church does not ordain men who are “openly gay”. Has the Church ordained gay men? Yes. However, unless one admits to being openly gay, is there really a screening process that cannot be breached? .

I spent several years at a somewhat notorious seminary–Notre Dame in New Orleans, otherwise known as Notre Flame–and attended the ordination of several men I knew were gay. (This isn’t the reason I went,) They were “open” about it to the extent that the rector knew, as did their friends, but not ‘open’ about it in the sense of having sex in the hallway. (Which makes me wonder, what is ‘openly heterosexual’? I’m heterosexual but I don’t know how I would be ‘open’ about it other than to publicly confess sexual acts with women, which I wouldn’t do even if married because I’m not that kinda guy.)

A good friend of mine who is not gay, and serves as a priest in one of the Carolinas, once told me, “Mark, if you had told them you were gay, you would be a priest now.” It was a joke–I’m not gay and would not have lied, and he wasn’t seriously suggesting I should have–but he had a point. That would have been seen as my ‘struggle’, and all I would have had to do was not have sex with a man or go to gay bars and would now be a priest. It is, I think, a sad commentary but an accurate one.

But the main point is this: yes, many men who have told their rectors they are gay now stand on the short side of the altar in chasubles offering the holy sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[Santi2]

I spent several years at a somewhat notorious seminary–Notre Dame in New Orleans, otherwise known as Notre Flame–and attended the ordination of several men I knew were gay. (This isn’t the reason I went,) They were “open” about it to the extent that the rector knew, as did their friends, but not ‘open’ about it in the sense of having sex in the hallway. (Which makes me wonder, what is ‘openly heterosexual’? I’m heterosexual but I don’t know how I would be ‘open’ about it other than to publicly confess sexual acts with women, which I wouldn’t do even if married because I’m not that kinda guy.)

A good friend of mine who is not gay, and serves as a priest in one of the Carolinas, once told me, “Mark, if you had told them you were gay, you would be a priest now.” It was a joke–I’m not gay and would not have lied, and he wasn’t seriously suggesting I should have–but he had a point. That would have been seen as my ‘struggle’, and all I would have had to do was not have sex with a man or go to gay bars and would now be a priest. It is, I think, a sad commentary but an accurate one.

But the main point is this: yes, many men who have told their rectors they are gay now stand on the short side of the altar in chasubles offering the holy sacrifice of the Mass.

I am so, so sorry that the seminary you attended had been of that sort, Mark. Did you continue elsewhere? There was a link to Goodbye Good Men that some one posted a few days ago which I got to read. Much like the scandals which have unfolded over the years and the attack on the Holy Father, it broke my heart to read through it. But, one remains steadfast in faith even when at times I struggle to be charitable with the errant priests but, Providentially one manages to find hope…and charity…most especially charity, in order to be able to forgive. I hope all is well with you despite that experience at Notre Dame. God bless.