Homosexual Relationships

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I totally agree with you Pathia & Exalt. The laws of all religions change over time, and they have greatly with Judiasm and Christianity. The Catholic church’s laws change constantly. For instance, just in the past short 40 years, rules of the RCC that were SINS, and needed to be absolved by going to confession:

Touching the Eucharist with the fingers or any body part but the mouth.

Eating meat on any Friday of the year.

Women in church without anything on their heads.

Fasting since midnight before receiving morning communion. (I recall more than once seeing people faint at mass from skipping breakfast)

Stepping foot in any church but the Catholic church.

Among others. But, according to the RCC today, all these are no longer sins. (And, don’t anyone try and say the church never considered these sins, because they absolutely were called sins!) What’s sin today may not be sin tomorrow.

It does not seem wise to allow an organization like the Catholic church, who changes it’s so called sins at whim, to make rules such as who can engage in sexual relationships and who cannot. Or to follow any of it’s rules for that matter.
Such things are not changed “at a whim”, and the RCC didn’t make “rules…as who can engage in sexual relationships and who cannot”.

Are you familiar with the concept of Natural Law?

Do you know the purpose for such “rules” of conduct? :rolleyes:
The “rules” also forbid murder, so based on your presumption, do you think that this “rule” is likely to change?

…and can you quote a “rule” that has to do with interpersonal behavior that has been changed?
Even a cursory review of either testament of the bible reveals orders from God and his Son to kill those who rub them the wrong way! Yikes!!!
And where would that be in the NT? :rolleyes:

BTW, check out 1 Corinthians 6:9 for a NT reference to homosexual behavior that isn’t based on OT Mosaic law. 🙂
 
Methinks you’re sidestepping the whole issue of homosexuality and scripture. You make mention of the RCC’s position on homosexual acts. Well I’m assuming that such a position is based on the Catholic Church’s Catechism. In turn the Catechism states that it bases its position on Sacred Scripture. Now here’s the simple question: What are all of the scriptures the Catechism is referring to?
(Answer mentioned in my last post)

By all means, I’m not sidestepping the issue. What I asked and am still waiting for is a single scripture reference to illustrate the allegation that the RCC is “anti-gay”.

But really, can we be a little more specific than throwing out such “anti-gay” allegations? What I don’t quite understand is the tendency for some to try to point out how the RCC teaching on homosexual activity is “wrong” in order to justify it. Why argue about it if the RCC is indeed wrong? Why not just ignore the RCC?

Or maybe there is a wee bit of recognition or question, however small, that the RCC may be right afterall? 🙂
 
So if they had been nice about it the sodomay part would have been ok? Give me a break.
The sin was inhospitality, that is something that is always forgotten. Want proof? Here.

Ezekiel 16:48 has God getting angry, saying Israel is becoming worse than Sodom, and says what their sins were. “She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.”
 
Or maybe there is a wee bit of recognition or question, however small, that the RCC may be right afterall? 🙂
Interesting point…Or perhaps it’s more a matter of “it’s not enough for me to win, you also have to lose” mentality.:hmmm:
 
Interesting point…Or perhaps it’s more a matter of “it’s not enough for me to win, you also have to lose” mentality.:hmmm:
'zactly. I’ve found that, in general, the more confident one is in their position, the more restrained, calm and rational their discussion tends to be.
 
The sin was inhospitality, that is something that is always forgotten. Want proof? Here.

Ezekiel 16:48 has God getting angry, saying Israel is becoming worse than Sodom, and says what their sins were. “She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.”
Hmmm. Jude verse 7 : “Likewise, Sodom, Gomorrah, and the surrounding towns, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual promiscuity and practiced unnatural vice, 6 serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.”

Nice try but no cigar.
 
Grace & Peace!
Hmmm. Jude verse 7 : “Likewise, Sodom, Gomorrah, and the surrounding towns, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual promiscuity and practiced unnatural vice, 6 serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.”

Nice try but no cigar.
The words poorly translated here in bold are more accurately translated lusting after “heteras sarkas” or “strange flesh”. This “strange flesh” refers to the angels–the people of S&G were lusting after angels. Jude is probably referring to a contemporary problem–no doubt something practiced by a rival gnostic group (perhaps similar to the Bridal Chamber sacrament of the Valentinians, or a sexual interpretation of the gnostic doctrine of union with the Divine Double?).

At any rate, homosexuality is not what this verse refers to.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!
 
Grace & Peace!

The words poorly translated here in bold are more accurately translated lusting after “heteras sarkas” or “strange flesh”. This “strange flesh” refers to the angels–the people of S&G were lusting after angels. Jude is probably referring to a contemporary problem–no doubt something practiced by a rival gnostic group (perhaps similar to the Bridal Chamber sacrament of the Valentinians, or a sexual interpretation of the gnostic doctrine of union with the Divine Double?).

At any rate, homosexuality is not what this verse refers to.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!
Really? Because Lot seemed to recognize how unnatural it was that men wanted to sleep with men and even offered his daughters so that this homosexual act would not occur. ?Furthermore, there was no indication that the people of Sodom recognized the angels as angels. I see more hermenuetical acrobatics above.
 
Grace & Peace!
Really? Because Lot seemed to recognize how unnatural it was that men wanted to sleep with men and even offered his daughters so that this homosexual act would not occur. ?Furthermore, there was no indication that the people of Sodom recognized the angels as angels. I see more hermenuetical acrobatics above.
East and West, no acrobatics are required. The text says “heteras sarkas”–different flesh, strange flesh, other flesh. The focus is on the otherness of the flesh. That’s pretty clear. If homosexuality were the focus, here, why would the author of Jude choose to focus on the different aspect of the flesh involved?

There may not be any indication that the people of Sodom recognized the angels as angels. But the writer of Jude clearly does–and he’s not interested in engaging in any form of literary criticism, investigating the motives of the inhabitants or what have you. Whether or not they looked like men is beside the point–they were angels, and the writer of Jude clearly believes that lusting after strange flesh (angels) is wrong. Intercourse with angels is wrong. Period. The book of Genesis makes this clear early on with the stories of the Nephilim. It takes up the theme again with the story of S&G. The writer of Jude applies it all to misdoings of gnostic heretics–read the letter: it is clearly addressing heterodox teachings and teachers.

It doesn’t take hermeneutical acrobatics to come to this reading. The various parallelisms bear each other out–as does the Greek.

Also, assuming that Lot was trying to avoid an occurrence of homosexual activity is stretching it a bit. He was protecting his guests from injury, as a good host would. He offered his daughters not so that the intended gang rape would at least be heterosexual, but because his honor as a host was on the line and his daughters could be sacrificed in order to preserve that honor.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!
 
Sodom had many sins, but homosexual definately was one of them since it was very common in pagan times and rituals. Homosexuality is one of the 4 sins that cry out to God
 
Also, assuming that Lot was trying to avoid an occurrence of homosexual activity is stretching it a bit. He was protecting his guests from injury, as a good host would. He offered his daughters not so that the intended gang rape would at least be heterosexual, but because his honor as a host was on the line and his daughters could be sacrificed in order to preserve that honor.

Deo Gratias!
I think your conclusion is more than streching it. When you take into account the general cultural and scriptural attitude towards homosexuality at the time, the idea that the men of Sodom were comdemned for Sodomoy makes a great deal of sense. In this context, an act that was viewed as unclean and vile was about to be performed. In order to avoid such a heinous act, Lot is willing to go so far as to offer his own daughters. If it was just inhospitality that was being committed then then why offer the daughters? Surely exposing one’s own daughter, the person a father is most charged with protecting, is a more heinous crime than inhospitality to men one does not know, grown men who were much more capable of protecting themselves than Lot’s own daughters. The only way that Lot’s acts can be seen as more acceptable than allowing then men to be raped over his own daughters is that illicet homosexual acts are always worse than illicit heterosexual ones. Why? Because homosexuality is a perversion of nature.
 
the idea that the men of Sodom were comdemned for Sodomoy makes a great deal of sense.
You just refuse to to give scripture any significance don’t you! Nowhere in God’s inspired word is this city even equated with homosexuality. And contrary to your above claim, “sodomy”, a 13th century invention, is mentioned NOWHERE in scripture. From Genesis to Revelation!
 
the idea that the men of Sodom were comdemned for Sodomoy makes a great deal of sense.
You just refuse to to give scripture any significance don’t you! Nowhere in God’s inspired word is this city even equated with homosexuality. And contrary to your above claim, “sodomy”, a 13th century invention, is mentioned NOWHERE in scripture. From Genesis to Revelation!
 
Grace & Peace

East and West, I certainly appreciate your position here. I’m not trying to undermine your conviction that homosexual acts are wrong. I’m arguing that you can’t come to that conclusion based on the story of Sodom, much less based on the witness of Jude’s epistle. You’re on much better ground simply asserting your obedience to the magisterium than you are arguing your point from the story of Sodom or Jude–they just don’t fully support your thesis. That’s all.
I think your conclusion is more than streching it. When you take into account the general cultural and scriptural attitude towards homosexuality at the time, the idea that the men of Sodom were comdemned for Sodomoy makes a great deal of sense.
It actually doesn’t make much sense if by “sodomy” you mean the understanding of the word which doesn’t develop until much much much later in the West. Scripture interprets scripture–if you want a culturally-appropriate understanding of the term “sodomy”, then you can do no better than Ezekiel’s definition already cited above–lack of hospitality, lack of concern for the poor, etc.

You may imply homosexuality and/or homosexual acts wherever you want in the story, but it just doesn’t work. If homosexual activity specifically is being condemned here, it’s actually not particularly clear–not as clear as popular lore would have it, at any rate. What you have here, first and foremost, is violation of one of the ancient world’s cardinal laws, and one of the laws that a nomadic people would certainly see as peculiarly important–be good to guests.
In this context, an act that was viewed as unclean and vile was about to be performed. In order to avoid such a heinous act, Lot is willing to go so far as to offer his own daughters.
Two things here–

1: the vileness of the act is inferred, insofar as that vileness refers to homosexuality. The law of Leviticus against “lying the lyings of a woman” was not yet delivered. As Paul writes, where there is no law, neither is there condemnation. You could argue that their behavior was against the Noahide laws given to all people, but homosexuality wouldn’t even have to enter the discussion if you consider the obvious–gang rape is certainly a wrong and a violation of the Noahide laws.

2: If what is being discussed here is homosexuality, why would Lot (who chose to live with these people and presumably knew exactly what they were up to) think that offering his daughters would do any good?

Because sexuality is not the point here–sexual violence, though, is. Lot is protecting his guests, not making sure that the people of Sodom commit the lesser (???) sin of heterosexual gang rape.

What I am saying is that Lot didn’t look out, think, “Oh no! A gay mob!” and try to convince that mob that heterosexual rape is less sinful than homosexual rape. Lot did not share our notions of sexuality–that his guests’ attackers were gay or straight was not a thought in his mind. What was foremost in his mind was protecting his guests against sexual violence. He opted to bear the brunt of that violence by offering his daughters–AS ANY GOOD HOST WOULD. The story supports this interpretation fully.
If it was just inhospitality that was being committed then then why offer the daughters? Surely exposing one’s own daughter, the person a father is most charged with protecting, is a more heinous crime than inhospitality to men one does not know, grown men who were much more capable of protecting themselves than Lot’s own daughters.
You’re inferring a lot here–specifically that the modern idea of the nuclear family was shared by the nomadic pre-modern Hebrew people of ancient Mesopotamia. Lot’s daughters were his property to do with what he pleased–moreover, daughters were less valuable than sons. You need only look at honor killings in the Middle East now to see what a father is capable of doing to a daughter if his honor has been impugned. Sacrificing his daughters to the mob was the least he could do in order to continue to be hospitable to his guests.
The only way that Lot’s acts can be seen as more acceptable than allowing then men to be raped over his own daughters is that illicet homosexual acts are always worse than illicit heterosexual ones. Why? Because homosexuality is a perversion of nature.
You are reading your personal (and your cultural) bias into the story. Lot is a paragon of hospitality here, in contrast to the raving mob. He offers his daughters to the mob because his daughters are not his guests, and because he believes the mob will be satisfied with the offer. Not because he appreciates heterosexual gang rape more than he does homosexual gang rape. Not because he thinks heterosexual gang rape is a lesser evil than homosexual gang rape. The mob raping his daughters is a lesser evil than the mob raping his guests. That’s just the way it is. Sexuality (particularly sexuality as we understand it today) really has nothing to do with the story.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!
 
. If you really believe that I’m going to hell, the strategy of abandonment and rejection basically secures my ticket there.
Exalt,
On this point, for whatever reason it is carried out, I have to say I agree with you.
 
Exalt,
On this point, for whatever reason it is carried out, I have to say I agree with you.
Exalt, you’re not going to hell. It doesn’t exist. The concept and name of hell was invented based on the Norse (Viking) godess Hel. Christians trying to convert the Norse people in Europe used their godess Hel (and her fiery underworld) as a scare tactic. They told the Norse people that is where they would go if they did not believe in their leader Jesus!
 
Grace & Peace

East and West, I certainly appreciate your position here. I’m not trying to undermine your conviction that homosexual acts are wrong. I’m arguing that you can’t come to that conclusion based on the story of Sodom, much less based on the witness of Jude’s epistle. You’re on much better ground simply asserting your obedience to the magisterium than you are arguing your point from the story of Sodom or Jude–they just don’t fully support your thesis. That’s all.

It actually doesn’t make much sense if by “sodomy” you mean the understanding of the word which doesn’t develop until much much much later in the West. Scripture interprets scripture–if you want a culturally-appropriate understanding of the term “sodomy”, then you can do no better than Ezekiel’s definition already cited above–lack of hospitality, lack of concern for the poor, etc.

You may imply homosexuality and/or homosexual acts wherever you want in the story, but it just doesn’t work. If homosexual activity specifically is being condemned here, it’s actually not particularly clear–not as clear as popular lore would have it, at any rate. What you have here, first and foremost, is violation of one of the ancient world’s cardinal laws, and one of the laws that a nomadic people would certainly see as peculiarly important–be good to guests.

Two things here–

1: the vileness of the act is inferred, insofar as that vileness refers to homosexuality. The law of Leviticus against “lying the lyings of a woman” was not yet delivered. As Paul writes, where there is no law, neither is there condemnation. You could argue that their behavior was against the Noahide laws given to all people, but homosexuality wouldn’t even have to enter the discussion if you consider the obvious–gang rape is certainly a wrong and a violation of the Noahide laws.

2: If what is being discussed here is homosexuality, why would Lot (who chose to live with these people and presumably knew exactly what they were up to) think that offering his daughters would do any good?

Because sexuality is not the point here–sexual violence, though, is. Lot is protecting his guests, not making sure that the people of Sodom commit the lesser (???) sin of heterosexual gang rape.

What I am saying is that Lot didn’t look out, think, “Oh no! A gay mob!” and try to convince that mob that heterosexual rape is less sinful than homosexual rape. Lot did not share our notions of sexuality–that his guests’ attackers were gay or straight was not a thought in his mind. What was foremost in his mind was protecting his guests against sexual violence. He opted to bear the brunt of that violence by offering his daughters–AS ANY GOOD HOST WOULD. The story supports this interpretation fully.

You’re inferring a lot here–specifically that the modern idea of the nuclear family was shared by the nomadic pre-modern Hebrew people of ancient Mesopotamia. Lot’s daughters were his property to do with what he pleased–moreover, daughters were less valuable than sons. You need only look at honor killings in the Middle East now to see what a father is capable of doing to a daughter if his honor has been impugned. Sacrificing his daughters to the mob was the least he could do in order to continue to be hospitable to his guests.

You are reading your personal (and your cultural) bias into the story. Lot is a paragon of hospitality here, in contrast to the raving mob. He offers his daughters to the mob because his daughters are not his guests, and because he believes the mob will be satisfied with the offer. Not because he appreciates heterosexual gang rape more than he does homosexual gang rape. Not because he thinks heterosexual gang rape is a lesser evil than homosexual gang rape. The mob raping his daughters is a lesser evil than the mob raping his guests. That’s just the way it is. Sexuality (particularly sexuality as we understand it today) really has nothing to do with the story.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!
*Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper. *

I enjoyed your interpretation of scripture. I really did. 🙂

Daddums 🙂
 
Grace & Peace!

East and West, no acrobatics are required. The text says “heteras sarkas”–different flesh, strange flesh, other flesh. The focus is on the otherness of the flesh. That’s pretty clear. If homosexuality were the focus, here, why would the author of Jude choose to focus on the different aspect of the flesh involved?

There may not be any indication that the people of Sodom recognized the angels as angels. But the writer of Jude clearly does–and he’s not interested in engaging in any form of literary criticism, investigating the motives of the inhabitants or what have you. Whether or not they looked like men is beside the point–they were angels, and the writer of Jude clearly believes that lusting after strange flesh (angels) is wrong. Intercourse with angels is wrong. Period. The book of Genesis makes this clear early on with the stories of the Nephilim. It takes up the theme again with the story of S&G. The writer of Jude applies it all to misdoings of gnostic heretics–read the letter: it is clearly addressing heterodox teachings and teachers.

It doesn’t take hermeneutical acrobatics to come to this reading. The various parallelisms bear each other out–as does the Greek.

Also, assuming that Lot was trying to avoid an occurrence of homosexual activity is stretching it a bit. He was protecting his guests from injury, as a good host would. ** He offered his daughters not so that the intended gang rape would at least be heterosexual, but because his honor as a host was on the line and his daughters could be sacrificed in order to preserve that honor.**
Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!
How can we consider Lot to be holy when he’d rather have his daughters raped than be thought of as a bad host? It sounds like he is the last person who should be talking about the sins of others. Yes, it was a different time, but how many times have I seen on this thread that right and wrong don’t change? So, which is it?

Also, Lev. is full of rules we break all the time, as was mentioned by another poster. Why focus on this one? And homosexual activity during pagan rituals isn’t what we’re talking about in modern times, so why compare the two?

Sorry for all the questions, but reading this thread brought them to mind. :confused:
 
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