Homosexuality And Original Sin

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Errham

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This is something that I’ve never quite understood. Catholics tend to say that people aren’t born with homosexual tendencies. And yet, due to original sin, everyone is born with a natural inclination to sin - to lie, to use violence, to commit adultery, to murder. So why can’t someone be born with a natural inclination to homosexuality as well?
 
This is something that I’ve never quite understood. Catholics tend to say that people aren’t born with homosexual tendencies. And yet, due to original sin, everyone is born with a natural inclination to sin - to lie, to use violence, to commit adultery, to murder. So why can’t someone be born with a natural inclination to homosexuality as well?
Catholics tend to say a lot of things, but from the catechism:

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

It is not the tendency that is the sin. It is the behavior.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
 
This is something that I’ve never quite understood. Catholics tend to say that people aren’t born with homosexual tendencies. And yet, due to original sin, everyone is born with a natural inclination to sin - to lie, to use violence, to commit adultery, to murder. So why can’t someone be born with a natural inclination to homosexuality as well?
I’ve noticed that many American Catholics wherever they are aware of it or not are often influenced on this topic by Evangelical Protestantism, as many know it’s opinion on several topics far better than they know the wording of the catechism.

That said there are Catholics with endorsement from other Catholic bodies (catholic.com/profiles/dr-joseph-nicolosi) such as this fellow from NARTH who actively for campaign and promote the idea that nobody is born homosexual and it is a mental disorder that may be cured so…🤷
 
This is something that I’ve never quite understood. Catholics tend to say that people aren’t born with homosexual tendencies. **And yet, due to original sin, everyone is born with a natural inclination to sin - to lie, to use violence, to commit adultery, to murder. **So why can’t someone be born with a natural inclination to homosexuality as well?
Some Catholics may say so (I don’t), but I think the much more important part is what you say after that - that we all have a natural inclination to sin, and that natural inclination does not excuse us from culpability when we do sin.

The problem is that many people in the so-called “gay rights” movement put a lot of emphasis on being “born this way,” as if that changed everything, when really it doesn’t matter. We know that some mental disorders run in families, as well as tendencies towards certain addictions like alcoholism (sometimes entire populations are more likely to be susceptible to those issues). That doesn’t mean that when those issues manifest that there isn’t something wrong.

There is also conflicting evidence about how homosexual tendencies or other issues involving objectively sinful behavior originate. But ultimately, it doesn’t matter, because we can use our reason to determine that the behavior is not good and should not be engaged in regardless of why it originated.
 
This is something that I’ve never quite understood. Catholics tend to say that people aren’t born with homosexual tendencies. And yet, due to original sin, everyone is born with a natural inclination to sin - to lie, to use violence, to commit adultery, to murder. So why can’t someone be born with a natural inclination to homosexuality as well?
Sin is never natural, it’s always disordered, unjust, etc. it’s natural only in the sense that man naturally falls into it once communion with God is broken, which occurred at the Fall. And this separated state, itself, is an unjust one.
 
Catholics tend to say a lot of things, but from the catechism:

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

It is not the tendency that is the sin. It is the behavior.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
You have accessed the previous (1993) edition of the Catechism. The current one says:

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

I believe the Church decided to make no statement about the “nature vs. nurture” aspect of condition in the later 1997 edition. Instead, it makes the statement that the inclination to same sex sexual acts is disordered by virtue of the fact that these acts themselves are intrinsically disordered (ie. “always wrong to choose”).
 
Catholics tend to say a lot of things, but from the catechism:

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

It is not the tendency that is the sin. It is the behavior.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
You are quoting from an old Catechism.

The current version does not include the words "They do not choose their homosexual condition;

After much study and consultation, 2358 was corrected and now reads:
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
There is no scientific or medical evidence proving that homosexuals are “born that way”.
 
You have accessed the previous (1993) edition of the Catechism. The current one says:

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

I believe the Church decided to make no statement about the “nature vs. nurture” aspect of condition in the later 1997 edition. Instead, it makes the statement that the inclination to same sex sexual acts is disordered by virtue of the fact that these acts themselves are intrinsically disordered (ie. “always wrong to choose”).
👍
 
It is true that original sin causes all of us to be inclined toward sin, to be inclined to do the wrong rather than the right, and in that sense we are all born disordered.

The inclination toward homosexual acts is not different in kind from the inclination to contraception, to fornication, to adultery, to lust, to serial monogamy, to treat sex as merely recreational.

The sexual revolution unleashed and enabled all of those in a more intense way, and the culture adopted all forms of disordered sex as normal. And by disordered sex, I don’t mean just homosexuality. A recent article argues that hyphenated sexuality of any kind, including heterosexuality, amounts to a distortion of human nature, and leads to a rejection of Christian values. Advocates of same sex unions simply adopt the commonly accepted values of the sexual revolution and make them their own.

“To claim that homosexual behavior is wrong would be to hold others to a moral standard to which one’s own heterosexual behavior does not conform. Whether bi-, homo-, hetero-, all forms of hyphenated sexuality want the same thing: sex without moral or generative limits, relationships without cultural or familial constraints. We are in flight from sexuality and we are using sex as the vehicle for that flight.”
“The real victim of hyphenated sexuality is not the lesbian lobbyist or the gay picketer. The real victim is the youngest and most innocent among us. Free love costs, and children pay.”

The full article can be found here.
 
Catholics tend to say a lot of things, but from the catechism:

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

It is not the tendency that is the sin. It is the behavior.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
The CCC was well thought out on this subject. Homosexuals do not choose their condition. That really says a lot and needs to be emphasized.
 
The CCC was well thought out on this subject. Homosexuals do not choose their condition. That really says a lot and needs to be emphasized.
By the same token, do adulterers, fornicators, sex addicts, sexual fetishists, those inclined toward anger or theft or any other tendency, choose their condition?
 
By the same token, do adulterers, fornicators, sex addicts, sexual fetishists, those inclined toward anger or theft or any other tendency, choose their condition?
Only God knows for sure, but the sins that you listed above also imply a fair degree of limitation. Not that our free will is eliminated, but lessened.
 
Only God knows for sure, but the sins that you listed above also imply a fair degree of limitation. Not that our free will is eliminated, but lessened.
Yes, I agree. Were it not for the concupiscence which we inherit from original sin our will would not be so inclined to disordered tendencies of all kinds. I think that a tendency toward same sex attraction is not so different than all those other tendencies which inhibit our cooperation with grace.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coachdennis View Post
Catholics tend to say a lot of things, but from the catechism:
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
It is not the tendency that is the sin. It is the behavior.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
The CCC was well thought out on this subject. Homosexuals do not choose their condition. That really says a lot and needs to be emphasized.
Robert, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994 First Edition was NOT well thought out on this subject.

On September 8, 1997, Pope John Paul II promulgated the Second Edition of the English Translation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Because the First Edition needed 103 changes (corrections/amendments) to the English text. This was to ensure that it harmonized with the official Latin text that was promulgated by Pope John Paul II on the same date.

The words “They do not choose their homosexual condition.” were removed because they opposed Catholic teachings. As such, Catholic and non-Catholic who are quoting those words, are using an old Catechism that is outdated and which contains errors. They should throw away that version of the Catechism and get a copy of the Second Edition to ensure that what they quote is in harmony with Catholic doctrines and teachings.
 
Robert, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994 First Edition was NOT well thought out on this subject.

On September 8, 1997, Pope John Paul II promulgated the Second Edition of the English Translation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Because the First Edition needed 103 changes (corrections/amendments) to the English text. This was to ensure that it harmonized with the official Latin text that was promulgated by Pope John Paul II on the same date.

The words “They do not choose their homosexual condition.” were removed because they opposed Catholic teachings. As such, Catholic and non-Catholic who are quoting those words, are using an old Catechism that is outdated and which contains errors. They should throw away that version of the Catechism and get a copy of the Second Edition to ensure that what they quote is in harmony with Catholic doctrines and teachings.
Zoltan, do you have a reference that gives the informed basis for the changes made between the two editions of the Catechism, or is the reason you have for this specific one someone’s opinion? Which Catholic Teaching was opposed by the removed statement?
 
Robert, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994 First Edition was NOT well thought out on this subject.

On September 8, 1997, Pope John Paul II promulgated the Second Edition of the English Translation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Because the First Edition needed 103 changes (corrections/amendments) to the English text. This was to ensure that it harmonized with the official Latin text that was promulgated by Pope John Paul II on the same date.

The words “They do not choose their homosexual condition.” were removed because they opposed Catholic teachings. As such, Catholic and non-Catholic who are quoting those words, are using an old Catechism that is outdated and which contains errors. They should throw away that version of the Catechism and get a copy of the Second Edition to ensure that what they quote is in harmony with Catholic doctrines and teachings.
Thanks for bringing that to my attention! I still believe, however, that the culpability for many homosexuals to have been lessened due to the nature of its acquisition.
 
Zoltan, do you have a reference that gives the informed basis for the changes made between the two editions of the Catechism, or is the reason you have for this specific one someone’s opinion? Which Catholic Teaching was opposed by the removed statement?
There is not a lot of “history” about the changes in the “older version” and the new.

For a list of all the changes…scborromeo.org/ccc/updates.htm

A good brief on the subject is…catholicdoors.com/faq/qu608.htm

The Catholic Teaching opposed to the statement can be found in the 1986 document ,“The Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons.” Published by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. This is where the wording “This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.” originally appeared.

I have it from a very UN-official Vatican source that no one knows how the "They do not choose their homosexual condition"…got translated as such.

Errors in the Catechism are not new and with so many translations…things slip by.
lifesitenews.com/news/youth-catechism-also-wrong-on-euthanasia-other-religions-vatican-admits/

The change, or correction of 2358 must have been very important…or it would not have happened.
 
Robert, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994 First Edition was NOT well thought out on this subject.

On September 8, 1997, Pope John Paul II promulgated the Second Edition of the English Translation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Because the First Edition needed 103 changes (corrections/amendments) to the English text. This was to ensure that it harmonized with the official Latin text that was promulgated by Pope John Paul II on the same date.

The words “They do not choose their homosexual condition.” were removed because they opposed Catholic teachings. As such, Catholic and non-Catholic who are quoting those words, are using an old Catechism that is outdated and which contains errors. They should throw away that version of the Catechism and get a copy of the Second Edition to ensure that what they quote is in harmony with Catholic doctrines and teachings.
That is incorrect, the First Edition was a translation of the French provisional copy, it was not the official version, the Latin one is. The First Edition Catechism of the Catholic Church in English is a translation of the rough draft, the Second Edition is the translation of the published Latin version and is thus the true First Edition.

The “Second” Edition text made it clear that the Church has no official statement on the etiology of homosexual whereas the problem with the “First” Edition is that is makes one thinks the etiology is settled which it is not.
 
Thanks for bringing that to my attention! I still believe, however, that the culpability for many homosexuals to have been lessened due to the nature of its acquisition.
So…homosexual activity is not as bad as it used to be…???😦
 
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