Homosexuality and The Old Testament. How to defend the faith

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Freddy said:
Come now. The punishment for homosexuality in the OT was death. As was the punishment for many other acts. It was suggested that ‘times have changed’ and we view things with a more contemporary view of morality. That’s not really a debatabke point I would suggest.

I mentioned that upstream because I am constantly told in this forum that morality isn’t relative.
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OH come now, I did not say anything about times changing from the point of view of God over sex when unmarried and same sex acts now did I?

God has not changed His mind on this, still no sex outside marriage and no same sex sex.

Whatever others tell you on this forum is for them to tell you.
 
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I meant the death penalty of homosexuals in the OT. Sorry if you misunderstood
 
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OurLadyofSorrows said:
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Freddy:
Come now. The punishment for homosexuality in the OT was death. As was the punishment for many other acts. It was suggested that ‘times have changed’ and we view things with a more contemporary view of morality. That’s not really a debatabke point I would suggest.

I mentioned that upstream because I am constantly told in this forum that morality isn’t relative.
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OH come now, I did not say anything about times changing from the point of view of God over sex when unmarried and same sex acts now did I?

God has not changed His mind on this, still no sex outside marriage and no same sex sex.

Whatever others tell you on this forum is for them to tell you.
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The point being made (and the question being asked) is: Did God consider it to be more sinful in biblical times or was it just us that made the call? Was it God’s will that we stone homosexuals? And if it was, why did it change?
 
Yeah but making the assumption that the bible was written by men and has faults its a danger to other things. Like how do we know if ALL the bible is false? Sk i disagree with that one.
 
Freddy said:
And can we agree that sexual acts with which you might not agree are not limited to gay people. Or just men.
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Sexual intimacy between two people of the same sex is morally wrong, no matter which act you are trying to justify, no matter what other conditions are present. Sexual intimacy is morally justifiable only in the proper context of sexual intimacy, which is between a man and a woman who are in truth married to each other. Within that context alone, can the morality of sexual acts have the possibility of righteousness.
 
fide said:
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Freddy:
And can we agree that sexual acts with which you might not agree are not limited to gay people. Or just men.
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Sexual intimacy between two people of the same sex is morally wrong, no matter which act you are trying to justify, no matter what other conditions are present. Sexual intimacy is morally justifiable only in the proper context of sexual intimacy, which is between a man and a woman who are in truth married to each other. Within that context alone, can the morality of sexual acts have the possibility of righteousness.
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I was waiting for a ‘…because’. But you missd it out. You gave no reasons. You simply stated an opinion. There was no justification. I therefore reject it entirely.

And to save you wasting your time, if you do present a reason and it’s a religious one then it won’t apply to me. Yes, I appreciate that I’m on a Catholic forum but you have to appreciate that your arguments will either only be relevant to Catholics (and not to me) or, to have any weight in the world outside Catholicism (and to me), must apply to all.
 
Freddy said:
I was waiting for a ‘…because’. But you missd it out. You gave no reasons. You simply stated an opinion. There was no justification. I therefore reject it entirely.

And to save you wasting your time, if you do present a reason and it’s a religious one then it won’t apply to me. Yes, I appreciate that I’m on a Catholic forum but you have to appreciate that your arguments will either only be relevant to Catholics (and not to me) or, to have any weight in the world outside Catholicism (and to me), must apply to all.
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Thank you for inviting me to not waste my time! I appreciate that. I can understand your position of supposing that Catholic advice is relevant only for Catholics - this age is heavily weighted toward subjectivism and relativism concerning truth. (As in: “Your ‘truth’ may work for for you, but my ‘truth’ is working fine for me, thanks anyway.”).

Once I was ‘there’ too, and I must say, the most important event in my life may have been the moment when the reality was made real - I realized - that there IS TRUTH. TRUTH exists, whether I ever come to know it or appreciate it or realize it or even care about it - still, and eternally, TRUTH simply IS.

From that moment, I knew I had to find what is TRUE. Everything was different, after that.
 
Thats not my point. It was the Holy Spirit guiding them. You cant say the one part of the bible can be flawd while the other not. Either its all correct or not
 
If there’s no sex involved, and no sexual fantasy, how it is a “homosexual relationship”?

I loved my best girlfriend in high school. We did not have sex. We did not consider having sex, or fantasize about it. Was it a homosexual relationship?

St. John Henry Newman loved his best male friend, with whom he lived. They did not have sex. There is no evidence that they even considered the idea. Yet St. John Newman was so distraught at the man’s death, he had himself buried in the same grave, expressing that it was his fondest wish. Was that a homosexual relationship?

Great love with no sex between persons of the same gender is very possible. Even saints are capable of it.

You seem to have some conflation of “love” with “sexual activity”.
 
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“Thought crime”?

Jesus, in Scripture, is the one who taught that lustful fantasies of sex, “lust in the heart”, were as bad as committing the actual act.

Matthew 5:28:
But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart.
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The same would apply if you were a woman looking at a man who wasn’t her spouse to lust after him, or a woman looking at a woman to lust after her, or a man looking at a man to lust after him.

Are you Catholic? This teaching is very familiar to Catholics. It’s part of Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount.
 
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Well, you claimed that what I was doing reflected “the American way” of today.

When it actually came from Jesus 2000 years ago, centuries before “America” existed.

. . . Do I follow Jesus’ teaching, or do I follow the ideas of Jan10000, . . . who criticizes Jesus and criticizes me for following the teachings of Jesus? . . .
 
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I’m sorry, but I am having doubts that you are posting on the forum in good faith, since in one of your previous posts you appear to directly insult the Church.

I am also getting messages from Discourse that I’ve replied to you too many times already.

I would urge you that if you are truly interested in Catholicism, that you read and study the Catechism and the Bible a bit more, because you don’t seem to have a very good grasp on the teachings, and that makes it hard to have a discussion.

Have a pleasant evening!
 
fide said:
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Freddy:
I was waiting for a ‘…because’. But you missd it out. You gave no reasons. You simply stated an opinion. There was no justification. I therefore reject it entirely.

And to save you wasting your time, if you do present a reason and it’s a religious one then it won’t apply to me. Yes, I appreciate that I’m on a Catholic forum but you have to appreciate that your arguments will either only be relevant to Catholics (and not to me) or, to have any weight in the world outside Catholicism (and to me), must apply to all.
Click to expand...
Thank you for inviting me to not waste my time! I appreciate that. I can understand your position of supposing that Catholic advice is relevant only for Catholics - this age is heavily weighted toward subjectivism and relativism concerning truth. (As in: “Your ‘truth’ may work for for you, but my ‘truth’ is working fine for me, thanks anyway.”).

Once I was ‘there’ too, and I must say, the most important event in my life may have been the moment when the reality was made real - I realized - that there IS TRUTH. TRUTH exists, whether I ever come to know it or appreciate it or realize it or even care about it - still, and eternally, TRUTH simply IS.

From that moment, I knew I had to find what is TRUE. Everything was different, after that.
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Yes, but something is true because…

You need to fill in the ellipses or you’re just accepting it without a reason.
 
jan10000 said:
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Tis_Bearself:
I would urge you that if you are truly interested in Catholicism, that you read and study the Catechism and the Bible a bit more, because you don’t seem to have a very good grasp on the teachings, and that makes it hard to have a discussion.
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In America, we do not punish people for their thoughts.
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No country in the world does that as far as I know. The Church doesn’t teach thoughts should receive punishment either. You’re getting the concept of sin and crime mixed up and are all over the place.
 
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No they are not. Bible scholars have defended contradictions from critics since forever. What parts did exactly have been identified as “forgeries”?
 
Emeraldlady said:
jan10000:
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Tis_Bearself:
I would urge you that if you are truly interested in Catholicism, that you read and study the Catechism and the Bible a bit more, because you don’t seem to have a very good grasp on the teachings, and that makes it hard to have a discussion.
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In America, we do not punish people for their thoughts.
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No country in the world does that as far as I know. The Church doesn’t teach thoughts should receive punishment either. You’re getting the concept of sin and crime mixed up and are all over the place.
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If you spent all day thinking about committing adultry with your neighbour, would you feel the need to confess that?
 
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