Homosexuality and The Old Testament. How to defend the faith

[o_mlly]

For example, if the perverted faculty argument were valid, sex would not be pleasurable.

Does not the glutton take pleasure in every bite? The drunkard in every glass? The pleasure derived from an act is not a good source in determining the morality of an act. We ought not be ruled by our passions, rather by our reason.

The pseudonyms of those who apologize for active homosexuals are all too familiar. They hear the dog whistle of another OP on homosexuality on CA and show up with the same tired, old arguments.

I suspect they are of two types; both biased towards being strident apologists for the morality of homosexual acts. Either they are themselves active homosexuals or have a family member who is. They will not be persuaded by reason as their motive force is feeling. We must trust the Holy Spirit will reach them in ways unknown to us.

 

[meltzerboy2]

There are Jewish interpretations that the cardinal sin of the people of Sodom and Gommorah was NOT homosexuality but rather indifference to and mistreatment of the poor. People were entrenched in their own greedy, materialistic lives with no compassion or empathy for others and no desire to repent of their evil ways. That, rather than homosexual behavior, was their punishable crime.

 

[Nickos]

Isn’t the ending of Mark acknowledged as an interpolation?

Agreed. In my greek bible it isnt though. So the earliest greek manuscripts didnt have it.

 

[Nickos]

Johannine Comma and acknowledge interpolation as well?

Never heard of that one. And never seen it in my bible.

 

[Nickos]

As for forgeries, aren’t the vast majority of the new testament epistles by Paul known to be forgeries?
I think scholars agree only 6 of Paul’s letters were actually written by him.

Maybe he did maybe he didnt . You werent there.i werent there. Maybe another Christian wrote them. How is it a forgery ? Maybe he listened paul saying these things and wrote them down. Maybe he got it by someone else. As i know we do t know the authors of the book. Maybe they were christians gentiles who heard the gospel by the apostles and wrote it down

 

[Nickos]

like the two separate geneologies of Jesus.

Basically the Jews were so proud that theu didnt want to accept a mere man as a messsiah. They thought the man would be of royal blood ignoring Isaiahs sayings that he will come as a mere servant. So basically the genealogies were given to show that Jesus was of royal blood so at least the jews whould be more easy to the gospel. But geneologies doesnt really matter because Jesus had no earthly father

 

[Nickos]

scholars have not defended the contradictions in the Bible.

Theres an entire section in scholarship know as apologetics. So i dunno what are you talking about.

 

[Emeraldlady]

So if you think evil thoughts then in the secular world…we don’t care. Just don’t act on them. But in your world…

Human law serves the common good ie the good of human society. It doesn’t have access to thoughts. God and the Communion of Saints which are a ‘society’ built up in faith, hope, love are invested in the human beings inner holy life. That’s why our inner being needs to be pure and nourished and also indicted when it’s faithless, hopeless and loveless.

 

[Freddy]

So you are prejudiced against remorseless mass murderers? Do you therefore believe that the right to life is true, and should be respected and honored? Is it true because… just because it is true? Self-evident? Or must you find a reason to justify it? How do you justify “the right to life”? Or, IOW, “Oh yeah? Who says so?”

Again, I’m not trying to be flippant - I’m only trying to understand the foundation for your beliefs.

Would you want to be killed? Obviously not. Would you want a family member killed? Obviously not. And using your God given empathy you’d know that everyone else would feel the same. So it might be a good idea to prevent someone killing for no reason.

Now whether you’d decide to execute him or not is another matter. I’d say no. But if he’d killed my family then I’d want some quality time with the guy.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Would you want to be killed? Obviously not. Would you want a family member killed? Obviously not. And using your God given empathy you’d know that everyone else would feel the same. So it might be a good idea to prevent someone killing for no reason.

That’s just based on what people want to be true.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Would you want to be killed? Obviously not. Would you want a family member killed? Obviously not. And using your God given empathy you’d know that everyone else would feel the same. So it might be a good idea to prevent someone killing for no reason.

That’s just based on what people want to be true.

Are you saying that my desire not to be killed is something I just want to be true? That makes no sense.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Are you saying that my desire not to be killed is something I just want to be true? That makes no sense.

Yeah, if it’s only source is you.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Are you saying that my desire not to be killed is something I just want to be true? That makes no sense.

Yeah, if it’s only source is you.

C’mon, Vanitas. I think you might be arguing for the sake of it. I can’t see how it’s possible to argue against a proposition (as if it needed to made made in the first place) that everyone has a preference not to be killed.

But let me know if you find an exception to that.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

I can’t see how it’s possible to argue against a proposition (as if it needed to made made in the first place) that everyone has a preference not to be killed.

The are two possibilities, their preference either matters or it it doesn’t and either one has the possiblilty to be true.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

I can’t see how it’s possible to argue against a proposition (as if it needed to made made in the first place) that everyone has a preference not to be killed.

The are two possibilities, their preference either matters or it it doesn’t and both could possibly be true.

Our preference not to be killed obviously matters. It means that we try to prevent people from killing us. And try to stop them killing other people as well.

Anyway, when the conversation reaches a rock bottom where I have to argue that it’s preferable to be alive rather than not, then it’s time to move on…

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Our preference not to be killed obviously matters. It means that we try to prevent people from killing us. And try to stop them killing other people as well.

That just means people do what they want and nothing more. That also opens up for the possiblility for the latter to be untrue and things aren’t really that self-evident.

 

[fide]

using your God given empathy

Even though your described reasoning is self-referential, still, the reference also to “God given empathy” seems close enough to “self-evident” truths. At least they are compatible. If you were an atheist, I’d be very concerned. Completely self-referential moral reasoning can lead to truly horrible consequences - I.e Hitler.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

using your God given empathy

Even though your described reasoning is self-referential, still, the reference also to “God given empathy” seems close enough to “self-evident” truths. At least they are compatible. If you were an atheist, I’d be very concerned. Completely self-referential moral reasoning can lead to truly horrible consequences - I.e Hitler.

I don’t understand the point you are making. Empathy allows us to appreciate what others are feeling and give us the opportunity to base moral actions on people other than ourselves.

It’s the very opposite of a self referential morality.

 

[fide]

By self-referential I meant the self was the basis, the standard:

“Would you want to be killed? Obviously not. Would you want a family member killed? Obviously not. And using your God given empathy you’d know that everyone else would feel the same. So it might be a good idea to prevent someone killing for no reason.”

Another standard could be, for example, “the law”, or “social standard”, or - God. As in, every human being was created by God, and in the Divine Image, for eternal purposes - intended for eternal life. God gave life, God takes life. God commanded capital punishment in particular for the crime of murder.
[ Gen 9:5 For your lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning; of every beast I will require it and of man; of every man’s brother I will require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.]

A big problem with a subjective (me) and not an objective (God, or Absolute Truth) standard is illustrated by every psychopath, having no empathy and no care for others. He sees no inherent problem at all with killing any he pleases.

 

[Thorolfr]

The pseudonyms of those who apologize for active homosexuals are all too familiar. They hear the dog whistle of another OP on homosexuality on CA and show up with the same tired, old arguments.

I suspect they are of two types; both biased towards being strident apologists for the morality of homosexual acts. Either they are themselves active homosexuals or have a family member who is. They will not be persuaded by reason as their motive force is feeling. We must trust the Holy Spirit will reach them in ways unknown to us.

You response seem rather dismissive and lacking in empathy. You might not agree with the arguments of gay men and lesbians and their friends and family members, but I don’t think they’re “tired, old arguments” or arguments that are lacking in reason. I think, for example, that it’s very reasonable for anyone, including gay people, to want an intimate partner to share their life with and not have to live alone. There are many difficult things that some of us are having to do right now like care for aged parents, a sick relative, economic hardship, etc. in the middle of a pandemic. I don’t know how I would have made it through all this alone without the love and support of my same-sex partner. And I have few friends or other family members that I could have looked to for help.