Homosexuality and The Old Testament. How to defend the faith

[Emeraldlady]

Emeraldlady:

Of course I would. But I don’t expect to be arrested for it.

But the church would consider it to be wrong. Would you not receive punishment from God if you didn’t confess and asked for forgiveness?

Being formed by Pope St JPII’s teaching series of 1999 our understanding of the nature of punishment for sin has developed such that,

God is the infinitely good and merciful Father. But man, called to respond to him freely, can unfortunately choose to reject his love and forgiveness once and for all, thus separating himself for ever from joyful communion with him. It is precisely this tragic situation that Christian doctrine explains when it speaks of eternal damnation or hell. It is not a punishment imposed externally by God but a development of premises already set by people in this life. The very dimension of unhappiness which this obscure condition brings can in a certain way be sensed in the light of some of the terrible experiences we have suffered which, as is commonly said, make life “hell”.

We will certainly face the Judge but we’ll recognise that that spark of God within us will have been diminished by our own free will.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Emeraldlady:

Of course I would. But I don’t expect to be arrested for it.

But the church would consider it to be wrong. Would you not receive punishment from God if you didn’t confess and asked for forgiveness?

Being formed by Pope St JPII’s teaching series of 1999 our understanding of the nature of punishment for sin has developed such that,

God is the infinitely good and merciful Father. But man, called to respond to him freely, can unfortunately choose to reject his love and forgiveness once and for all, thus separating himself for ever from joyful communion with him. It is precisely this tragic situation that Christian doctrine explains when it speaks of eternal damnation or hell. It is not a punishment imposed externally by God but a development of premises already set by people in this life. The very dimension of unhappiness which this obscure condition brings can in a certain way be sensed in the light of some of the terrible experiences we have suffered which, as is commonly said, make life “hell”.

We will certainly face the Judge but we’ll recognise that that spark of God within us will have been diminished by our own free will.

So you’d expect punishment. God might show mercy but it’s a punishable offence as He is concerned.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Emeraldlady:

Freddy:

Emeraldlady:

Of course I would. But I don’t expect to be arrested for it.

But the church would consider it to be wrong. Would you not receive punishment from God if you didn’t confess and asked for forgiveness?

Being formed by Pope St JPII’s teaching series of 1999 our understanding of the nature of punishment for sin has developed such that,

God is the infinitely good and merciful Father. But man, called to respond to him freely, can unfortunately choose to reject his love and forgiveness once and for all, thus separating himself for ever from joyful communion with him. It is precisely this tragic situation that Christian doctrine explains when it speaks of eternal damnation or hell. It is not a punishment imposed externally by God but a development of premises already set by people in this life. The very dimension of unhappiness which this obscure condition brings can in a certain way be sensed in the light of some of the terrible experiences we have suffered which, as is commonly said, make life “hell”.

We will certainly face the Judge but we’ll recognise that that spark of God within us will have been diminished by our own free will.

So you’d expect punishment. God might show mercy but it’s a punishable offence as He is concerned.

It is not a punishment imposed externally by God but a development of premises already set by people in this life .

That is saying that unlike human law where people are punished for committing crime, we realise that by our sins we imprison ourselves. God illuminates us by His love and we dull that light by sin. His grace of forgiveness brings us in the light again. That is a development in the doctrine of Last Things (heaven, hell and purgatory).

 

[Freddy]

That is saying that unlike human law where people are punished for committing crime, we realise that by our sins we imprison ourselves.

So you suffer a punishment. I think that’s all we were trying to do. Reach agreement on the fact that one can’t spend all one’s time thinking about adultry without some negative consequences.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Emeraldlady:

That is saying that unlike human law where people are punished for committing crime, we realise that by our sins we imprison ourselves.

So you suffer a punishment. I think that’s all we were trying to do. Reach agreement on the fact that one can’t spend all one’s time thinking about adultry without some negative consequences.

A self inflicted punishment you could say. Like the emotional and physical consequences of harbouring thoughts of vengeance or self importance or despair. They are self imposed punishment.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Emeraldlady:

That is saying that unlike human law where people are punished for committing crime, we realise that by our sins we imprison ourselves.

So you suffer a punishment. I think that’s all we were trying to do. Reach agreement on the fact that one can’t spend all one’s time thinking about adultry without some negative consequences.

A self inflicted punishment you culd say. Like the emotional and physical consequences of harbouring thoughts of vengeance or self importance or despair. They are self imposed punishment.

It might be prudent to note that all punishments are effectively self inflicted. If I steal something and am incarcerated for that act then I have no-one to blame except myself.

I’ve always been bemused by those who say, for example, that God doesn’t send you to hell. You do it yourself by sinning. Except that someone makes a decision to send you down if you’ve broken the law. Society has agreed on a punishment and a judge enacts that punishment. It’s your fault that you have to endure the punishement but you’re definitely not doing it yourself.

Same with sin. Do the crime and do the time. But the time is determined by God.

So if you think evil thoughts then in the secular world…we don’t care. Just don’t act on them. But in your world…

 

[Nickos]

Nope. As long as you dont do it. Plus Confession is a choise. You can never even go and after commiting adyltery for example if you fill guilty and say God forgive you are good.

 

[Freddy]

Nope. As long as you dont do it. Plus Confession is a choise. You can never even go and after commiting adyltery for example if you fill guilty and say God forgive you are good.

“I’ve looked on a lot of women with lust. I’ve committed adultery in my heart many times.” Jimmy Carter.

 

[Elf01]

I find that thought process repugnant.
In America, we do not punish people for their thoughts.

I’m pretty sure, based on all your posts that you find the Catholic Church in general repugnant.

 

[fide]

Yes, but something is true because …

You need to fill in the ellipses or you’re just accepting it without a reason.

How do you understand the concept of truth that is “self-evident”? For example,

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
(Preamble to the Declaration of Independence, separating American states from England)

Do you hold these - or any - truths to be “self-evident”?

 

[fide]

I find that thought process repugnant.
In America, we do not punish people for their thoughts.

In sub-groups in America we now do try zealously to shame people, to marginalize people, to make them feel terrible about themselves, for certain “hateful thinking” - for example racism, fantasies of pedophilia, sexism ,… any kind of politically incorrect thinking puts one in the “deplorable” category, almost making one a non-person, in the judgment of the “woke.”

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Yes, but something is true because …

You need to fill in the ellipses or you’re just accepting it without a reason.

How do you understand the concept of truth that is “self-evident”? For example,

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
(Preamble to the Declaration of Independence, separating American states from England)

Do you hold these - or any - truths to be "self-evident?

No, I don’t. It’s a premise that needs an explanation. It’s a concept that needs to be investigated. It’s a truth that needs to be verified. It’s a statement that needs confirmation.

Is it true? Yes, I think it is. Because I have reasons for believing it to be so.

If you had been born into a white family in South Africa in the 60’s then you would not have accepted it. You would have accepted the fact that all men are not created equally without any need for an explanation or argument.

Reasons are required. Explanations are necessary. Arguments must be made. If there is no reason to accept something as true then there is no reason to reject it as false.

 

[fide]

Is it true? Yes, I think it is. Because I have reasons for believing it to be so.

Which unalienable right, for example (or pick your own example) do you believe in, and what makes it true for you? (I’m trying to understand the foundation of your position.)

 

[fide]

None . Rights are social constructs. The strongest bully on the block, which is the “nation-state” these days decides what your “rights are”.

Is that a statement of the faith on which you seek to build your life? “Might makes right” ? That sounds very grim, to me.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Is it true? Yes, I think it is. Because I have reasons for believing it to be so.

Which unalienable right, for example (or pick your own example) do you believe in, and what makes it true for you? (I’m trying to understand the foundation of your position.)

That all men are created equal. Which is counter intuitive when initially proposed. Because all men are not equal. Some are worthy of our admiration and some are not. But were they created equal?

What makes the difference between a Mandela and a Pol Pot? Genetics? Upbringing? Could a mass murderer be a beacon for freedom had he been brought up differently? Or is he created to fullfill his destiny. Are we born bad?

Which is a different question as to how we are to treat people. So if the statement was: ‘All men should be treated equally’ then all things being equal, why wouldn’t you? Our justice system is built on that concept. So all men have the opportunity to be treated equally so it makes sense to propose that we start from the same base point until any given person proves otherwise.

So you can use that argument against someone who doesn’t think that we should all start on an equal footing. We have a reason for holding to that concept.

We always need a reason for what we believe to be true.

 

[fide]

That all men are created equal. Which is counter intuitive when initially proposed. Because all men are not equal. Some are worthy of our admiration and some are not. But were they created equal?

What makes the difference between a Mandela and a Pol Pot? Genetics? Upbringing? Could a mass murderer be a beacon for freedom had he been brought up differently? Or is he created to fullfill his destiny. Are we born bad?

Which is a different question as to how we are to treat people. So if the statement was: ‘All men should be treated equally’ then all things being equal, why wouldn’t you? Our justice system is built on that concept. So all men have the opportunity to be treated equally so it makes sense to propose that we start from the same base point until any given person proves otherwise.

So you can use that argument against someone who doesn’t think that we should all start on an equal footing. We have a reason for holding to that concept.

We always need a reason for what we believe to be true.

So you are prejudiced against remorseless mass murderers? Do you therefore believe that the right to life is true, and should be respected and honored? Is it true because… just because it is true? Self-evident? Or must you find a reason to justify it? How do you justify “the right to life”? Or, IOW, “Oh yeah? Who says so?”

Again, I’m not trying to be flippant - I’m only trying to understand the foundation for your beliefs.

 

[fide]

I don’t like it, but it is the reality . Actually, it is not might makes right… it is might makes the rules. And I would be very happy, IF the mightiest one of all, God would enforce his alleged requirements.

Actually, “Might makes right” is not reality at all - thus it is as all lies are, passing. The Day of Justice is coming, the Kingdom of Righteousness is coming. God is allowing time, keeping the “door open” so to speak, for all who seek righteousness to enter. The day will come, however, when time is finished. So as the Word says, “Make the most of the time, for the days are evil.”

Eph 5:15 Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise,
Eph 5:16 making the most of the time, because the days are evil.
Eph 5:17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.

 

[fide]

I’m glad you are here - I would conclude, searching. Everyone who seeks, finds. As you find, you will understand more and more. So I’m encouraging you! Keep searching.

 

[Nickos]

Im not following the thread anymore. Responses have shifted to much away from the topic. If you want to debate or something i can keep ot open. Just let me know. Thanks

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Nope. As long as you dont do it. Plus Confession is a choise. You can never even go and after commiting adyltery for example if you fill guilty and say God forgive you are good.

In Catholicism you do have to confess certain sins.