Homosexuality in geneology?

[SilentKnight]

I know of two homosexuals. They have been together for 30 years and they were married two years ago.

Sure seems like authentic love to me and not just a romp in the hay as so many who condemn homosexuality choose to believe.

Why does it seem like authentic love to you?

(Work with me…)

After you answer, I will probably ask you to elaborate, so keep this in mind ahead of time.

SK

 

[onetimeposter]

Why does it seem like authentic love to you?

(Work with me…)

After you answer, I will probably ask you to elaborate, so keep this in mind ahead of time.

SK

Commitment, friendship, intimacy, understanding, respect, kind, caring, monogamous.

I wonder if there marriage is more harmful than two bitter heterosexuals who are only remaining married for the ’ sake of the children’?

I wonder where a truer example love lives?

I don’t know them personally. My brother in laws parents are best friends with them.

 

[Writer]

Even though there may not be any full blown scientific evidence that one can be born homosexual, there is no right to discard the idea.

And it’s plain obvious today that many people ARE born gay. There are many individuals who have stated that they were gay from as soon as they started being attracted to others. And other individuals clearly state they have always felt as if they were in the wrong body.

But yes, people can also gradually become gay through upbringing, environment and choice as thistle posted.

While I doubt that people are born gay, I question its relevance either way. My ancestors raped and pilaged all around the British Isles, does that mean I perhaps may have an inclination or gravitation somewhere for anti-social behavior? While that may, or may not be the case (depending perhaps on how much coffee I’ve recently consumed ), a genetic disposition is not a “get out of jail free card” when it comes to morality.

While I believe the genetic element may be somehow taken into account at judgement, my suspicion is that it will carry little in the way of ultimate weight or significance. We’re all called to lead moral lives–whether this is made harder, or not, by our genes simply represents the cross that we carry in our daily lives. If we live as Christ taught, we will offer that cross up to him each day as we struggle to do what’s right and just.

As an aside here, we have a good friend who struggled with homosexuality in one part of her life. Every time this issue is raised, she is very adamant that it is not genetic in nature. Seeing as she’s been there and now is a happily married and active Catholic, I think I will have to believe that she’s closer to the truth on this than I can imagine.

 

[anoynted1]

A few years ago, in India, a man married a dog. He had great affection for it. He felt that they had a mutual understanding.
He wanted to right wrongs. He wanted peace. He loved the dog.
Is this"marriage" valid?
Just because the laws of the land say something is legal, that does not change the laws of God.
Understanding this, many activists are now refuting the validity of scripture. If scripture is invalid because “men wrote it”, then I can do whatever I want to do, whatever “my god” tells me.
What we have here is what is known in theology as “zeitgast”, the spirit of the age. Actually, it’s not even a new spirit. It’s the same spirit that hs always existed, just manifesting itself in a new way.
Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it…

 

[jean8]

Sorry, but LOTS of things can go wrong in the development of a human being. LOTS. It has nothing to do with God allowing anything to happen or creating them to be a certain way. God created humans to be “male or female” did he not? Look up to see how many babies are born with both (male & female) genitalia.

I recommend for you to study up on the development of a baby, from the moment of conception to birth, and you may understand all that can go wrong!

We can’t prove they are born with the predisposition to be gay, but my guess is that they are. Where do you propose it comes from?

So, Oscar, Your saying God doesn’t know what he’s doing.
It’s choice that God gives us.
Did you read the passages I gave? of course you didn’t.

Pray about it. You can’t outwit God.

jean8

 

[VivatJesus]

And then I go hearing things about animals being homosexuals too and I really want to know what in the world all of this stuff (nonsense) is about.

Please and Thank You

LOL…animals are no more homosexual than my dog is into bestiality by humping my leg.

 

[SirOscar]

So, Oscar, Your saying God doesn’t know what he’s doing.
It’s choice that God gives us.
Did you read the passages I gave? of course you didn’t.
Pray about it. You can’t outwit God.

I am certainly not trying to “outwit God”

All I said is that many things go wrong in the embryonic development of a baby. God does not MAKE horrible birth defects to happen. They just happen as part of nature as someone else said.

As far as homosexuality, we can debate the cause til the end of time. The reality is that it happens in humans as it does in some animals.

People afflicted with same sex attraction do not have a choice of who they are attracted to. When sexual attraction starts, one does not think to themselves “Hmmm, I think I will deviate from the norm and like the same sex”, or “I think I will rebel agaist God, and like the same sex because I love sin.”

When you reached the age of sexual attraction, did you discern which sex you might prefer? Did you make of list of pros & cons and then decide? No, there was something inside of you that made you attracted to the opposite sex.

The same hold true for the homosexual

One does not choose homosexuality or heterosexuality… it is something that is out of our control.

However one can **control their actions **to their attraction:

1. One can choose to live a celebate life in accordance with God’s law by not acting upon their attraction. One may slip up from time to time, as we all have the tendency to sin.
2. One can choose to diregard God’s laws and live a gay lifestyle, or if they are heterosexual, just live together as man & wife without getting married.
3. One can choose marriage in accordance to God’s law of love & marriage.

 

[SilentKnight]

Commitment, friendship, intimacy, understanding, respect, kind, caring, monogamous.

I wonder if there marriage is more harmful than two bitter heterosexuals who are only remaining married for the ’ sake of the children’?

I wonder where a truer example love lives?

A few months ago there was a story that broke about a beautiful young German couple - with a twist (that the couple themselves didn’t know about until later on in the relationship). I believe they had three kids together, loved each other very deeply, and THEN found out… that they were biological brother and sister… (Of course, they had been separated from each other as young children.)

Like I said, by all appearances, they “loved” each other very much. When some German court demanded that the no longer live as a couple, they were both very saddened and very grieved by the decison. They both “got” the fact that they were brother and sister and that theirs was not a “conventional” relationship, but, still, “How can you tell me we are not allowed to love each other?” was basically how they responded.

Onetime, what’s your answer?

SK

 

[ljahns]

One of the marks of maturity is being able to see things for what they are, regardless of initial appearances. A young child thinks, “If I don’t feel physical pain, then it can’t be bad.” Older children may think, “Nothing adverse happened right after I did the act…It must be ok.” The adult thinks, “Ok, I know I can’t see or feel anything wrong just yet, but I know that, long term (and/or objectively), this is not good…”

It is sometimes stated tongue-in-cheek after Pride parades and like events that football-sized hail didn’t fall from the sky, the ground didn’t shake and open up and swallow all the participants and no boils broke out on anyone’s skin. Because there were no immediate adverse experiences, they draw the conclusion that homosexual activity must not be all that bad after all. What sort of reasoning does this sound like viz a viz the options offered above?

In order to qualify for “living a Christian life”, one must live a Christian life – in its entirety. This does not mean that one cannot sin or else he is automatically excommunicated. All of us fall from time to time. That’s what confession is for. It does mean that we are not allowed to “pick and choose”. What God has revealed about the way we should behave, because it is God who is revealing, is non-negotiable. It is all or none. When we make God out to be a liar, we place ourselves at great spiritual risk for obvious reasons.

Thus a homosexual couple like the one you’ve described is, at best, well-intended, otherwise kind-hearted - and very mistaken about the permissibility of their relationship, and, at worst, corrupted spiritually and adopting the child for what are really self-centered rather than selfless ends. Of course, none of us are in any sort of position to judge interior motives. But according to divine revelation, this is how it is.

I take the time to highlight this because I see so much of this happening in our time – people picking and choosing which commandments they are going to follow, which ones suit them and which ones don’t “feel” or “seem” right to their own sensibilities. People insisting that they pray before their show or during their game or whatever all the while sleeping with someone they’re not married to or dancing around on stage all but naked, singing salacious lyrics or engaging in some other type of immoral behavior.

“My ways are not your ways” God reminds us in Scripture. Scripture also says “there is a way that seems right to a man”, but which is, in essence “not approved of” (condemned) by God. I suggest we all keep this in mind and take care to apply ourselves to always seeking truth with a sincere heart, rather live according to our misleading passions and the way that “seems right” to us.

Not to be “overly dramatic”, but the issue is literally one of eternal life and death…

SK

The above makes me wonder just how many gay couples you know. Maturity is also knowing when you don’t know. I don’t know. I can only state what I have stated before. I do not condone this practice. I do not understand it.

What I do know is that we have no way of knowing if God will condemn them. We are taught that Gods Loving Mercy is boundless. Even Hitler we are taught could have repented and been forgiven. This is stated somewhere in the CCC (not in those words of course), though I don’t know where at the moment as I’m not home. That is why I pray for them and all who are like them. I will NOT however condemn them! That is NOT, Thanks be to GOD, my job!

 

[onetimeposter]

A few months ago there was a story that broke about a beautiful young German couple - with a twist (that the couple themselves didn’t know about until later on in the relationship). I believe they had three kids together, loved each other very deeply, and THEN found out… that they were biological brother and sister… (Of course, they had been separated from each other as young children.)

Like I said, by all appearances, they “loved” each other very much. When some German court demanded that the no longer live as a couple, they were both very saddened and very grieved by the decison. They both “got” the fact that they were brother and sister and that theirs was not a “conventional” relationship, but, still, “How can you tell me we are not allowed to love each other?” was basically how they responded.

Onetime, what’s your answer?

SK

Incest is illegal and can result in the birth of genetically damaged children.

Homosexuality is legal and children can be adopted, surrogate mother used or artificial insemination used.

Please, don’t waste your breath by suggesting that incest could be legalized.

 

[SilentKnight]

The above makes me wonder just how many gay couples you know.

Why?

Maturity is also knowing when you don’t know. I don’t know. I can only state what I have stated before. I do not condone this practice. I do not understand it.

What I do know is that we have no way of knowing if God will condemn them. We are taught that Gods Loving Mercy is boundless. Even Hitler we are taught could have repented and been forgiven. This is stated somewhere in the CCC (not in those words of course), though I don’t know where at the moment as I’m not home. That is why I pray for them and all who are like them. I will NOT however condemn them! That is NOT, Thanks be to GOD, my job!

I agree with you. The final state of one’s soul is not (typically) something any of us are able to ascertain. (There are extremely rare exceptions in a rare few holy individuals.) Nor are we to try. We are, however, to teach the truth and then allow the “chips to fall where they may”.

SK

 

[SilentKnight]

Incest is illegal and can result in the birth of genetically damaged children.

Homosexuality is legal and children can be adopted, surrogate mother used or artificial insemination used.

Please, don’t waste your breath by suggesting that incest could be legalized.

I won’t because that’s not really relevant. If you know anything about history, you know that appealing to law is not the best way to go to clarify when and why something is permissible or not. Slavery was very legal in this country at one lengthy point in time. Homosexuality was not, not so long ago.

So, I ask the question again.

Regarding the German brother and sister above, what is your answer to them when they say, “How you can you tell us we can’t love each other?”

SK

 

[onetimeposter]

I won’t because that’s not really relevant. If you know anything about history, you know that appealing to law is not the best way to go to clarify when and why something is permissible or not. Slavery was very legal in this country at one lengthy point in time. Homosexuality was not, not so long ago.

So, I ask the question again.

Regarding the German brother and sister above, what is your answer to them when they say,

SK

“How you can you tell us we can’t love each other?”

Answer - Love all you want. Incest is illegal. Genetic birth defects could result if a child results.

Homosexuality - Love all you want, Homosexuality is legal. No risk of genetic birth defects.

I can’t answer any clearer than that.

 

[ljahns]

Why?

Because I’d like to know what kind of “real world experience”, as opposed to writing in a forum like this, you have in telling gay couples what they are doing is wrong.

It’s not as easy as you might think.

 

[onetimeposter]

SilentKnight;3879259:

Why?

Because I’d like to know what kind of “real world experience”, as opposed to writing in a forum like this, you have in telling gay couples what they are doing is wrong.

It’s not as easy as you might think.

Especially if you are friends with them or related to them or perhaps they are your child.

That is a true test, could you shun your own son or daughter for living a homosexual life?

 

[SilentKnight]

Because I’d like to know what kind of “real world experience”, as opposed to writing in a forum like this, you have in telling gay couples what they are doing is wrong.

It’s not as easy as you might think.

No. It isn’t easy telling people in situations like these that what they’re doing is not ok. Sexuality is a powerful element of human life. It’s not like telling people not to steal. But, precisely for that reason, we must be unflinching in our testimony to how to exercise sexuality properly, so that is gives life instead of death and oppression. Exactly how we go about doing this is necessarily going to vary in most instances.

I have a cousin and a friend that are both gay. And I live in Seattle (any questions, or do we already know what that means? ) They both know where I stand - that homosexual activity is unacceptable, and that I love them both.

On the other side of the fence, I used to work with two gay women who found out that I was a “church-goer” and then had it confirmed for them later that I was against homosexual behavior.

After that, we continued to speak with each other ammicably, the issue never coming up explicitly. If we had spent a little more time together than we did, it may have. Both women likely held to their orientation because of abusive pasts (one had been married to a [male] “jerk” for nine years before connecting with this other gay woman who had an abusive past). Because of this, I knew the direct explicit approach was not the right one. Instead, I chose the more passive “be kind”/“let your light shine” approach with both of them, which, I know, gave more more credibility with these two than I would have had otherwise.

SK

 

[SilentKnight]

Especially if you are friends with them or related to them or perhaps they are your child.

That is a true test, could you shun your own son or daughter for living a homosexual life?

Could I shun them as in “disown” them? No, not at all. Could I shun them as in simply refuse to accept their behavior if they were to enter into a homosexual relationship? Absolutely. If my son or daughter ever said, “Dad, we’re get married. You’re coming, right?” My sorrowful response would be “No. I love you, and because of that, I won’t be attending the ceremony.”

Part of love is discerning between right or wrong and then acting accordingly, even if that means sacrificing a great deal in the process.

Not easy. But necessary. And the reward for doing this, in the end (and sometimes “en route” also), is great.

SK

 

[SilentKnight]

FYI -

I will be leaving town tomorrow morning for several days. If I “suddenly disappear” from the thread, wanted you to know why…

SK

 

[SilentKnight]

Answer - Love all you want. Incest is illegal. Genetic birth defects could result if a child results.

Homosexuality - Love all you want, Homosexuality is legal. No risk of genetic birth defects.

I can’t answer any clearer than that.

You’re not holding to the morality of a given act being dictated by law, are you?

What this comes down to is that it is morally wrong for a brother and sister to marry each other solely because their kids might have birth defects…?? Are you honestly comfortable with that position?

What if they agreed before getting married to have themselves sterilized? Big old green light? Two thumbs up?

SK

 

[St_Aloysius]

You’re not holding to the morality of a given act being dictated by law, are you?

What this comes down to is that it is morally wrong for a brother and sister to marry each other solely because their kids might have birth defects…?? Are you honestly comfortable with that position?

What if they agreed before getting married to have themselves sterilized? Big old green light? Two thumbs up?

How easily some would respond to such a difficult scenario with no more than “incest is wrong.” Is it? It certainly does have its downside: genetic defects, for instance. Then again, evolution itself is a tangled family web. Regardless of its morality, for these two individuals, who are in such a difficult position… how can we really expect them to respond? “Stop loving one another”? Can we really be so heartlessly objective, so apathetic to what would without doubt be an infinitely trying experience, emotionally and otherwise?

This thread has me more than a little disgusted, I’ll confess. The pathological origins of same-sex attraction are largely unknown. All we do know from recent scientific studies is that genetic factors probably do pay a significant role–certainly not a negligible one–in the development of sexual identity (to what extent is another question entirely). Environmental conditions and subjective experience do play a role, as well: however, to equate this with “homosexuality as a choice” is simple fallacy. All of these factors influence, without doubt, one’s unique sexual identity, but do so almost on an entirely unconscious level.

And yes, call it what you like: there are numerous animals (especially in mammals) that also experience a form of SSA and attempt to mate with creatures of the same gender. It is not unheard of.

To simply pass this off as an “objective disorder”–how subjective the sources of such accusations!–is perhaps only to fear the otherwise inevitable conclusion: it is a part of the natural order. Its origins do not lie in humanity’s “depravity.”

One can talk about “cures” and “treatments” for such, and in doing so only unveil a saddening (and immense) ignorance. Growing up in a fundamentalist church, being exposed to the prejudice and bigotry of these “God-fearing” men, I was forever isolated by my condition. I wanted so desperately to be “normal”; but why would I want to deny this part of myself? This capacity for genuine and sincere love, so beautifully exemplified through Our Lord’s loving sacrifice, and through the touching narrative of David and Jonathan’s encounters which I came to know so well? I didn’t want to become heterosexual. I just wanted my friends to still love me. I went to conversion therapy. I loved it, if only because I was luckily placed with an open-minded therapist and it gave me someone to talk to about my “condition.” Of course it didn’t “straighten” me out… In fact, twice at later dates I attempted suicide. Why bother to live when no one seems capable of loving you just as you are–when you are so very, utterly alone? When you are, beyond hope of repair, “objectively disordered”?

Finally, I began understanding, first through the support of new friends (Catholic, wouldn’t’cha know!), that I had nothing to be ashamed of, nothing to excise. I also began realizing how deep the psychic damage inflicted when one is so set on denying and suppressing such a powerful and deeply imbedded inner reality. I want to be wholly me, as God made me. To live within the context of my own true Self.

Perhaps we all need a lesson in the area of being more genuine, starting with how to be honest with ourselves. But I for one simply cannot live in a ruse, forever denying and exiling what I know to be a powerful truth about myself.

Having come through the torment of living out a false self, seeing comments like these–so devoid of understanding in this area, mostly simply through lack of experience–is painful. There’s still so much progress to be made. Still so many things in need of realization by decided minds.