Homosexuals and celibacy

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  1. Three very different topics. Optional priestly celibacy is a discipline, not a dogma or doctrine. It is a practice, not a teaching about fundamentals. It falls in the realm of practice (just like previous Lenten practices, previous Eucharistic fasts, etc.), and is therefore not a fixed teaching.
  2. The RCC’s teaching on homosexuality is so fundamental to its integrated view of personhood, gender, complementarity, relationality, marriage, and natural law that it would not be a topic that lends itself logically to conscience conflicts. And remember, as discussed on the previous Conscience threads, paragraph 1790 in the CCC is not something that can be casually recalled for such fundamental doctrinal aspects on a wholesale basis. It is in there, as we discussed, for exceptional and rare cases of true and unusual conflict, especially when a unique situation arises in which two competing goods or two competing evils might present themselves hypothetically, requiring the individual Catholic to weigh an informed conscience with a specific instance of a moral dilemma in which his conscience would persist in persuading him to oppose a teaching.
  1. My point in bringing up married priests and women priests was not to discuss their theological substance but to point out that we can have unity as believers without having the same beliefs in ALL teachings. Yes, married priests is a discipline. Certainly women priests are not. Nor is contraception. And as I mentioned, 85% of Catholics use some form of birth control which has also been defined as intrinsically evil. Should we wonder why they (those who use contraception) remain Catholics?
  2. Unless of course you are an SSA individual.
  3. I never said 1790 should be “casually” recalled. I agree it requires much thought, prayer and reflection. Where does ccc1790 say in only rare and exceptional cases? And what does “rare and exceptional” mean?
 
  1. I do not see the same weight. The objective evil of abortion is much more obvious to me than two people of same sex in a loving and committed relationship.
seems reasonable

besides, the only sexual sin to make the Ten Commandments was adultery
 
  1. Then I think you sell our Catholic faith far, far short. The beauty of it’s liturgy, it’s spirituality, the sacraments, the saints, our Blessed Mother, it’s great theologians, its history, apostolic tradition, and on and on. The depth, width, and breadth of our faith, along with the infinate nature of God and the graces he bestows on it make sexual issues such a small part of the equation.
There is absolutely no logical leap between fidelity to the moral precepts of the Church and a lack of appreciation for, or even a subordinate interest in:
The beauty of it’s liturgy, it’s spirituality, the sacraments, the saints, our Blessed Mother, it’s great theologians, its history, apostolic tradition, and on and on. The depth, width, and breadth of our faith, along with the infinate nature of God and the graces he bestows on it
It’s not one OR the other, BigE. They are not mutually exclusive. The appreciation of a tradition, its beauty, etc., as I have often expressed and detailed such an appreciation on CAF, does not predict or indicate a reduced interest in that tradition’s moral teachings. That’s both a logical fallacy and a practical misunderstanding of those who value the fullness of beauty in the Church, most especially myself. I resent your implication and find it rather unnecessary, as it misrepresents my 2+ years on this forum.
  1. I do not see the same weight. The objective evil of abortion is much more obvious to me than two people of same sex in a loving and committed relationship.
FROM THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH:
Chastity and homosexuality
2357 Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that **“homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”**141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
There’s nothing non-obvious about that. Objectively evil, in the eyes of the Church. Nothing in there about it’s OK as long as the objectively evil acts are cemented even further into commitment. Nothing in there about the objectively evil acts are suddenly not so if the two parties are “in loving relationship.” This is what’s called subjectivity, not objectivity.
 
A further clarification:

I was not comparing the weight of abortion to the weight of sexual sin (any of it, all of it), but rather referring to the platform of objective evil. There’s no wiggle room on this. Homosexual acts are not “sometimes” OK, depending on the non-sexual aspects of the relationship, any more than adultery is OK or fornication is OK depending on the depth of love of the two individuals engaging in illict behavior. It’s illicit behavior, no matter how it’s dressed up. It can’t be 'conditionally" evil.
 
  1. There is absolutely no logical leap between fidelity to the moral precepts of the Church and a lack of appreciation for, or even a subordinate interest in:
It’s not one OR the other, BigE. They are not mutually exclusive. The appreciation of a tradition, its beauty, etc., as I have often expressed and detailed such an appreciation on CAF, does not predict or indicate a reduced interest in that tradition’s moral teachings. That’s both a logical fallacy and a practical misunderstanding of those who value the fullness of beauty in the Church, most especially myself. I resent your implication and find it rather unnecessary, as it misrepresents my 2+ years on this forum.

FROM THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH:
  1. There’s nothing non-obvious about that. Objectively evil, in the eyes of the Church. Nothing in there about it’s OK as long as the objectively evil acts are cemented even further into commitment. Nothing in there about the objectively evil acts are suddenly not so if the two parties are “in loving relationship.” This is what’s called subjectivity, not objectivity.
  1. Sorry E. I didn’t mean to insult. I was just pointing out why some may elect to stay in the church despite problems with some teachings. I also understand your point on why some may decide to leave. When the pain of not changing exceeds the pain of change - that’s when someone leaves the church.
  2. I also understand it’s obvious in the eyes of the church. But using church declarations to prove a point to someone who says they don’t buy into that particuliar church teaching is circular. Declaring to the atheist that God exists because the Church (or the Bible) says so is not a very convincing argument to the atheist. I’m looking for the rational on why a committed SSA relationship is evil. How does it harm the individual or society?
 
A further clarification:

I was not comparing the weight of abortion to the weight of sexual sin (any of it, all of it), but rather referring to the platform of objective evil. There’s no wiggle room on this. Homosexual acts are not “sometimes” OK, depending on the non-sexual aspects of the relationship, any more than adultery is OK or fornication is OK depending on the depth of love of the two individuals engaging in illict behavior. It’s illicit behavior, no matter how it’s dressed up. It can’t be 'conditionally" evil.
There is a difference. When one commits adultery, there is obvious harm and hurt done to others through lying and betrayal. It is easy to see why such a choice is sinful.

I don’t see that in a committed SSA relationship.
 
Over and over I’ve seen Christians advocate that homosexuals are to take a neutral stance, and that they are called to celibacy. I agree with them to a certain extent. Homosexuality is a sin, no doubt in my mind there, and celibacy is better than indulgence. But why do people want them celibate and not all the way heterosexual?

Why don’t more people advocate that homosexuals just stop being what they claim to be? Why not advocate that they give heterosexuality a chance? Why does hardly anybody care about ‘converting’ homosexuals and only desire to neutralize them? I hardly ever see this stance anywhere.

Yeah, some will say it’s not a choice, and that their only choices are celibacy or sin. I find this kinda hard to swallow after seeing pride parades and talking to people openly gay, they don’t even seem to want to consider heterosexuality.
The Church has ample New Testament authority to condemn homosexuality, but no authority to promulgate conversion to heterosexuality.

The only authority the Church reserves for itself - with respect to conversion - is in the application of bringing everyone into the Christian faith.
 
… I’m looking for the rational on why a committed SSA relationship is evil. How does it harm the individual or society?
There is no persuasive rationale on this. It is a sexual more from a rigid and dualistic understanding of human sexual orientation, a dynamic of human life that is and likely always has been much more fluid than this rigidity of interpretation acknowledges.
 
There is a difference. When one commits adultery, there is obvious harm and hurt done to others through lying and betrayal. It is easy to see why such a choice is sinful.

I don’t see that in a committed SSA relationship.
And I don’t understand why you are not going to the sources. What is it about me (who is not part of clergy, nor --by definition – a member of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) that you are challenging, merely for understanding and repeating the Church’s position? Your challenge to these fundamental teachings belongs to the realm of where these doctrines originate: the CDF. These are not Elizabeth’s doctrines. They are the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. What you don’t “see” needs illumination from the sources. JP2 has issued statements about it, certainly the USCCB, certainly Cardinals, as well as Catholic lay people in positions of responsibility and leadership. Not believing (or not agreeing with) me does not absolve you of (a) understanding the teaching (b) accepting the teaching.

Here are just a few sources; there are many more, and I already sourced the 43-page article produced by Prof. Robert George, who has the backing of the U.S. bishops, which apparently you choose not to read.

www.amercamagazine.org/blog/entry.cfm?entry_id=2923

www.usccb.org/laity/marriage/samesexstmt.shtml

www.americancatholic.org/news/report.aspx?id=933#

(That’s just a few. It took seconds to retrieve these. Nothing prevented you from retrieving the same information. It’s not my responsibility to be the Point Person to shoulder the full responsibility for convincing you of the Roman Catholic Church’s position, not some unusual or exotic position I created. And if I don’t convince you, as a non-authorized deputy of Rome (appointed by you), you are therefore not bound to accept the teachings.) I don’t think so.

And whether 75, 80, or 85% of “practicing” Catholics use ABC is irrelevant to whether it happens currently to be still part of the moral prohibitions. 100% of Catholics have committed mortal sins of all kinds, limited to the very 10 Commandments themselves, but the Church is also not prepared to dispose of those, either. The moral teachings of the Church are not created postfacto – out of recognition of how many people do and do not follow those. We don’t have ‘teachings by consensus.’ Yes I understand your point about dissent. Dissent is a reality. But dissent in itself does not necessarily indicate a correct moral position, even if that dissent reaches a majority percentage. (It may be that an extremely high percentage of so-called practicing Catholics feel entitled to break this prohibition; it does not necessarily follow that 75-85% of priests in good standing agree with such a position. It means that some couples confess it or bring it to confession, and are given various responses by priests; it means undoubtedly an additional percentage of Catholics do not bring it to confession because they either don’t consider it a sin, or that for some other reason they withhold it from confession, or that they do not frequent the sacrament.)
 


Here are just a few sources; there are many more, and I already sourced the 43-page article produced by Prof. Robert George, who has the backing of the U.S. bishops, which apparently you choose not to read.

www.amercamagazine.org/blog/entry.cfm?entry_id=2923

www.usccb.org/laity/marriage/samesexstmt.shtml

www.americancatholic.org/news/report.aspx?id=933#

(That’s just a few. It took seconds to retrieve these. Nothing prevented you from retrieving the same information. It’s not my responsibility to be the Point Person to shoulder the full responsibility for convincing you of the Roman Catholic Church’s position, not some unusual or exotic position I created. And if I don’t convince you, as a non-authorized deputy of Rome (appointed by you), you are therefore not bound to accept the teachings.) I don’t think so.
For some reason, the first link you provided does not work. Here is the link on “What is Marriage” by Prof Robert George

Readers can take the cursor to the “One Click Download” instruction on the top left of the menu and it will open the pdf document of 43 pages. Very very easy!

In fact, back in December 2010, Buffalo (poster) opened a thread to disseminate same:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=521691

Catholics who wish to find reasons to support the Church position first (clearly doubting her authority in certain matters of faith and morals) should read this.
,
 
  1. And I don’t understand why you are not going to the sources. What is it about me (who is not part of clergy, nor --by definition – a member of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) that you are challenging, merely for understanding and repeating the Church’s position? Your challenge to these fundamental teachings belongs to the realm of where these doctrines originate: the CDF. These are not Elizabeth’s doctrines. They are the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. What you don’t “see” needs illumination from the sources. JP2 has issued statements about it, certainly the USCCB, certainly Cardinals, as well as Catholic lay people in positions of responsibility and leadership. Not believing (or not agreeing with) me does not absolve you of (a) understanding the teaching (b) accepting the teaching.
Here are just a few sources; there are many more, and I already sourced the 43-page article produced by Prof. Robert George, who has the backing of the U.S. bishops, which apparently you choose not to read.

www.amercamagazine.org/blog/entry.cfm?entry_id=2923

www.usccb.org/laity/marriage/samesexstmt.shtml

www.americancatholic.org/news/report.aspx?id=933#

(That’s just a few. It took seconds to retrieve these. Nothing prevented you from retrieving the same information. It’s not my responsibility to be the Point Person to shoulder the full responsibility for convincing you of the Roman Catholic Church’s position, not some unusual or exotic position I created. And if I don’t convince you, as a non-authorized deputy of Rome (appointed by you), you are therefore not bound to accept the teachings.) I don’t think so.

And whether 75, 80, or 85% of “practicing” Catholics use ABC is irrelevant to whether it happens currently to be still part of the moral prohibitions. 100% of Catholics have committed mortal sins of all kinds, limited to the very 10 Commandments themselves, but the Church is also not prepared to dispose of those, either. The moral teachings of the Church are not created postfacto – out of recognition of how many people do and do not follow those. We don’t have ‘teachings by consensus.’ Yes I understand your point about dissent. Dissent is a reality. But dissent in itself does not necessarily indicate a correct moral position, even if that dissent reaches a majority percentage. (It may be that an extremely high percentage of so-called practicing Catholics feel entitled to break this prohibition; it does not necessarily follow that 75-85% of priests in good standing agree with such a position. It means that some couples confess it or bring it to confession, and are given various responses by priests; it means undoubtedly an additional percentage of Catholics do not bring it to confession because they either don’t consider it a sin, or that for some other reason they withhold it from confession, or that they do not frequent the sacrament.)
  1. I have (and am) going to the sources. But since my discussion is with you, you are the one I would naturally challenge. It’s difficult to debate and explore issues with documents. 😉 And when I challenge, it is because I am hoping that maybe you (or someone) may reframe the church’s position in a way that makes sense to me. Perhaps it’s not possible. Perhaps I am too stubborn, too dumb, or both. But I will keep exploring the issue anyways. Part of my spiritual due diligence.
For example, in the third article you linked, the Iowa Bishops declared “This decision (allowing gay marriage) rejects the wisdom of thousands of years of human history. It implements a novel understanding of marriage, which will grievously harm families and children.” How exactly will families and children be harmed by this legislation? That is never stated or made clear.

In the second link you posted the USSB states “No same-sex union can realize the unique and full potential which the marital relationship expresses”. I absolutely 100%agree with that. Marriage is most beautiful when there is both a unitive and procreative element. No doubt about it. But why does that make a lesser marital relationship sinful? Plenty of heterosexuals have marriages where kids are not possible. Their relationships aren’t sinful. 50% of heterosexual marriages end in divorce (calling into question even the unitive part of those marriages). Those relationships aren’t sinful.

And once again the USSB restates what the IOWA bishops stated: “At a time when family life is under significant stress, the principled defense of marriage is an urgent necessity for the wellbeing of children and families, and for the common good of society.” Again, how do homosexual relationships harm that well being?
  1. I didn’t bring up the contraception issue to say doctrine is based on consensus (although there is a line of thought that says “reception” is certainly an indicator of the truth of any doctrine), but I brought it up relative to your discussion around unity. The Church even now remains the Church, despite 85% of it’s followers disagreeeing with a teaching on contraception. That was my point.
 
ISOG:
Yes, some of that information – such as the December posting of the Prof. George link, by another CAF poster – I had already referred to in an earlier post on this thread or a similar thread, yesterday, I believe. Again, I had provided the terms that anyone could have put into an ordinary search engine (with the title of the Harvard journal and the author’s name), if anyone was seriously interested in reading it yesterday or today and not just arguing for the sake of arguing.

I’m sorry that the first link didn’t work, but it was only a letter and less important than the doc from the USCCB’s website.

I can understand a non-Catholic whose faith tradition holds a very different position, requiring repeated or detailed explanation and justification for the Church’s position. I frankly do not understand it from a Catholic, at least to this degree of incredulity, and I address that remark to all those who state they are Catholic but have either not bothered to acquaint themselves with the full scope (and rationale) for Church teachings on sexuality, or who simply feel that they can substitute a personal opinion about “no harm” or adopt the language & rationale of the secular culture.

It is a very different thing to state honestly that one understands the position, and that one is well acquainted with the teaching & rationale, but has trouble accepting it for ___ reason. But to demand that CAF posters must make it intelligible to other CAF posters, in order for the latter to believe what the Church herself has much more thoroughly expressed in multiple documents than any CAF poster could duplicate, is just an irrational demand, i.m.o.

There are elements of dogma, the highest level of required assent, that are far less “rational,” and that theologians, clergy, writers, have spent hundreds of years trying to explain (Trinity, transubstantiation, hypostatic union, Virgin Birth, Immaculate Conception, and much more) than the matter of a fanciful and experimental definition of a commonly, traditionally understood institution. I think Robert George’s article, while time-consuming, is digestible for anyone who is sincerely interested in obtaining answers to the latter issue. He is extremely logical, and he is also thoroughly grounded in Catholic philosophy. I’m sorry to sound like a broken record, but if one is not educated in Catholic philosophy, there really are aspects of the theology that are difficult to see as integrated into the whole. In that case, some heavy-duty philosophy classes at a reputable Catholic institution are in order. A discussion forum is not adequate for that.

We are not required to fully assent to teachings that are difficult to understand and/or that present a personal stumbling block to us, for whatever reason. We are required to try to assent, that’s all: to make an honest effort, to pray about it, to read, to consult authority figures. We are required not to dismiss or toss aside difficult teachings, and teachings that contradict what we hear daily from an opposing culture, just because we do not initially “see the rationale.” We are required not to substitute our personal opinion, and the limits of human reason, for authoritative teaching. We are required at least to make consistent efforts to understand, and in all cases to remain open to understanding what we currently cannot, including teachings which for any reason are personally uncomfortable to us.

I love intellectual challenges. But I do not “understand” the Virgin Birth. Yet I assent to it, because the Church and Our Lady ask me to. It’s not “rational” to me; therefore I cannot provide a “rational” explanation to anyone who demands it of me (“or else they won’t believe”). Neither is the Resurrection or the Miracle of the Loaves and Fishes. But that’s what our senses fidei is. For aspects of the faith that are far more logical, such as heterosexual marriage, the Church can expect at least as much effort, and probably more.
 
If I understand your exchange of posts with Elizabeth, it appears that her explanations have not satisfied your questions:


  1. *]How does gay marriage harm families and children?
    *]How do homosexual relationships harm the common good?
    *]Why is a faithful, monogamous same-sex union not at par with faithful, monogamous heterosexual union? Why is it considered sinful by the Church?

    *]Why are less marital relationsions (not both unitive and procreative) sinful, given that in some heterosexual marriages, kids are not possible, and these are regarded as not sinful, and given that 50% of heterosexual marriages end in divorce, which is not sinful?

    The first three are somewhat related to the OP, so let me attempt to facilitate an understanding on your part, if that is possible. I’m trying to be helpful and nothing else here. Why same-sex unions (the faithful and loving kind) are sinful in the eyes of God and the Church has been covered by Elizabeth and other Catholic posters in this forum ad nauseum. As she said, no one can force your acceptance of Church teaching even if you regard yourself as a member of the Church, although faithful members give their assent to what the Church teaches. The last one (No. 4) will have to be addressed in another thread, another time.

    Please read Prof. George’s paper, especially the section of the contents below that are bolded. The reason Elizabeth keeps pointing to it as a good source is because the arguments are best expressed by the author. No need to re-invent the wheel. The whole treatise is excellent, but it would appear that said sections are relevant to your questions.

    WHAT IS MARRIAGE?
    I.
    A. Equality, Justice, and the Heart of the Debate
    B. Real Marriage Is—And Is Only—The Union of Husband and Wife
    1. Comprehensive Union
    2. Special Link to Children
    3. Marital Norms
    **C. How Would Gay Civil Marriage Affect You or Your Marriage? p.260
    1. Weakening Marriage
    2. Obscuring the Value of Opposite‐Sex Parenting As an Ideal
    3. Threatening Moral and Religious Freedom
    D. If Not Same‐Sex Couples, Why Infertile Ones? p. 265
    1. Still Real Marriages
    2. Still in the Public Interest
    E. Challenges for Revisionists p.269
    1. The State Has an Interest in Regulating Some Relationships?
    2. Only if They Are Romantic?
    3. Only if They Are Monogamous?**
    F. Isn’t Marriage Just Whatever We Say It Is?

    II .
    A. Why Not Spread Traditional Norms to the Gay Community?
    B. What About Partners’ Concrete Needs?
    C. Doesn’t the Conjugal Conception of Marriage Sacrifice Some People’s Fulfillment for Others’?
    D. Isn’t It Only Natural?
    E. Doesn’t Traditional Marriage Law Impose Controversial Moral and Religious Views on Everyone?

    CONCLUSION p.286
 
BigE,

In addition to the above, this may also be helpful in understanding the reasons that gay “marriage” is not acceptable to many segments in society:

Why Not Gay Marriage?

Spin a globe and pick virtually any place on earth at any previous time in human history; you will find that they do marriage one way — between men and women. There may be other differences, but marriage has always required a husband and a wife. Why? Marriage teaches that men and women need each other and that children need mothers and fathers.

A loving and compassionate society comes to the aid of motherless and fatherless children, but no compassionate society intentionally deprives children of their own mom or dad.

But this is what every same-sex home does — and for no other reason but to satisfy adult desire.

*“How will my same-sex marriage hurt your marriage?” *

Same-sex marriage advocates want to force everyone to dramatically and permanently alter our definition of marriage and family. The great, historic, cross-cultural understanding of marriage as the union of husband and wife will be called bigotry in the public square.
The law will teach your children and grandchildren that there is nothing special about mothers and fathers raising children together, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a bigot.

*“Is same-sex marriage like interracial marriage?” * Laws against interracial marriage were about keeping two races apart, so that one race could oppress the other, and that is wrong. Marriage is about bringing male and female together, so that children have mothers and fathers, and so that women aren’t stuck with the enormous, unfair burdens of parenting alone— and that is good.

Is polygamy next?” Jonathan Yarbrough, part of the first couple to get a same-sex marriage in Provincetown, Mass, said, “I think it’s possible to love more than one person and have more than one partner. . . . In our case, it is. We have an open marriage.” Once you rip a ship off its mooring who knows where it will drift next?

“What will happen to our church organizations?” After same-sex marriage is created, will the statement, “Children need a mother and a father” be deemed hate speech? In Massachusetts, the Boston Globe said so: “Governor Romney is denigrating gay families, practicing divisive, mean-spirited politics . . . by insisting that every child ‘has a right to a mother and a father.’” Right now, for example, the Catholic Church is being challenged in Canada because a local parish refused to rent out their church reception hall when they learned the reception was for a lesbian couple. Legal scholars warn that the tax exempt status and accreditation of church organizations could be at risk.

*“What will public school teach?” * Consider a recent National Public Radio story from Boston. An eighth-grade teacher there teaches about gay sex “thoroughly and explicitly.” When asked if parents complained about their children learning such explicit material, this teacher said, “Give me a break. It’s legal now.” Heather and her two Mommies will become standard kindergarten fare. Our children need to hear a positive message about marriage.

Gays and lesbians have a legal right to live as they choose, they don’t have a right to redefine marriage for all of us.

Source: Why Not Gay Marriage?
 
If I understand your exchange of posts with Elizabeth, it appears that her explanations have not satisfied your questions:


  1. *]How does gay marriage harm families and children?
    *]How do homosexual relationships harm the common good?
    *]Why is a faithful, monogamous same-sex union not at par with faithful, monogamous heterosexual union? Why is it considered sinful by the Church?

    *]Why are less marital relationsions (not both unitive and procreative) sinful, given that in some heterosexual marriages, kids are not possible, and these are regarded as not sinful, and given that 50% of heterosexual marriages end in divorce, which is not sinful?

    The first three are somewhat related to the OP, so let me attempt to facilitate an understanding on your part, if that is possible. I’m trying to be helpful and nothing else here. Why same-sex unions (the faithful and loving kind) are sinful in the eyes of God and the Church has been covered by Elizabeth and other Catholic posters in this forum ad nauseum. As she said, no one can force your acceptance of Church teaching even if you regard yourself as a member of the Church, although faithful members give their assent to what the Church teaches. The last one (No. 4) will have to be addressed in another thread, another time.

    Please read Prof. George’s paper, especially the section of the contents below that are bolded. The reason Elizabeth keeps pointing to it as a good source is because the arguments are best expressed by the author. No need to re-invent the wheel. The whole treatise is excellent, but it would appear that said sections are relevant to your questions.

    WHAT IS MARRIAGE?
    I.
    A. Equality, Justice, and the Heart of the Debate
    B. Real Marriage Is—And Is Only—The Union of Husband and Wife
    1. Comprehensive Union
    2. Special Link to Children
    3. Marital Norms
    C. How Would Gay Civil Marriage Affect You or Your Marriage? p.260
    1. Weakening Marriage
    2. Obscuring the Value of Opposite‐Sex Parenting As an Ideal
    3. Threatening Moral and Religious Freedom

    D. If Not Same‐Sex Couples, Why Infertile Ones? p. 265
    1. Still Real Marriages
    2. Still in the Public Interest

    E. Challenges for Revisionists p.269
    1. The State Has an Interest in Regulating Some Relationships?
    2. Only if They Are Romantic?
    3. Only if They Are Monogamous?


    F. Isn’t Marriage Just Whatever We Say It Is?

    II .
    A. Why Not Spread Traditional Norms to the Gay Community?
    B. What About Partners’ Concrete Needs?
    C. Doesn’t the Conjugal Conception of Marriage Sacrifice Some People’s Fulfillment for Others’?
    D. Isn’t It Only Natural?
    E. Doesn’t Traditional Marriage Law Impose Controversial Moral and Religious Views on Everyone?

    CONCLUSION p.286

  1. ISOG,

    I appreciate you trying to understand my position. Thank you.

    Yes…you have identified my first two questions correctly (although I am not necessarily tied to calling a gay relationship “marriage”. I am ok with leaving marriage as defined between a man and a women. What I am for, is somehow recognizing a committed, monogamous gay relationship. Call it a union or something other than marriage.)

    Relative to the third question; I understand fully why a same sex union is not on par with a heterosexual one. And I agree with that. I have never tried to argue otherwise. I have only wondered why “less than optimal” has to defined as sinful when many heterosexual marriages have been less than optimal? (my question #4).

    I will read the George article.
 
think about this. Think how you feel about homosexuals. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe they feel the same way about christianity? There are all of these different “sins” but homosexuality seams to be all christians ever dislike. Does it say in the bible that homosexuality is a “double sin” or “extra bad”?? Is it worse than stealing? Murder? Rape?
Just think that maybe they were born that way. If you don’t even consider it, than you are just as ignorant as they think you are.
 
think about this. Think how you feel about homosexuals. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe they feel the same way about christianity? There are all of these different “sins” but homosexuality seams to be all christians ever dislike. Does it say in the bible that homosexuality is a “double sin” or “extra bad”?? Is it worse than stealing? Murder? Rape?
Just think that maybe they were born that way. If you don’t even consider it, than you are just as ignorant as they think you are.
Feelings are a pretty poor gauge of reality. Whether homosexual acts are more or less serious isn’t the point. As a grave injustise to the true nature of the human person they potentially completely separate the sinner from God. If left unrepented this may result in permanent separation for eternity.

“They” were not born to sin nor to be outside of God presence. To the extent these things are unknown, there is ignorance.
 
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