Homosexuals and the Holy Eucharist

[Seatuck]

I second the suggestion for your Priest to get in contact with Courage. The Priests there have experience with ministry to practicing and non practicing homosexuals. There are meetings, retreats, reading materials available.

www.couragerc.net

 

[Dale_M]

The past few weeks in our meetings we’ve been watching interviews and reading transcripts. The stories are SAD. And tragic. And very, very difficult at times. Most of these people are hurting – they NEED ministry, and love, and support. They need to know that the C/church cares.

What they don’t need is a checklist of what’s wrong with their lives and how they are. I’ve started to realize that they don’t always know what’s wrong and they’re not just going against it out of spite for God. Quite the contrary – many of the people we’ve interviewed are some of the strongest Christians I’ve seen! Often, their faith is unshakable because, for whatever reason, God has set them on this course and they have to deal with it and come to terms with it in some way. Some of them are still struggling. Some of them have said, “forget it – I don’t want the church if they don’t want me.”

Thank you for sharing your experiences and insights. I think the concerns you mention are all the more reason to tread carefully and to get help from those who have been dealing with the topic for a long time. So like others here, I would recommend seeking advice from the experts at Courage.

 

[blessedtoo]

I am working on a project right now in which we have interviewed over 100 Christians who are gay,

I think its often the same way with LGBT – its not a part of their worldview.

Lois, I guess I’m confused by the contradiction of your statements. You interviewed Christians who had sad stories to tell about their experiences with their respective Churches. This would lead me to believe that, at one time in their lives, they did understand the sinfulness of homosexual behavior, and that they decided to pursue this lifestyle in spite of this knowledge.

You can’t just tell someone, “what you’re doing is wrong,” if they have no basis on which to accept that judgement.

So it would seem to me, based on what you gleaned from your interviews, that they did have a basis on which to accept the judgement of the sinfulness of this lifestyle. And have deliberately rejected it.

I don’t think that it’s as easy as “well, give up your lifestyle.” There’s just too many factors involved to make things that simple. You don’t tell an alcoholic to “well, just quit drinking!”

Actually, that’s exactly what is done with alcoholics. The first step when one enters rehab is to stop drinking. When one’s mind begins to clear, the real work begins. Even in AA, one day at a time refers to not taking a drink for that one day. When one is immersed in the sin of homosexual activity (or any sinful behavior), the mind and heart will have great difficulty seeing and accepting the truth. In sin, one is simply too invested in protecting their “right” to continue living this way.

 

[lois_lane]

Let me clarify – I mean sad in that the church has been very destructive, oppressive, and in some cases, downright mean and awful. One interview subject has told a terrible story of self-mutilation because he was from a very conservative, strict Christian family (in the AG church) and he knew that nobody would ever understand or love him if he were to come out – let alone try to encourage and support him in what would ultimately be a difficult life…it was sad.

And, there does exist all kinds of people – e.g., some lesbians & gays do think that their behavior (not necessarily their orientation) is wrong and they want to change it. Others don’t see it as wrong – much of those ideas depend on how they were raised, what church they went to, who they form relationships with, etc.

If anyone wants to know more about the project, please visit our blog at:

www.7passages.blogspot.com

Finally, remember that the person heading up this project is a very strong reformed Christian – so a lot of the project is coming out of her reformed theology (the ideas of total depravity, complete reliance on the scriptures as ultimate authority, etc.) I am giving the lone Catholic voice to this project (and I’m not even catholic yet) – which is another reason why it has been difficult for me!

 

[goofyjim]

Whether we have a ministry or not I am sure many homosexuals, active and inactive, just keep quiet about it with others and receive the Eucharist anyhow. When these are the circumstances there is nothing we can do. We cannot go out on a witch hunt for them.

 

[JLSacred]

Whether we have a ministry or not I am sure many homosexuals, active and inactive, just keep quiet about it with others and receive the Eucharist anyhow. When these are the circumstances there is nothing we can do. We cannot go out on a witch hunt for them.

I agree. Our Church is basically run on the honor system.

 

[Riley259]

My pastor is proposing to begin a ministry to lesbians and gays by making our parish a “welcoming church.” He has asked for feedback on this from me and the other members of the pastoral council. My gut feeling is positive in that I’d like to bring the good news of Christ to these people. I’ve read the USCCB statement “Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination” which I found to be very informative and helpful.

I still have a concern, however, and it has to do with welcoming homosexuals into full participation within our parish without making it clear to them that homosexual acts are sinful. In particular, I don’t feel that it would be right for them to partake of holy communion while still engaged in a homosexual lifestyle, without any intention to change. (In fairness, I also feel this way about the straight men and women in our church who are cohabiting, yet who receive communion with no compunction at all about their behavior.)

Any insight you can offer would be appreciated…

You need to be very careful here. If the ministry is both an attempt at bringing those with same-sex attraction in full communion with the Church while at the same tim clearly explaining the Church’s official teaching on homosexual relations and any sexual relations outside of marriage then I would say it is a good thing to do. However, if it is just a dissident ministry that tacitly endorses homosexual relations and essentially ignores Church teaching on these matters (ex., the group Dignity) then I’d strongly oppose it if I were you. If the Church wants to start hanging rainbows with pithy phrases such as “We’re an inclusive church” outside the church, then that’s a big red flag in my opinion.

 

[Crumpy]

Is he going to propose a ministry for other people who have same sex attraction? or Is it going to be for those who live in a persistant state or mortal sin?

I sickens me that Gays get all the attention. What about others. Why do gays get the “special” ministries…they are not the only people who carry a cross!! there are pedophiles out there that need ministry too…what about cleptomaniacs? we are all sinners why does one group need to be singled out as special!?!

I agree with your general complaint. I actually connected with Mother Angelica once on her Live program, and complained that EWTN was almost preoccupied with abortion, to the exclusion of many other things, like adultery and fornication, and so one.

Mother Angelica did not smile or laugh or dodge the question. She said that abortion was the absolutely worst thing that was going on in the U.S. right now.

She really stepped over the part of my question that had to do with the need I see for just general evangelization of people.

For example, you name any problem, and I would sense that there is someone who is not deeply evangelized in general. So, too, how do you convince them to avoid abortion, without giving them a crash course on Christianity, and addressing along the way the fornication, adultery, or irresponsible life style or whatever it was that was leading the woman to the point of having an abortion at this point?

Even though she didn’t care to admit it, I think that is the general need. Why is she and why are we so judgmental of who should be saved and where the emphasis should lie?

Surely, she was concerned about the large number of abortions among Catholic women, and I’ll give her that. At the time, most of the time I tuned in to EWTN they were talking about abortion ad nauseam.

But, too, Jesus worked that way with sinners, to heal them and urge them not to sin again. I think it takes a lot of work to overcome any sin to which one is very heavily disposed.

 

[blessedtoo]

She said that abortion was the absolutely worst thing that was going on in the U.S. right now.

It’s really hard to argue with this point because the issue of abortion is urgent in that many helpless lives are lost each day. When you consider the fervor we currently see in the “withdrawl the troops” crowd today, I think it is perfectly understandable that when people become aware that lives are being lost, they take agressive and immediate action. There is no let-up with regard to Iraq. You can’t turn on the TV or radio without hearing about it. How much more urgent is the issue of abortion, where the number of babies killed each day still exceeds the total number of soldiers who have sacrificed their lives.

The issue of homosexuality is receiving so much attention here and in other Catholic media because of the current cultural and political emphasis on normalizing this behavior. If bills and laws were not being proposed every day in every state to up-end marriage laws, parental rights law, children’s rights law, etc., there would not be so much attention. The “preoccupation” with this issue is an agressive attempt to respond to the current onslaught of social and legal maneuvers by homosexual activists.

 

[JLSacred]

This point is very perceptive. I agree!!!

It’s really hard to argue with this point because the issue of abortion is urgent in that many helpless lives are lost each day. When you consider the fervor we currently see in the “withdrawl the troops” crowd today, I think it is perfectly understandable that when people become aware that lives are being lost, they take agressive and immediate action. There is no let-up with regard to Iraq. You can’t turn on the TV or radio without hearing about it. How much more urgent is the issue of abortion, where the number of babies killed each day still exceeds the total number of soldiers who have sacrificed their lives.

The issue of homosexuality is receiving so much attention here and in other Catholic media because of the current cultural and political emphasis on normalizing this behavior. If bills and laws were not being proposed every day in every state to up-end marriage laws, parental rights law, children’s rights law, etc., there would not be so much attention. The “preoccupation” with this issue is an agressive attempt to respond to the current onslaught of social and legal maneuvers by homosexual activists.

 

[seafarer]

The father of your church could just make confession available for all before the mass. That way everyone would be in a state of perfect grace to receive communion.

 

[Novice1]

I too belong to a parish that started a gay Mass a few months ago, but now the Masses have ended. The problem of not being clear about whether the Church’s teaching would be relayed to those attending was a major concern. Unfortunately more problems have arisen and now some more orthodox members of the parish have been unfairly maligned. My take away from the situation in our parish, along with what is going on in other Churches in our country and the general direction of society is that whenever one begins to think that they know better than God they are headed for trouble. As far as the emotional dificulty a person with a ssa may have, the Church continues to emphasize that charity should guide us in our actions. Along with charity we must love them as we love ourselves. I would hope that we all love ourselves so much that we only want to know the Truth, (eventhough it is sometimes difficult to hear) and that also you would tell someone you love that they were doing something wrong if it could hurt them. My mother still does that with me, God Bless her for that. How much do I really care for someone if I keep the truth from them because it might hurt their feelings. Please do not let misguided compassion lead someone down a path of possible destruction. We all have to answer to God for what we do and what we do not do.
I agree that you should advise your Parish Council to seek an alternative to a gay Mass, such as Courage, (couragerc.net). Also I read the last letter regarding homosexuals the bishops published when meeting in Baltimore, MD. They specifically said that parishes should do all they could to include those with ssa and not separate them. The letter is worth reading. Having a separate Mass for them looks like we are saying they are not good enough to eat at the same table as everyone else.
This is my first time using a forum, I hope I contributed to your discussion in a fruitful way and that I did not hurt anyone. But please know what I said truly is in charity and love

 

[Eireann]

The father of your church could just make confession available for all before the mass. That way everyone would be in a state of perfect grace to receive communion.

He could, but ? Confession is not to be used as a licence to receive and then go back to our old ways.

It involves a change of heart, it involves reforming our lives, to use Confession like this is not sincere, and maybe leaving us in a worse state than we were before.

IMO to use the Sacrament like this is a mockery, I’m not saying you implied that in your post, but just stating something. (in-case)

And Novice 1 …good post.

 

[seafarer]

I agree we can not say that it is not sinful but we must not forget that we all including the pope are sinful and must struggle with our own inner experiences to come to God and accept his love for us and in turn show that love to all our brothers and sisters. People tend to focus on the sins they do not personally commit but see in others while ignoring the sins that they commit and hope no others see. When ever anything troubles me i try to use my mind and heart and concience to wonder what would Jesus say in this situation. We should always reflect on that and keep that in mind in all we do. I thinks may things we do and take for granted would not sit well if we looked at it through Jesus’s eyes.

 

[ALBACIENTIS]

This is a very direct question, an honest question:
Are thre really enough statistics about homosexuals switching their sex options after months and months ( even years ) of praying and the Holy Eucharist ?
Prostestants claim that many homosexuals have converted after what they call ACCEPTING JESUS AS THE ONLY SAVIOUR.Are they lying ? Is homosexuality a really ’ healable ’ condition in any religion ?
I do not find very attractive the idea of chastity. Attractive is to havbe a really creative heterosesual life with our wives and children, not just repressing an urge.I would say that it is not only not attractive but also impossible to follow a thread of chastity. In general I have that only problem with my religion = chastity seems to be unhealthy, as unhealthy as promiscuity. Many lives have been torn by repressd sexuality. I guess we agree that if sublimation and chastity is not eep it can derive into neurosis and repression.
I am not judging religion, do not misunderstand me. I accept God’s laws, I only try to be rational and practical. With common sense. As long as people fight all their live with their gred, envy or gluttony, I find that we can alsoaccept a degree of freedom in the sexual field, but I am not uite sure. My questions are no liberal poison, I have good will. I just have doubts. For instance I find impossible that a boy can keep his heterosesual chastity from age 13 till 30 when he marries. 17 years of abstinence are, at least for me, impossible. For Saint Francis it was a torture, they say,he threw himself on the snow to calm down. Is that good, is that healthy ? It gives me lots of food for thought.
God bless us all !

 

[ALBACIENTIS]

15 years ago I confessed with a German priest in Bavaria, a small city by a lake . He told me he accepted a homosexual couple to read the word and recieve Communion. I am gay myself and judge it as very heretic. It is tough: I do not like to ’ wash and wear ’ my soul whenever I commit my sins. I mean Sin then confession, sin , confession, that chain, you know. But, a big but, a priest should never encourage consumming the Holy Host in Mortal Sin !
The subject here is ideological: they want to remove the very sense of SIN !
I allowed myself to tell the Priest I thought he was absolutely wrong in accepting a gay couple reading the word if they were not following the Commandments. I guess today about 50% of the people who go to church receive the Holy Host in Mortal Sin. That is terrible !
It is easy, one gets to the church and sees two, three, at most 15 persons making a queue to confess their sins, , churches are confessionls most of the week and about 200 pople receive the Holy Host.
In Spain some priests say that " IT DOESN’T MATTER, you can confess LATER " ( Believe it or not ) I lived in Spain and in Germany.
I am not a typical bigot, I am a sinner, but a ‘good sinner’, as Mons Fulton J. Sheen described them, for I acknowledge the Law. “Bad sinners” commit sins and argue with the Law or give EASY theories. If sin changes according to eras then here is no sin at all, and that is what some ideoligcally pervert minds try to instill in many brains.
Howvr on must avoid he witch hunt and if one is against impurity one MUST also accept the NOT TO KILL commandment and be against wars. The Commandments are not to be discussed but obeyed and clarified., That is what I tend to say in my writings.
I can accept a severe acceptance of the 6 commandment but I suspect people who support chastity AND are glad for wars on the grounds that they are deffending peace.
The first martyrs did not reject agression with weapons. They accepted it as God’s Will and suffered in their flesh the consecuuences. They were tortured,killed, we know. What did they do ? They SANG AND PRAYED. No war. No army, no bigottry !
So if they did such an heroic thing one can understand that they also were chaste, one can understand a homogenoeus, coherent behaviour in which LOVE and true OBEDEINCE to what Our Lord advised, was more than evident.

 

[Novice1]

Albacientis, eventhough I am not gay, and am a woman, I want to at least address your post. I do however have things that I struggle with in my life and although sexual desires can be very strong they can over time be managed and put in their proper place.It is with the many Graces received from the Sacrament of Penance and frequent reception of the Eucharist, reading the lives of the Saints (remember though they were not perfect, but they loved Jesus more than anything), and trusting in God. Remember when Peter tried to walk on the water to get to Jesus, then he became frightened, Jesus took his hand and helped him back to the boat. Peter is a great Saint to pray to when it comes to human frailties. Also remember God knows what is in your heart, noone else, He loves you so much and he will carry you through to the other side, to where He wants you to be. You can also take the moments you have of frustration or sadness and offer them to our Blessed Mother to use them for the good of souls. Any of your troubles can be used to help souls, especially those in Purgatory. The more you learn about the Catholic Church and the more you focus on God you will be amazed at the peace you will experience. A very dear monk friend of mine always reminds me to focus on what God can do, not on what I can’t do-he says that is the secret to success.
God Bless You

 

[blessedtoo]

Are thre really enough statistics about homosexuals switching their sex options after months and months ( even years ) of praying and the Holy Eucharist ?
Prostestants claim that many homosexuals have converted after what they call ACCEPTING JESUS AS THE ONLY SAVIOUR.Are they lying ? Is homosexuality a really ’ healable ’ condition in any religion ?

It depends on what you mean by “enough”. There are statistics of course and they can be found pretty easily online. Dr. Nicolosi has written extensively on the subject. The organization Courage can be very beneficial for homosexual persons striving to live a chaste life. But the Church does not require an SSA individual to “switch” the orientation in order to live a faithful Catholic life.

I do not find very attractive the idea of chastity. Attractive is to havbe a really creative heterosesual life with our wives and children, not just repressing an urge.I would say that it is not only not attractive but also impossible to follow a thread of chastity. In general I have that only problem with my religion = chastity seems to be unhealthy, as unhealthy as promiscuity. Many lives have been torn by repressd sexuality. I guess we agree that if sublimation and chastity is not eep it can derive into neurosis and repression.

I suspect you have not fully researched the Catholic concept of chastity, due to the descriptions you’ve given. Everyone is expected to practice chastity, even folks who are married. The spiritual moderation of our sexual appetite is no different than the moderation we practice with all our other drives. Because our culture tells us that we should never “repress” our sexual urges, we interpret that to mean that we should be able to do whatever, whenever, and wherever. There is nothing unhealthy about chastity. In fact, the dysfunction we see all throughout our society (abortion, out of wedlock pregnancy, co-habitation, multiple partners, divorce, homosexual marriage, etc) is due to the lack of restraint. However, if you view chastity as nothing more than "supression’ then I suspect you will find it quite frustrating. From the Catechism:
[

](http://javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2339.htm’)

2339 Chastity includes an apprenticeship in self-mastery which is a training in human freedom. The alternative is clear: either man governs his passions and finds peace, or he lets himself be dominated by them and becomes unhappy.
2341 The virtue of chastity comes under the cardinal virtue of temperance, which seeks to permeate the passions and appetites of the senses with reason.

 

[sacredcello]

We have a wonderful priest in my parish; a very gentle and loving soul, who is living a chaste life, according to the teachings of the Church and (I happen to know) he considers himself to be a gay man. He is a convert to the Catholic faith, and it is clear that in the Protestant faith of his childhood, there was no room for a gay man who felt called to live a chaste life; he would have been terribly misunderstood. This Father is such a blessing to our parish, as his sermons are so heartfelt and he clearly loves Jesus and the Church.

On the other hand, I am deeply disturbed by the lifestyle of the Music Director at my parish where I sing in the choir. He is a Catholic who receives the Eucharist every Sunday, and his partner is a paid cantor (non-Catholic) who sings with us. I am troubled, not by the choice of lifestyle (I am a musician, so many of my friends are gay), but that he is setting an example that it is perfectly fine to receive communion while going against the teachings of the church. This especially bothers me because he spends a significant amount of rehearsal time talking about spiritual matters, leading us in a discussion of the gospel, etc. He once even interpreted Luke 4:16-30 to imply that the poor and oppressed referred to in this passage are gay people (oppressed by the narrow views of the Church).

Anyone have thoughts on this?

 

[Eireann]

Anyone have thoughts on this?

Yes, you need to bring it to the attention of someone in higher authority, and since you say your priest is living a chaste life in-spite of his cross, then maybe him.