Homosexuals and the Holy Eucharist

[setter]

Lots of good thoughts on this confusing topic. It is extremely difficult for those who are not SSA (Same Sex Attracted) to fully understand the complexity of the problem.

The Church is clear and compassionate that homosexual acts are sinful. It is not a “confusing topic”.

I understand that the church can never fully condone the behavior.

Are you implying that the Church will some day partially condone homosexual acts?

It does present a problem both for the church in how to minister to these people, and to the Catholics who suffer from it.

A challenge perhaps, but not a problem.

I believe in most cases today, homosexuality does NOT meet the 3 criteria for mortal sin and I will explain my reasons.
[1] Is it Grave Matter? Well, I suppose it is. I’m not sure that its graver than murder, stealing or bearing false witness, and degree does supposedly matter. But let’s just say, that yes, it is grave matter.

Can you be any more clear and sure in your opinion? …

[2] Full Knowledge? Homosexual tendencies begin when one is very young. Often as young as 7 or 8 years old. As the child grows older, the feelings become stronger. He/she does NOT understand what’s happening or why they have these feelings.

SSA is not a matter of feelings. It is a disordered psychosexual identity. Children in latency age of development, i.e., pre-pubescent, do not have SSA.

And they don’t understand at that young age to what degree it will affect them later in life. The urges grow, and because they are children, they are not equipped to control or confront them.

Children are not sexualized in their feelings, unless they have been visually or physically exposed to sexualized activity, and even then is is not sexual attraction, which children simply are not cognitively/psychologically capable of. This is why sexual predation of children is especially such a heinous offense.

So, full knowlege and understanding really is debatable. And if its accepted that full knowledge implies Full Understanding then I would say no, in these cases, full knowledge isn’t present.

You are making your case based on alleged onset of SSA in children? …this is bizarre, strange and suspect all in one. Please explain yourself.

[3] COMPLETE CONSENT? Often, children who are growing up homosexual believe they will be all better and normal when they grow up.

Again, it is a fallacy and misnomer to claim that children are “homosexual” – please educate yourself on the basics of psychosexual development …it is unbecoming to sexualize children.

The problem for them is that they are not attracted to the opposite sex, so **they seek out a parter **of the same sex. (Often this done most reluctantly) By the time they are an adult the **behavior patterns **are established.

“seek out …”, “behavior patterns”, …hence, free will choices have been made and established.

The thought patterns are established. The emotional framework is in place. Complete consent is not given here (I don’t believe). If all this started in childhood, can a child consent? … To undo all of the above by the time one is an adult is a monumental task. Maybe impossible.

It did not all start in childhood, as I have pointed out that children are not developmentally capable of homosexual thoughts, feelings and sexual attraction. To contend otherwise is a gross irgnorance or lewd part of the greater homosexual apologist agenda.

Finally, ccc 1860 says: “… The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders…”
For the above reasons. In many cases, it doesn’t have to be a mortal sin.

Are you suggesting that an adult with a predominant SSA is less culpable of serious or mortal sin than a adult counterpart with OSA who is likewise participating in pre-marriage sexual activity?

1. What is at all costs to be avoided is the unfounded and demeaning assumption that the sexual behaviour of homosexual persons is always and totally compulsive and therefore inculpable. What is essential is that the fundamental liberty which characterizes the human person and gives him his dignity be recognized as belonging to the homosexual person as well. As in every conversion from evil, the abandonment of homosexual activity will require a profound collaboration of the individual with God’s liberating grace.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html

 

[MisterT]

Dear sacredcello,

I was baptized as a child, confirmed as a teen, raised in the Catholic church, attended Catholic schools all my life…shall I go on? I think that pretty much covers why I am a Catholic.

I have no desire to switch to another religion in order to “accommodate” being homosexual.

I do not reject any of the teachings of the pope or any laws of the Catholic religion. I am in total compliance with all the laws except for chastity. This is because I do not believe that love is wrong, whether it is shared between two men or a man and woman.

It is truly amazing to me that several people here have taken my words and twisted them into their way of thinking…even after I have written that no one can know what I know and feel what I feel and experience what I experience UNLESS they are gay. A member named davidv questioned why I chose to obey only one law and ignore others. I never said that…why would he jump to that conclusion? You, yourself, have inferred that I think the pope will no longer have credibility. Where did THAT come from?

Let me state my current situation again. I CHOOSE to be in compliance with all Catholic laws EXCEPT for chastity. I also accept the fact that I can not receive communion because of this. When I recite the Apostle’s creed in church each week, I believe every word of it and mean every word when I speak it.

If you read and accepted what I have just written in the previous paragraph, then the only question ANYONE should have is WHY I choose this. I have give that answer over and over but, because heterosexuals can not understand what it is to be gay, the answer to WHY is not understood. It seems to be judged and condemned and disected for signs of weakness. That saddens me. It saddens me that there is intolerance. Instead of being happy for me that I have God in my life as well as a gay partner, I am told this is not God’s way or intent for me.

I am 51 years old. I can assure everyone that I have experienced enough delusional people to tell who is kidding themselves and who has a good grasp on what it true and real. It is not delusion to know that intolerance is wrong. It is not delusion to know that acceptance is the Lord’s wish. It is definitely not delusion to know that only God will judge me. He knows that I have total conviction when I say that sharing love with my partner is a beautiful, wonderful, life affirming blessing…not a sin. If He knows this, why won’t you accept it when I say it?

Dear sacredcello, I may ask the same thing of you that you asked of me. Why choose the Catholic church if there are people like me in it? Why choose a church because it suits your need for a strong moral center? Islamic religions have much stricter laws than Catholics, forbidding MUCH more. Why not join them?

Finally, I would like to state (please let this be the time that everyone gets this, Lord) that I did not CHOOSE to be gay. God made me this way. You did not CHOOSE to be heterosexual. God made you that way. Everyone can reject this until the cows come home, with scientific study and theological interpretations, but it does not mitigate its truth. Unless you can p(name removed by moderator)oint the day where you or I made a concious decision to be gay or straight, you MUST accept the fact it is true. And you and I both know there was never a day this happened…don’t even tell me it was the day you accepted God into your heart because you would be saying that I did NOT accept God in my heart. I would not be having this conversation on this website if that were true because I would not care.

My love to you and my hopes that God Himself will provide the answers that I can not give you.

 

[buffalo]

I do not reject any of the teachings of the pope or any laws of the Catholic religion. I am in total compliance with all the laws except for chastity. This is because I do not believe that love is wrong, whether it is shared between two men or a man and woman.

Chaste brotherly love or sisterly love is not a sin.

Basically, you are stating you know better than the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church about chastity.

One who rejects teachings of the church is minimally a cafeteria catholic and at the most a heretic.

 

[StevenFrancis]

Someone earlier in this thread said this was a complicated and complex matter. It really is not. There are few things in the bible, tradition, etc. that are this clear and straightforward. In fact when agreement was made to spread the law to the gentiles and the greeks, sexual morality was an item not negotiable. It simply IS. Why God would choose to create men and women with same sex identification is beyond our understanding. In fact, why God would create any persons imbued with lust for any sex is a mystery, since lust itself is a sin. Never the less, because of the fall, all of us have crosses to bear. Catholics and Jews in order to be in compliance with the word of God, and be in full communion with their faith must refrain from homosexual action. They must also refrain from ALL sexual action outside of the holy bond of marriage between a man and a woman which is open to possibility of procreation. Period. Whether homosexual, heterosexual, bi-sexual, or aroused by animals, or inanimate objects, we are to refrain from action on these lusts as our cross unless are called to the vocation of Marriage.

You have free will. You can accept these things as true, or not. How you rationalize things here on earth is of little importance. Getting your way with society, Church, or any other thing doesn’t change the sin. It only changes societies view of the sin so the sinner doesn’t have to feel as much guilt. Even if every church in the world, and every society on earth openly embraced homosexuality, or pre-marital sex, or incest, or bigamy, or whatever, it doesn’t have one single iota of effect on the actual validity of the sin in the eyes of God. I have plenty of sins to answer for, and I am attempting to do so. I’m not trying to speak from any place of arrogance or betterness or anything at all. These laws of God effect ALL of us equally. Homosexuality is just another form of disordered sexual thought, as is adultry, pre-marital sex, lust, incest, beastiality, etc. etc. It all exists, and it is all wrong. We may not be able to control the thoughts coming up now and again, but we can sure control the actions. Plenty of folks do. What we as a society need to quit doing is justifying our impurities to the point of not only making them acceptable, but forcing a tinge of guilt for disapproving of these sins.

We all need to love and help one another. I STRONGLY disapprove of bigotry of any kind. Homosexuals should be able to serve in the military, work any job, etc. If the best they can muster is a CELIBATE life partner arrangement with a FRIEND of the same sex, and cohabitate for a number of years, they should be able to file joint tax returns, etc., and pass on death benefits to their life friend, so long as they are not living in sin, i.e. having sex outside of heterosexual marriage. When sex DOES occur, it needs to be treated as a sin. Just as when a person gives into adultry, or pre-marital sex. There should be confession, and a sincere turning away from the sin prior to participating in eucharist again.

People WANT this to be a complicated issue, but it really isn’t.

Love all people. Do not discriminate or do violence to anyone. Be accepting of their faults, however do not go so far as to encourage sin, or begin to believe that sins can “change” or become less vulgar over time, just because society says so. It’s the same sin it was 2000 years ago. Sin doesn’t change.

If you’re engaged in homosexual conduct, (or any of the other unacceptable sexual conducts for that matter. Heteros have just as many problems), accept that you are sinning, and act accordingly when temptation gets the best of you. Confess, be remorseful, do your penance, and attempt to go from then on without giving in to that sin. If you do, get right back into the confessional, and keep working on it through prayer.

Nobody is doing themselves, or anyone else in society any favors by continued self-justification, because it is not an earthly authority who is being offended. The sins are against God, who will judge. People on earth should NOT judge, in fact. Nor should they condone that which is clear and known sin.

Caesar’s laws regarding these matters are irrelavant. So you may have an easier earthly life if all is allowed. It doesn’t change your obligations at death, now matter HOW tolerant society, or even Churches become. What we do on earth does not change God.

These thoughts are given in the spirit of love. I know people struggle. My heart goes out to all persons, of all sexuality, for the crosses we must all bear.

Peace be with you all,

Yours in Christ,

Steven

 

[setter]

I have no desire to switch to another religion in order to “accommodate” being homosexual.

**I do not reject any **of the teachings of the pope or any laws of the Catholic religion. I am in total compliance with all the laws except for chastity.

This is a self-contradictory statement.

This is because I do not believe that love is wrong, whether it is shared between two men or a man and woman.

What matters is what God has defined as “love” based on the truth of His creation as found in natural and revealed moral law.

It is truly amazing to me that several people here have taken my words and twisted them into their way of thinking…even after I have written that no one can know what I know and feel what I feel and experience what I experience UNLESS they are gay.

Subjective personal experience can never be the basis for what is truth.

Let me state my current situation again. I CHOOSE to be in compliance with all Catholic laws EXCEPT for chastity. I also accept the fact that I can not receive communion because of this. When I recite the Apostle’s creed in church each week, I believe every word of it and mean every word when I speak it.

Get some courage, or pray that God will give you the courage and strength to break free from this bondage to sin that putting at great peril the eternal destiny of your soul.

If you read and accepted what I have just written in the previous paragraph, then the only question ANYONE should have is WHY I choose this.

It does not matter why, but what you do now, today forward that God will judge you by.

I am 51 years old.

Time is running out …“If today you hear His voice, harden not you hearts”.

Finally, I would like to state (please let this be the time that everyone gets this, Lord) that I did not CHOOSE to be gay. God made me this way.

Quit blaming God and take some adult, mature Christian discipleship responsibility for your sinful actions and lifestyle choices – this is what you will be judged by …and do it for the love of God.

My love to you and my hopes that God Himself will provide the answers that I can not give you.

This much you got right.

 

[blessedtoo]

**

I believe

in most cases today, homosexuality does NOT meet the 3 criteria for mortal sin and I will explain my reasons.
[1] Is it Grave Matter? Well, I suppose it is. I’m not sure that its graver than murder, stealing or bearing false witness, and degree does supposedly matter. But let’s just say, that yes, it is grave matter.
**
Let’s see what the Catechism says:

****1852 ****There are a great many kinds of sins. Scripture provides several lists of them. The Letter to the Galatians contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit: "Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God."127
**1858 **Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.”

[2] Full Knowledge? Homosexual tendencies begin when one is very young. Often as young as 7 or 8 years old. As the child grows older, the feelings become stronger. He/she does NOT understand what’s happening or why they have these feelings. They might know its wrong because of what they’ve been taught, but at that age, they can’t have a full understanding of its implications. And they don’t understand at that young age to what degree it will affect them later in life. The urges grow, and because they are children, they are not equipped to control or confront them. So, full knowlege and understanding really is debatable. And if its accepted that full knowledge implies Full Understanding then I would say no, in these cases, full knowledge isn’t present.
Finally, ccc 1860 says: "… The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders…"

You neglected to include the quote driectly above the one you selected to try and prove your point. The Catechism also addresses this misconception:

******1859 ******Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. **Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin. **

It appears that you are attempting to make the point that habits and ideas formed in childhood make it nearly impossible for the adult to make an informed decision. While it is true that our culture is fond of encouraging people to lay blame for all their “issues” on dysfunctional childhoods, poor parenting, etc., there comes a point in an adult Catholic’s life where ignorance of the truth no longer excuses sin. A dear homosexual friend of mine said to me when he came to Church for the first time in 10 years, “I hope they don’t read from Leviticus at Mass.” Making the choice to not know the truth is no different than rejecting the truth outright.

 

[goofyjim]

The Church is clear and compassionate that homosexual acts are sinful. It is not a “confusing topic”.

Are you implying that the Church will some day partially condone homosexual acts?

A challenge perhaps, but not a problem.

Can you be any more clear and sure in your opinion? …

SSA is not a matter of feelings. It is a disordered psychosexual identity. Children in latency age of development, i.e., pre-pubescent, do not have SSA.

Children are not sexualized in their feelings, unless they have been visually or physically exposed to sexualized activity, and even then is is not sexual attraction, which children simply are not cognitively/psychologically capable of. This is why sexual predation of children is especially such a heinous offense.

You are making your case based on alleged onset of SSA in children? …this is bizarre, strange and suspect all in one. Please explain yourself.

Again, it is a fallacy and misnomer to claim that children are “homosexual” – please educate yourself on the basics of psychosexual development …it is unbecoming to sexualize children.

“seek out …”, “behavior patterns”, …hence, free will choices have been made and established.

It did not all start in childhood, as I have pointed out that children are not developmentally capable of homosexual thoughts, feelings and sexual attraction. To contend otherwise is a gross irgnorance or lewd part of the greater homosexual apologist agenda.

Are you suggesting that an adult with a predominant SSA is less culpable of serious or mortal sin than a adult counterpart with OSA who is likewise participating in pre-marriage sexual activity?

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html

I beg to differ with your thinking here. I knew i experienced same sex attraction long before puberty. So a child can have homosexual feelings at a young age. Unless you have walked the path do not make hasty statements.

 

[setter]

I beg to differ with your thinking here. I knew i experienced same sex attraction long before puberty. So a child can have homosexual feelings at a young age. Unless you have walked the path do not make hasty statements.

Nothing hasty in my comments. A child can have array of feelings, but they are not accurately attributed to “homosexual feelings”, as the cognitive development is not there to support such a “homosexual” psychosexual identity. Although, there can always exceptions to the norm.

Please read and inform yourself – Erikson’s stages of psychosocial development

 

[goofyjim]

Nothing hasty in my comments. A child can have array of feelings, but they are not accurately attributed to “homosexual feelings”, as the cognitive development is not there to support such a “homosexual” psychosexual identity. Although, there can always exceptions to the norm.

Please read and inform yourself – Erikson’s stages of psychosocial development

I need no outside person to tell me what was going on in my mind. I knew from a very young age that there was something different about me than other boys. I found other boys in my class attractive and was not drawn strongly enough to date girls. This only became set in by puberty it didn’t begin then. I love when someone who hasn’t walked in my shoes tells me what I go through. That’s why I have a loathing for all psychology and pscyhiatry.

 

[setter]

I need no outside person to tell me what was going on in my mind. I knew from a very young age that there was something different about me than other boys. I found other boys in my class attractive and was not drawn strongly enough to date girls. This only became set in by puberty it didn’t begin then. I love when someone who hasn’t walked in my shoes tells me what I go through. That’s why I have a loathing for all psychology and pscyhiatry.

Not to cause you further loathing, but you appear to be failing to distinguish between attraction and sexual attraction. Attraction can only become sexualized, i.e, sexual attraction, when the cognitive development can fully integrate sexuality and attraction. My point being: You are attempting to prematurely ascribe sexual meaning onto a latency phase of development.

 

[goofyjim]

Not to cause you further loathing, but you appear to be failing to distinguish between attraction and sexual attraction. Attraction can only become sexualized, i.e, sexual attraction, when the cognitive development can fully integrate sexuality and attraction. My point being: You are attempting to prematurely ascribe sexual meaning onto a latency phase of development.

No. Even at that tender young age I found myself fantasizing about my male classmates. This was in grade school so it was before puberty. I see no way to call it anything but sexual attraction. Now, granted, I have not acted on it, but I have every reason to believe I was born with same sex attraction.

 

[setter]

No. Even at that tender young age I found myself fantasizing about my male classmates. This was in grade school so it was before puberty. I see no way to call it anything but sexual attraction. Now, granted, I have not acted on it, but I have every reason to believe I was born with same sex attraction.

Then consider yourself a scientific anomaly! …

 

[goofyjim]

Then consider yourself a scientific anomaly! …

Or the first saint with same sex attraction.

 

[setter]

Or the first saint with same sex attraction.

…not to steal your thunder, but you may very well consider yourself in the company of many uncanonized brother and sister saints in the Lord.

 

[Journeyer11]

Dear Setter,

Thank you for negating absolutely every point I was trying to make. You obviously are an expert in this area, and so I defer to that expertise. I guess i’ve been wrong during the entire lifetime that I have carried these thoughts and feelings around inside my head.

As for for Goofyjim’s thoughts on all this… I say…DITTO.

 

[Journeyer11]

<<<<…Then consider yourself a scientific anomaly!..>>>

Gee, I found myself in the same exact boat as Goofyjim and at the same age…(I’d say it began around 3rd grade, but was no where fully developed to know anything about ‘sexuality.’ But the feelings were there.)

Imagine that…2 scientific anomalies!! 2, right here in one forum… What are the odds? It’s a miracle!! Or could your stats be just a little off, Setter??

 

[setter]

Dear Setter,

Thank you for negating absolutely every point I was trying to make. You obviously are an expert in this area, and so I defer to that expertise. I guess i’ve been wrong during the entire lifetime that I have carried these thoughts and feelings around inside my head.

As for for Goofyjim’s thoughts on all this… I say…DITTO.

Then as a fellow Catholic you likewise DITTO goffyjim’s commitment to chastity?

 

[setter]

<<<<…Then consider yourself a scientific anomaly!..>>>

Gee, I found myself in the same exact boat as Goofyjim and at the same age…(I’d say it began around 3rd grade, but was no where fully developed to know anything about ‘sexuality.’ But the feelings were there.)

Imagine that…2 scientific anomalies!! 2, right here in one forum… What are the odds? It’s a miracle!! Or could your stats be just a little off, Setter??

“feelings” are not the same as sexual attraction – my point being.

 

[Journeyer11]

Setter,

Now that I have some time, I will answer your very detailed forum post.

You stated:
<<<The Church is clear and compassionate that homosexual acts are sinful. It is not a “confusing topic”.>>>

—Are you homosexual? If not, then of course its not confusing to you. As far as the church being compassionate, I believe they think they are, and are trying to be, but its like putting a band-aide on a compound fracture. People with these tendencies are called to celibacy as if they were priests. But our blessed priests feel a call to service, and freely choose that life. Imagine if someone told you, you had to spend the rest of your life alone, otherwise you’d be a sinner. How do you think you’d feel?

<<<Are you implying that the Church will some day partially condone homosexual acts?>>>

No I am not.

<<<A challenge perhaps, but not a problem.>>>

You think homosexuality doesn’t present a problem for the church? Do you have any idea how many gay people have stayed away from the church because they feel their lifestyle is impossible to change, and they can’t reconcile the lifestyle with what the church teaches? Many have joined other churches, or else have given up their religion and call themselves privately “spiritual…” This isn’t a problem to you?

<<<Can you be any more clear and sure in your opinion?>>>

No, Sorry, I can’t be more clear. Unlike you, I don’t assume I’m an expert. I was just trying to be fair and just, and communicate the shades of gray that this subject can contain.

<<<SSA is not a matter of feelings. It is a disordered psychosexual identity. Children in latency age of development, i.e., pre-pubescent, do not have SSA.>>>

Did you get this from Reader’s Digest?. The framework of that “psychosexual identity” you so authoritatively speak of can start at a very young age. (Can be 2nd or 3rd grade) About the time when boys begin identifying with each other as males, doing male things, thinking and talking like males. (Sports, agressivness, matters as simple as interests that boys have, bonding…) Dominant and submissive roles are developed during this time as well. And that’s the basis for the formation of the “psyco-sexual identity” you speak of. I know it is a disorder, but it begins here…At least it did for me, so don’t tell me that I didn’t “KNOW” back when I was in 3rd grade. You’re right in that I didn’t know I was “gay.” and my sexual feelings weren’t fully developed. I didn’t want to get a boy in bed at that time. But, the way you feel and relate to the 2 genders begins to take shape by then.

<<<“seek out …”, “behavior patterns”, …hence, free will choices have been made and established.>>>

Question for you to think about. (I assume you are not gay…) Put the religious aspect aside for a moment. Could you ever see yourself being intimate with and marrying a man instead of a woman?? Probably not…And why not? You have free will…Coulnd’t you try it?? No, you couldn’t because that’s not part of your make up…Not part of your nature…Nature is a powerful force. If its not in your nature to do something, (or let’s say if that nature is disordered…) You can’t simply use free will to make those choices.

 

[Journeyer11]

Setter, (con’t)

<<<It did not all start in childhood, as I have pointed out that children are not developmentally capable of homosexual thoughts, feelings and sexual attraction. >>>

Hopefully, my friend, you now see the ignorance behind that statement. I lived through it, and children are developmentally capable of albeit beginning stages of this.

<<>>

I have no homosexual agenda. True, there are many things I am trying to figure out right now. And many things about the gay agenda that I do not agree with and am not part of. I love God, and am trying to make sense of my life and my cross. He is a God of mercy. Remember HE is the judge, not you.

<<<Are you suggesting that an adult with a predominant SSA is less culpable of serious or mortal sin than a adult counterpart with OSA who is likewise participating in pre-marriage sexual activity?>>>

Yes Setter…That is what I am saying, that’s possible (Not a Given) …, here’s why… We all have feelings and passions. Sometimes they overtake us, we must all learn to control them. They make us do things we sometimes wish we didn’t do. The natural course for the OSA person is to fall in love, and get married, and build their families. If an OSA person chooses to have pre-marital sex, they have made a choice through their free will to do so. The Free Will component of mortal sin is present.

SSA people have the same passions, the same need for companionship and love and intimacy. A need to share their life with a partner and feel loved. But there is no marriage for these people is there? What are their options? To live a celibate life… In essense, they are sentenced to be alone. Do you think you could live your life alone and celibate, Setter? Are you married??

But by the same token, if the homosexual person, chooses a life of casual sex, one night stands, then this behavior, I believe has the same culpability as the OSA person who chooses pre-marital sex. That is the same thing. But for the SSA person choosing love and commitment, the sin might very well be lessened. That is all I’m saying.