C
CopticChristian
Guest
Epan,
Do you have any more good news?
You surmise that what you surmise is not happening and surmise that it will not happen. Have you heard of Norman Vincent Peale?
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Do you have any more good news?
You surmise that what you surmise is not happening and surmise that it will not happen. Have you heard of Norman Vincent Peale?
L
LisaA
Guest
Epan I don’t know where you live but FIFTY new priests were ordained here this June. My own Priest, ordained 25 years ago was the ONLY one that year. Yes things fluctuate and some years are better than others. But our Cathedral had to add three extra days to accommodate all of those converting and coming into the Church this Easter. Our church was a new Parish in an over crowded area. When I converted in 05 we had 400 families. We now have over 600 families.
To quote Mark Twain, rumors of the Church’s death are quite overstated.
Lisa
S
Seeker1961
Guest
You might “know” intellectually that your propensity to sin makes you disordered but that is not the same thing as being told over and over and over.
Have you ever heard divorced Catholics called disordered? Catholics who have committed adultery? Catholics who have committed any other sin?? Take a stroll through CAF and see if you find it other than in your own post.
It’s really hard for the majority in any situation to understand what it really feels like on the other side so I was trying to provide some perspective. It’s a feeling. I’m not trying to claim that it’s a fact.
I wish there was a better word that could be used, but this is what the Church has chosen and gay Catholics have to live with it.
E
Elizabeth502
Guest
Well, Seeker, if one is reading Scripture, if one is reading spiritual works (such as lives of the Saints), if one is availing oneself of even some of the spiritual resources in the Church, one is told over and over that one is attracted to the 7 Capital Sins. One is told repeatedly that one has a disordered tendency to sin. One is told over and over that this is a daily fact which pervades all of our lives, and is not something we can wish away. We become less conscious of it at our own peril.
I am sorry that you have chosen to focus on this one word. When I go to Mass, when I do Catholic reading, I don’t hear “over and over” the word “disordered” as it relates to homosexuality. The word is in the Catechism, and the Catechism I don’t read “over and over.” The Catechism is a helpful catalog and reference. It is not a spiritual guide, per se, for any pilgrim of any orientation. We are told to read Scripture as lectio divina, so that we can hear God’s voice speaking to us. God’s voice, in Scripture, is speaking to you and not telling you “over and over” that you are “disordered” as a whole person. It’s telling you that you are one of God’s children.
It’s not fair to put one’s own fixation on a word as something which applies to the whole institutional Church.
No. And I’ve never heard homosexual persons referred to as disordered, by anyone who is speaking authentically, or ditto for these:
Catholics who have committed adultery? Catholics who have committed any other sin??
I don’t feel like doing your research for you. I know that others on CAF have brought up the same concept I have. They and I have been on CAF longer than you, meaning that recent postings will not reveal that to you. More importantly, if CAF posters are misquoting Church doctrine, then that’s their problem, not my problem or your problem. There are posters who have attacked me viciously because I stated in rational tones a disagreement about a strategy against a moral issue (nothing about homosexuality). Not a doctrine. A strategy. They claimed that the Church only approves certain strategies regarding this issue, which is patently false. I was mob attacked for daring to suggest that dialogue with secularists was a possible strategy. I was stunned by the lack of knowledge, openness, and charity on their part, but their error is something they own, not I. Passion does not equal truth.
Then don’t accuse of others of your own feelings, please. It is not constructive.
It is always helpful, whether on a job or IRL, not to risk making enemies out of our allies by our attachments to words.
T
Tigg
Guest
Really? You know nothing about St. Ignatius Loyola, the founder of the Jesuits, and his famous Spiritual Exercises, which is a classic? He was a great spiritual director and often spoke about the need to pray for the grace to know the disorders of our lives. If memory serves me correctly, I believe the word disorder is used in some of the colloquies.
C
CMatt25
Guest
Forgive me everyone for intruding again. I just learned I had a few posts for me and thought I should address one or two and I’ll be gone again.
Tigg, here’s what I saw. It wasn’t the first time though. Awhile ago now even another forum member who actually is a practicing Catholic saw the same thing being done to me on another thread. A poster says to me something to the effect of she doesn’t mean to be offensive or to attack me. And as even the other forum member pointed out, then proceeds to attack me. It doesn’t harm me though any longer and when it’s a particular poster who doesn’t have credibility with me anyway anymore, I read very little if any of what is written. In this case in the very next sentence what I saw was my ability to understand that this thread was not about me called into question. Tigg, of course I read the word “homosexual” and knew it was not about me. I’m sorry but I just didn’t realize it would be such a capital offense to not limit “coming home” to only gays and lesbians since so many straight Catholics don’t for instance participate in the Mass regularly and so forth either. Considering the percentage make-up of the population, the vast number of non practicing Catholics are actually heterosexual I would guess.
But in any case yes I understand what your faith means to you. I am a person of faith too. And thank you for your kind words about being “welcome home”. I agree if at the end when I am on my death bed and if I were to request the Sacrament of Anointing, at that time I would be welcome. But my journey has been long and hard as it is and I’m not sure I want to spend the rest of my life waiting until then to be welcomed as I am. That’s one thing I find appealing from my studies and correspondence in regard to mainline - liberal Christianity. I see more room for many parts of the body. I could go into great detail why I have doubts the welcome mat would be out for me in today’s Catholic Church before the end. But since I’m not homosexual, I won’t.
God bless you on your journey and peace be with you.
C
CMatt25
Guest
Andrew, thank you. I know I’m not alone but it was nice to be reminded.
The last time I attended Mass the seats were not exactly filled to capacity and it had been like that for awhile now except maybe on C&E. Not only at one parish. I’ve attended 4 or 5 or more parishes over the yrs in more than one state. Actually the early Easter vigil I attended this yr was not even filled though. And I agree things have really changed. Abortion and homosexuals and voting against Barack Obama and other Democrats and for Republicans are by far the emphasis now. God bless you along your journey and peace be with you.
C
CMatt25
Guest
Seeker, I have to confess I don’t buy into the idea that it is a disorder to have SS love attraction and orientation that comes as naturally to homosexuals as opposite sex attraction does to heterosexuals who don’t just wake up one day and choose their orientation. But anyway I hope you don’t mind. But before I left I just felt I’d be remiss in my own Christian faith after reading of your hurt, if I did not offer a :hug1:
Peace and God bless.
K
KP3243
Guest
Do you know what the word “Catholic” means? It means “Universal” if we have slow participation in seminarians in the US, the Church isn’t going to shut down, we just bring them in from other countries. My church specifically has had a priest from Slovenia, one from Africa, and our current one is from Ireland. The Church is busting with seminarians in Africa and a US Blogger has just started e-books to Africa so the African seminarians have access to all the great works of the Early Church Fathers, Catholic doctors of the Church all the Papal Encyclicals without having to pay for them in book form. The Church is also having a huge increase in vocations in Korea (which by the way had 2,000,000 conversions in Korea in the past year) and the Vatican is particularly pleased with the dramatic rise of seminarians in Australia which was due to their Bishops and Cardinals in Australia going back to traditional style of priestly formation and religious life in which members live together in community, participate in the daily Eucharist, pray the Divine Office and engage in devotional practices together. They wear a religious habit, work together in common ministires, and are explicit in their fidelity to the Church and the teachings of the Magisterium. All of these characteristics are especially attractive to the young people who are entering seminaries and Religious life today.
S
Seeker1961
Guest
Well, Seeker, if one is reading Scripture, if one is reading spiritual works (such as lives of the Saints), if one is availing oneself of even some of the spiritual resources in the Church, one is told over and over that one is attracted to the 7 Capital Sins. One is told repeatedly that one has a disordered tendency to sin. One is told over and over that this is a daily fact which pervades all of our lives, and is not something we can wish away. We become less conscious of it at our own peril.
I am sorry that you have chosen to focus on this one word. When I go to Mass, when I do Catholic reading, I don’t hear “over and over” the word “disordered” as it relates to homosexuality. The word is in the Catechism, and the Catechism I don’t read “over and over.” The Catechism is a helpful catalog and reference. It is not a spiritual guide, per se, for any pilgrim of any orientation. We are told to read Scripture as lectio divina, so that we can hear God’s voice speaking to us. God’s voice, in Scripture, is speaking to you and not telling you “over and over” that you are “disordered” as a whole person. It’s telling you that you are one of God’s children.
It’s not fair to put one’s own fixation on a word as something which applies to the whole institutional Church.
No. And I’ve never heard homosexual persons referred to as disordered, by anyone who is speaking authentically, or ditto for these:
Catholics who have committed adultery? Catholics who have committed any other sin??
I don’t feel like doing your research for you. I know that others on CAF have brought up the same concept I have. They and I have been on CAF longer than you, meaning that recent postings will not reveal that to you. More importantly, if CAF posters are misquoting Church doctrine, then that’s their problem, not my problem or your problem. There are posters who have attacked me viciously because I stated in rational tones a disagreement about a strategy against a moral issue (nothing about homosexuality). Not a doctrine. A strategy. They claimed that the Church only approves certain strategies regarding this issue, which is patently false. I was mob attacked for daring to suggest that dialogue with secularists was a possible strategy. I was stunned by the lack of knowledge, openness, and charity on their part, but their error is something they own, not I. Passion does not equal truth.
Then don’t accuse of others of your own feelings, please. It is not constructive.
It is always helpful, whether on a job or IRL, not to risk making enemies out of our allies by our attachments to words.
I feel so much more comfortable here now that I’ve been correctly lectured and instructed on how invalid and incorrect my feelings are. Oh, and being reminded of my vast ignorance of St Ignatius as well! I could not have asked for more compassionate responses. It’s no wonder that so many celibate gay Catholics seek this place out for help and support.
T
Tecumseh5
Guest
Hi, I just wanted to make a comment about the topic. Warning- I am not the best writer
A little backround info… I am out of high school, not quite in college yet, but serving missionary work for the Catholic Church in the US. I am a man, and have struggled with same sex attractions since middle school. The past five months have been incredibly eye-opening for my identity as a man/son of God, as well as my dignity. More importantly, I have become aware of how God is so merciful and kind to me for giving me all the crosses in life, for I am able to walk along the narrow path to become the man God intends.
Just a two things that get me fired up:
terming people as “gay” or “homosexual”: the gay lifestyle “escapes” guilt/culpability when this becomes an identity. For example: If it is an identity, then I have no control over my desires and actions that stem from them. Also, for a long time, I could not come to terms with my own desires, because I was afraid that it meant that my identity was “gay”. There are many lies that the world projects. I could not see through them without help.
The Church takes a true, but weak stance. Yes, I have dignity and my same sex attractions are disordered. Those are true. BUT what has been difficult, but freeing to learn is…
I WILL HAVE HEALING AND RESTORATION OF MY SEXUALITY-the catechism term of sexuality, so my manly identity (as the Lord wills my restoration in His timing)
IN MY DISCERNMENT OF VOCATION, MARRIAGE WILL BE AN OPTION- I cannot make a decision about my vocation unless I can make a FREE choice. It will not be a decision made by default (I will not just cross off marriage off of the list)
ALL people are heterosexual, some people struggle with ssa- hopefully, this statement has a clear point
I am definitely home in the Catholic Church. and the devil will have another thing coming, because I realize everything my heart truly longs for comes from God, and I hope I can help destroy the lies invented in the world about human identity and struggles with ssa. This is my imagination, but when you see me on the street corner, you will see me in knights armor with a sword (firmly rooted in God and the identity that He has given me)
A little backround info… I am out of high school, not quite in college yet, but serving missionary work for the Catholic Church in the US. I am a man, and have struggled with same sex attractions since middle school. The past five months have been incredibly eye-opening for my identity as a man/son of God, as well as my dignity. More importantly, I have become aware of how God is so merciful and kind to me for giving me all the crosses in life, for I am able to walk along the narrow path to become the man God intends.
Just a two things that get me fired up:
terming people as “gay” or “homosexual”: the gay lifestyle “escapes” guilt/culpability when this becomes an identity. For example: If it is an identity, then I have no control over my desires and actions that stem from them. Also, for a long time, I could not come to terms with my own desires, because I was afraid that it meant that my identity was “gay”. There are many lies that the world projects. I could not see through them without help.
The Church takes a true, but weak stance. Yes, I have dignity and my same sex attractions are disordered. Those are true. BUT what has been difficult, but freeing to learn is…
I WILL HAVE HEALING AND RESTORATION OF MY SEXUALITY-the catechism term of sexuality, so my manly identity (as the Lord wills my restoration in His timing)
IN MY DISCERNMENT OF VOCATION, MARRIAGE WILL BE AN OPTION- I cannot make a decision about my vocation unless I can make a FREE choice. It will not be a decision made by default (I will not just cross off marriage off of the list)
ALL people are heterosexual, some people struggle with ssa- hopefully, this statement has a clear point
I am definitely home in the Catholic Church. and the devil will have another thing coming, because I realize everything my heart truly longs for comes from God, and I hope I can help destroy the lies invented in the world about human identity and struggles with ssa. This is my imagination, but when you see me on the street corner, you will see me in knights armor with a sword (firmly rooted in God and the identity that He has given me)
E
Elizabeth502
Guest
You weren’t being “lectured,” Seeker, either by me or by Tigg. Nor has anyone “invalidated” your feelings. You were being assured that others, without SSA, are also aware of their personal disorders, as are/were the Saints. You were being assured that it would not be possible for anyone understanding the faith to marginalize other people, had they any honesty whatsoever about their regular attraction to their failings. You were being asked not to invalidate your feelings but to refrain from characterizing the attitudes of strangers whose feelings (about you, about others like you) you have no access to.
I’m sorry that that is not acceptable to you. Apparently it’s still important for you to feel “separate,” or to accuse others of somehow putting you in a separate category. If you want to be put in a separate or special category, that’s your choice, but then take responsibility, please, for insisting that you are “different.” If you feel different, it is not necessarily people on this message board who perceive you as “different” in the way you have described here. (“disordered” as a person. I deny that. Tigg denies that. The entire Roman Catholic Church, as an institution has denied that you are disordered as a person.) Yet you keep on insisting that there is a competing doctrine somewhere that is making you feel separated/inferior in your personhood. Why are you attached to invalid doctrines? Why give them (or the people who hold them) so much illegitimate power?
You reject the sincerity of others, and then accuse them of pushing you away. Whatever. I’m done here. As you see, I am imperfect.
:banghead:
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Tec,
I am one poor soul wasting away in the wilderness with all the others languishing in the difficulties of life…I appreciate your being here.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Liz,
I am different, I am struggling and to be honest there is one place on earth other than my home where I feel welcome and that is in the OHCAC. My parents are dead. My sisters are abroad. My children are grown with the exception of one and knowing I can find solidarity, not necessarily agreement, but something in common with others is in this home. You as a sister, and others while disparate in opinions on occasion is preferred to the alternative of lack of solace in a world that has less understanding than the OHCAC.
We occasionally agree. We occasionally disagree. Families are like that. When we can see the OHCAC as family we win…as imperfect as you I am and less sincere than you that I hope to resovle in time…
C
CrimsonThorn
Guest
CopticChristian, I really just must say that I enjoy reading your threads
S
Seeker1961
Guest
I said in my original post that my feelings were not facts and I never claimed them to be so. I know what the doctrine is intellectually, what I was trying to share was despite all that the word still brought up negative feelings. No matter how many years I have known what the facts are, hearing that word is still awkward for me. That might not be what others find issue with, but it is a hurdle for me.
When people are sharing feelings with you, they aren’t looking for you to lecture them about how wrong they are to have them. People’s feelings aren’t always rational, but that doesn’t mean that they aren’t valid for the person experiencing them.
I keep thinking that there are Catholics here who actually want to help gay people come back to the Church-and that’s why I try and share what it feels like to be a gay Catholic. Since most of you aren’t gay, I thought helping you understand what it’s like could help you to reach out to people in your own lives. I wouldn’t have the first idea what it feels like to be divorced, so I talk to people who have been divorced to see what it feels like to be in that space so I can better help them.
V
VeritasLuxMea
Guest
If I was a homosexual, I would be quitting the Church very quickly!
Thankfully there are some people (few!) like CopticChristian that have a kind heart.
Thankfully there are some people (few!) like CopticChristian that have a kind heart.
D
djames99
Guest
“Homosexuals come home we miss you…but leave the baggage there.”
H
Hadrianus
Guest
Another good thread, thanks CC for starting it. Sadly, individual people will always be “judgmental” and critical. Anyone who has been to mass anywhere, will always encounter a few of these types.
I usually wear a suit to mass, and sometimes get dirty looks from people who have the “who does he think he is for dressing so much more “above” everyone else” attitude. It is the fallen human condition at work.
The Church will always contain the wheat and the chaff until the day of judgement; there is little point in worrying about it. And we go to Mass to worship God, not each other.
I usually wear a suit to mass, and sometimes get dirty looks from people who have the “who does he think he is for dressing so much more “above” everyone else” attitude. It is the fallen human condition at work.
The Church will always contain the wheat and the chaff until the day of judgement; there is little point in worrying about it. And we go to Mass to worship God, not each other.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
DJ,
That is not the most inviting thought I have seen. You realize that when you use the words
but
however
on the other hand
that you negate everything that was said just prior.
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