NOTE TO SELF: Do not post comments in the same manner in which you speak with your mouth. If you would have heard my words with your ears, Seeker, you would have noted the inflection in my voice and known it really was a question. But I do concede I should not have used the word, “nothing.”
Seeker,
Q: What is the very greatest kind of charity?
Tigg,
There was no “lecturing” involved about your feelings. I challenge you to indicate where I disregarded your feelings. But your feelings cannot be unfairly projected onto what others might feel unless their words clearly indicate that they’re judging you or perceive you as a person to be any more “disordered” than they are. And my words clearly refuted that how I feel about homosexuals and their worth as children of God is inferior to the worth of any other person in God’s eyes.
(1) And you don’t “have the first idea” of what’s in other people’s hearts. Just as tired as you are, of not being assumed to be chaste, etc., I am so tired of being required to re-present my Sincerity Credentials at every turn by any homosexual who isn’t convinced to the degree of perfection as to whether they are “really” accepted by Catholics who do understand their faith.
The sentiments in the above post of mine were echoed here ON THIS THREAD, in my wholehearted affirmation of the post below:Brother, I hope you didn’t misunderstand me. I was not putting you into a self-pity category but rather acknowledging that the spiritual journey is often not undertaken by those whose afflictions do not seem (externally, visibly) to “demand” radical transformation. (We are all called to radical transformation, which involves descending into that “hell” which I believe you described well and which is paralleled in anyone who has the courage to face his or her own demons, of which we each have many.) Too few of us engage in that radical transformation.
I did not take your post to be an exaggeration but a forthright and honest narration.
To which I responded:
Returning to the same earlier April 2012 thread I referenced – a portion of my conversation with the poster Mustang1971, which you can also read in its entirety:
Absolutely no apology will be entertainedbecause none is necessary, as nothing offensive was said.
I agree, though, that there are two different strands: one is the subjective experience of suffering, which is impossible to compare with anyone else’s suffering (for all of us, not more so for you): I cannot know who suffers “the same,” “more,” or “less” than I do, because by definition suffering is exclusive to the individual, even supposedly “identical” experiences (death, divorce, addiction to a certain substance). I think that you rightly understand that; I am not confused about that. We may have similarities in our trials and griefs; and in addition, we may be able to empathize with those whose experiences we do not share – depending on our level of sensitivity and compassion. But any comparative “level” of suffering is, as I can see you understand, is a meaningless term between and among individuals.
I do think, though, that something objectively true can be stated, and it is what you state here, which I’ll underline:
In any case, believe what you want to believe. You will anyway.My point exactly.
You’re right, I haven’t been here very long and I don’t know everyone’s posting history. All I knew was that Coptic posted a kind and compassionate thread and I welcomed it. I believed that it was something long overdue where a conversation could be had about how to welcome more gay people and lead more to the Church.
Seeker,
DJames,
So what this sentence tells me is that you are addressing Judgement. I am assuming that you are looking at the possibility that someone was judged and someone judged. You then state that there is a qualifier and interestingly you say that qualifier is a sentencing to qualify. Djames say what?
Well that was obvious to me, anyway.
However,Except that when you have heard them, and heard them repeatedly, and that’s all you hear, then the relationship is not progressing in a constructive way. Treating other people as dumping grounds has its limits in terms of efficacy, and in terms of the willingness of the one hearing the complaints to keep hearing them.
Once. Even a few times. Even many more than a few times. However, complaints have diminishing returns. And they particularly begin to taste bad to the hearer when the source of the complaint is not even close to the hearer’s responsibility.
But if the rant precedes every encounter, and accompanies every invitation, then the ability of mortal men and women to absorb rants after rants – especially about factors or events the listener has no control over – then the quality of the relationship suffers.
I question how well you were reading my two replies to the thread you opened on “Non-Practicing Catholics Coming Home.” You open a lot of threads. There’s nothing wrong in that, but I do sometimes wonder, given the brevity of some of your replies on those thread, how well you read the replies of others. I was very specific in my testimony. That testimony acknowledged that what most prevented my returning earlier were my own barriers to the reception which was already waiting for me in church. There was no lack of welcome. I was just not ready to receive that welcome. I was hung up on my own excuses, my own “baggage,” my own attachments to complaints – regardless of how legitimate many of those complaints might have been. I was hung up on the past, not living in the present.
Liz,Well that was obvious to me, anyway.
Except that when you have heard them, and heard them repeatedly, and that’s all you hear, then the relationship is not progressing in a constructive way. Treating other people as dumping grounds has its limits in terms of efficacy, and in terms of the willingness of the one hearing the complaints to keep hearing them.
Once. Even a few times. Even many more than a few times. However, complaints have diminishing returns. And they particularly begin to taste bad to the hearer when the source of the complaint is not even close to the hearer’s responsibility.
But if the rant precedes every encounter, and accompanies every invitation, then the ability of mortal men and women to absorb rants after rants – especially about factors or events the listener has no control over – then the quality of the relationship suffers.
I have heard several times now that the problem is a single word. And a single word written by people other than myself, over whom I have zero influence – at the time they wrote the word, and in the present tense. And further, it’s a word that even those who wrote the word had no intention of anyone internalizing to equal ‘personhood.’ (And those people were very specific about what personhood was and what personhood was not.) And somehow it’s my responsibility to apologize for an interpretation of the words of others which were never meant in the way they have been received by this person. I’m sorry, but I just don’t take responsibility for that. And for anyone to ask me, or to ask anyone else who has never been a member of the CDF, to take responsibility (listening to rant after rant) violates both justice and charity. More importantly, it doesn’t resolve the problem of the person’s “sense of welcome” if the person is attached to annoyance about an absent person’s words. It’s not rational, Coptic.
I question how well you were reading my two replies to the thread you opened on “Non-Practicing Catholics Coming Home.” You open a lot of threads. There’s nothing wrong in that, but I do sometimes wonder, given the brevity of some of your replies on those thread, how well you read the replies of others. I was very specific in my testimony. That testimony acknowledged that what most prevented my returning earlier were my own barriers to the reception which was already waiting for me in church. There was no lack of welcome. I was just not ready to receive that welcome. I was hung up on my own excuses, my own “baggage,” my own attachments to complaints – regardless of how legitimate many of those complaints might have been. I was hung up on the past, not living in the present.
Grace and welcome are waiting for us when and whenever we want to Come Home and acknowledge our utter dependency on God, instead of shifting responsibilty for our spiritual lives onto the imperfections of human beings (especially the imperfections of others). The only perfect love exists in God Himself. When we are ready to acknowledge that, and be open to anything that might come along, really 100% of the time He comes through, both directly and through other people. Once we ask for the grace to abandon our negative expectations and to receive blessings from others, our eyes become opened in the miraculous way that Jesus opened eyes in performing miracles, and our ears become opened and are willing to hear and touch those blessings {“He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” Mt 11:15) God provides.
That’s just a personal story but I’m sure I’ll get flamed for “lecturing,” because no matter what I say, I clearly can’t win here. And perhaps for that reason I have stopped caring about communicating. I’ve exhausted my efforts.
As I mentioned, I wasn’t complaining about your opening threads. However, given the above, and given the below, and given another thread, are you in competition with me?Liz,
I open a lot of threads. You should open a lot of threads. I cannot tell you why this is so. It is what it is.
(Just FYI: I’m not in competition with you. 
)ps, you have 6421 posts and starting threads gives me the opportunity to catch up
I make no pretensions to being Jesus, despite my clumsy and unsuccesful attempts to model Him now and then.
He is God, Coptic. As God, he has an infinite reserve of tolerance for being dumped on without its affecting His ability & willingness to be gracious. I have not an infinite tolerance, and most people, even very patient people, do not. And very few people are so saintly that they want to take responsibility, time after time, for things other people say (or do).I have absolutely no idea what you mean by that.]Amen, I see the TV preachers all the time…Amen…yeah why not…Amen…
Call me obtuse. I’ve been called much worse on this thread already.Liz,As I mentioned, I wasn’t complaining about your opening threads. However, given the above, and given the below, and given another thread, are you in competition with me?
I make no pretensions to being Jesus, despite my clumsy and unsuccesful attempts to model Him now and then.
Example: Lay complaints about clergy sex abuse. Some people have that On The Brain, as in Water. Present non-abusing clergy have had more than earfuls from laity about this issue, and most of the people they’ve heard from were never abused themselves or had loved ones abused, but were/are merely registering horror. Which is also normal. The horror really happened. The horror was real. Ranting, venting, complaining had its place & to some extent still has its place. “It comes with the territory,” as a priest, to have to be on the receiving end of that – to a limited degree. And then, after awhile (by their admission as well), clergy just get burnt out from hearing about what other people have done. I’ve heard from some who tire of taking responsiblity for the sins & crimes of brother priests whom they have never met and never had responsibility over.
I have absolutely no idea what you mean by that.
I was at the end of my sermon…and all God’s children said…Amen…
St. Paul did not mean we are competing with each other !
Liz,St. Paul did not mean we are competing with each other !
He meant, we compete with ourselves as individuals. ** He was using an athletic metaphor, aptly – both with regard to our own personal spiritual struggles (the discipline & training involved) and against the powers of evil.**
“Trailing?” LOL. OK. I guess I should be flattered.
Absolutely ! Every one of us. St. Paul had no illusions about his own ever-present personal struggles against sin. And he used the model of those personal struggles as something he expected those reading his letters (the communities he addressed) to apply to themselves.Liz,
Then I am sure you would agree that if St. Paul were sitting on Skype with us talking it would be easy for him to say this applied to those with same sex attraction, the homosexual we ask to come home. It applies to all of us does it not?
Amen