Honduras immigrants

[LeafByNiggle]

No, I meant an objectve proof. Not a claim from the organization, “FAIR” whose stated goal is to reduce immigration. It is no surprise that such a group would wildly inflate the cost.

 

[Annie]

A couple of thousand immigrants is not going to adversely affect an affluent nation of 330 million.

A couple thousand here, four thousand there, seven thousand somewhere else, after a while, you end up with 11,000,000 more.

because only a handful will qualify for asylum and the rest will be refused.

And what will happen to them? Will they go back to their country, or disappear into ours?

 

[JW55]

LeafByNiggleRegular

“A couple of thousand immigrants is not going to adversely affect an affluent nation of 330 million. It is like one family in every town of 1000. But it won’t come to that because only a handful will qualify for asylum and the rest will be refused.”

In response, I think it is safe to say that it doesn’t end there with just a couple thousand. If they go across the border unobstructed it is a safe assumption to say there will be many more that follow. That basically is a green light for whoever else wants to come.

Bottom line is that that there is a process in place to enter the country legally. They need to respect the borders of this country and follow the process. If you or I even visit another country, the very least we need is a Passport and in some cases a Visa. I follow that process because that is a legal requirement, and any luggage I have is checked and I have to go through a security check. I abide by this because I am is required. I wouldn’t just demand entry because I want to be there. Even more important with the Hondurans is they are actually plan on living here, not just visiting. That means there will be needs for health care and in all likelihood financial assistance to them. They may pose a danger to US citizens and they need to be vetted.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggleRegular

“A couple of thousand immigrants is not going to adversely affect an affluent nation of 330 million. It is like one family in every town of 1000. But it won’t come to that because only a handful will qualify for asylum and the rest will be refused.”

In response, I think it is safe to say that it doesn’t end there with just a couple thousand. If they go across the border unobstructed it is a safe assumption to say there will be many more that follow.

I didn’t say they should get across unobstructed. I just said if they were to enter in some fashion, it would not be the disaster Trump predicts.

Bottom line is that that there is a process in place to enter the country legally.

That process is inadequate, and Trump is threatening to close it down entirely.

They need to respect the borders of this country and follow the process. If you or I even visit another country, the very least we need is a Passport and in some cases a Visa.

Those are the rules. However, if you or I saw our spouse murdered before our eyes and those murderers were now threatening our child, even you or I might consider breaking those rules rather then watch another loved on murdered.

 

[F_Marturana]

Probably, in the era of Ellis Island a this many entered a day. Often their names were not even spelled correctly on the ship manifestos.

 

[JW55]

I didn’t say they should get across unobstructed. I just said if they were to enter in some fashion, it would not be the disaster Trump predicts.

First off we are trying to prevent a disaster, and we don’t know all the ramifications. They may be even worse than anticipated. One only has to look at what is happening in Europe. Yes, and we have rules in place, and that is what is in place and they are refusing to follow the established process that exists. This shows a disrespect for our country and its laws. Why would a person abide by our laws once you entered the country if it wasn’t a concern to even enter the country to begin with. For myself when on foreign travel I have been pulled out of line many times for “special security checks”, patted down, swabbed, had my belonging gone through. just trying to “legally” get on a plane, and following all the rules, I have come to expect it. I do it because it is required. When I am in another country I try my best to abide by their laws and rules (not just what I deem acceptable) and I try to learn about their customs and enough about their language to communicate. I don’t make the assumption I can just come and go as I see fit and expect them to not scrutinize my entries and departures and what I do while I am there.

That process is inadequate, and Trump is threatening to close it down entirely.

If it is inadequate we need to strengthen it, revise it, add to it, not negate or ignore it which is what many are expecting us to do.

Those are the rules. However, if you or I saw our spouse murdered before our eyes and those murderers were now threatening our child, even you or I might consider breaking those rules rather then watch another loved on murdered.
[/quote/]

Isn’t this partially what we are trying to prevent from happening in our country by having a controlled system of vetting people as opposed to just crashing the border and running into the underbrush and disappearing?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

I didn’t say they should get across unobstructed. I just said if they were to enter in some fashion, it would not be the disaster Trump predicts.

First off we are trying to prevent a disaster, and we don’t know all the ramifications.

The only imminent disaster is the dissolution of any sense of national unity due to growing polarization. A few immigrants is nothing compared to that.

One only has to look at what is happening in Europe.

The places that are having trouble are places where the immigrant population is higher and not invited to share in society.

Yes, and we have rules in place, and that is what is in place and they are refusing to follow the established process that exists. This shows a disrespect for our country and its laws.

…or it shows desperation and not a lack of respect…

Why would a person abide by our laws once you entered the country if it wasn’t a concern to even enter the country to begin with.

Because presumably there would no longer be a desperate reason to disregard them.

For myself when on foreign travel I have been pulled out of line many times for “special security checks”, patted down, swabbed, had my belonging gone through. just trying to “legally” get on a plane, and following all the rules, I have come to expect it. I do it because it is required.

…and because you are not fleeing for your life.

That process is inadequate, and Trump is threatening to close it down entirely.

If it is inadequate we need to strengthen it, revise it, add to it

That’s not what I meant. I meant that it is inadequate because we don’t assign enough immigration judges to hear asylum cases promptly, which leaves long lines camped outside the official ports of entry, sometimes days, weeks, or even months long. Is it any wonder people resort to illegal crossing?

Those are the rules. However, if you or I saw our spouse murdered before our eyes and those murderers were now threatening our child, even you or I might consider breaking those rules rather then watch another loved on murdered.

Isn’t this partially what we are trying to prevent from happening in our country by having a controlled system of vetting people as opposed to just crashing the border and running into the underbrush and disappearing?

The hypothetical danger of the US turning into Honduras is hypothetical, while the situation in Honduras and Guatemala is not hypothetical. It is real. But rather than aid these countries in their fight against gangs, Trump wants to cut off all aid until they “behave.”

 

[JW55]

To respond to your last post to me:
-It won’t just be a few immigrants, it will be many and many more to come. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
-There is polarization in the US. Much of that is with a number of immigrants who do not wish to assimilate or share the values here.

• The same is true in Europe. I am far from a stranger in Europe. Most of the places in Europe that are having trouble are as I have mentioned above. They do not wish to assimilate, they want separation and they have a different set of values. Western Europe is facing serious issues. Many areas are essentially no-go zones for the police.
  -You make an assumption when you say that illegal immigrants would no longer have a reason to disregard our laws since the are no longer desperate. They are here illegally, why would they suddenly have a change of heart and be model citizens? Besides if they enter illegally we don’t even know who they are or what their backgrounds are or why they are if or if they are desperate or not .
  -Regarding your response to me not fleeing for my life: We don’t know why the particular illegal immigrants are entering here since they don’t plan on being checked or identified so we don’t know all their motives.
  -In regard to Trump cutting off aid to these other countries. The reason is because they are deliberately ignoring our rights and rules to enter this county. Why would we reward these countries who have no respect for us.
  -I am a firm believer in providing humanitarian aid to needy nations. However, we have to improve the situation there, not bring their problems here. It doesn’t help the economy of Central American nations to send their population here. Conditions have to be improved there. They need to work with other countries that do try to help them build their economy and infrastructure. The US has spent billions to try to do this. There has to be cooperation with these other nations. If you teach them a skill there and develop an industry and market, they will do well there. For those who want to enter this country, follow the rules, do so legally, try to assimilate with the culture and values here, certainly more power to them and one can only wish them well. There are many who have done this and taken the right path and who have been good citizens and Americans. Unfortunately, they are overshadowed by those who use a different method

 

[LeafByNiggle]

To respond to your last post to me:
-It won’t just be a few immigrants, it will be many and many more to come. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

…an iceberg we could help to melt if we turned our attention to the gang violence in our neighboring nations.

-There is polarization in the US. Much of that is with a number of immigrants who do not wish to assimilate or share the values here.

There are not that many immigrants who do not share our values. These Honduran refugees are mostly Christian - Catholic even.

-You make an assumption when you say that illegal immigrants would no longer have a reason to disregard our laws since the are no longer desperate. They are here illegally, why would they suddenly have a change of heart and be model citizens?

What incentive do you or I have to be a model citizen? Let’s not set a standard for immigrants that is higher than we ourselves can pass.

Besides if they enter illegally we don’t even know who they are or what their backgrounds are or why they are if or if they are desperate or not .

…all the more reason to make it unnecessary as well as undesirable for them to enter illegally.

-Regarding your response to me not fleeing for my life: We don’t know why the particular illegal immigrants are entering here since they don’t plan on being checked or identified so we don’t know all their motives.

That’s why we should staff up the immigration judges and give them a prompt hearing.

-In regard to Trump cutting off aid to these other countries. The reason is because they are deliberately ignoring our rights and rules to enter this county. Why would we reward these countries who have no respect for us.

As I said before, they do have respect for us. And in aiding these countries in their fight against gang violence we would be fighting evil instead of ignoring it. And it is good for us because we won’t be faced with so many refugees. Lot’s of reasons to do it. No legitimate reason not to.

-I am a firm believer in providing humanitarian aid to needy nations. However, we have to improve the situation there, not bring their problems here.

Then please tell Donald Trump not to cut off aid. And maybe suggest that the aid be targeted to fighting gang violence, rather than just handing over money.

They need to work with other countries that do try to help them build their economy and infrastructure. The US has spent billions to try to do this. There has to be cooperation with these other nations.

We could identify the elements of Honduras that genuinely want to improve their society and help them.

 

[Feanor2]

What do you think the Bishops and Pope would have to say about a notion of using rubber bullets to meet immigrants?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Yes, especially the Vatican:

Support for Sister Margaret Farley Continues to Flood In - New Ways Ministry

[

Yesterday’s news that the Vatican has censured Just Love: A Framework for Christian Sexual Ethics, the groundbreaking theological work of Sister Margaret Farley, RSM, a retired professor at Yale Divinity School, has evoked numerous responses in support of this theologian.

“Acknowledging that many will be ‘deeply saddened’ by Monday’s announcement of the Vatican’s criticism of Mercy Sr. Margaret Farley, the head of the global Mercy order has asked her sisters for their ‘careful and compassionate accompanying’ of those discouraged by the move.

” ‘I am sure that some of you will be angered and frustrated by this news and I totally understand your feelings and thoughts,’ writes Sr. Patricia McDermott, the president of the Institute of the Sisters of Mercy of the Americas, in a letter addressed to all Mercy sisters and lay associates.

 

[Annie]

Did you mean this to be a new topic?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Did you mean this to be a new topic?

No. I was responding to (name removed by moderator)'s post that Sr. Patricia’s views on immigration would rankle many. I wanted to point out that this sister’s theological views are not entirely consistent with Catholic teaching. As such, @F_Marturana’s post quoting her does not really lend credibility to the idea that faithful Catholic’s should take Sister Patricia’s advice.

 

[Annie]

Didn’t catch that the same Sr. Patricia was involved in both.

 

[F_Marturana]

So a disciplinary action of six years ago of another sister tarnishes the current message on immigration by the Sisters of Mercy? :woman_shrugging:t2:

 

[grotto]

Play acting (even poorly) can cause people to adopt false conclusions. Speech with the use of a dialect, tone, and rhythm create mental paths that can persuade or be unacceptable. IMO people should look for this tactic when listening or reading and the discovery will be an eye-opener! The art of propaganda should be exposed -
the huckster’s cry “Step right up folks; don’t be shy. You will once again have beautiful hair and be the envy of all other bald men! Just a mere two-bits will guarantee your good looks!”

 

[qui_est_ce]

So a disciplinary action of six years ago of another sister tarnishes the current message on immigration by the Sisters of Mercy? :woman_shrugging:t2:

Sr. Patricia fully supported the sister’s stance. She also is a part of New Ways Ministry that supports marriage equality. She does not represent Catholic Teaching.

Marriage equality for lesbian and gay couples is a growing reality in nations around the globe.​

In the debates preceding marriage equality in each nation, Catholic leaders have opposed these initiatives. In many nations, however, Catholic lay people have been strongly supportive of marriage equality, often citing their faith’s tradition of social justice and strong family units as reasons for such support. The accompanying resources can help you understand Catholic support of marriage equality better.

Marriage Equality - New Ways Ministry

 

[Johann_du_Toit]

The Bible tells us to welcome the stranger, but also requires the stranger to respect and obey the laws of his host country. It’s a two way street.

And if a lot of people just show up at your country’s border and demand to be let in, then perhaps it’s not a good idea to give them what they want.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

The Bible tells us to welcome the stranger, but also requires the stranger to respect and obey the laws of his host country. It’s a two way street.

And if a lot of people just show up at your country’s border and demand to be let in, then perhaps it’s not a good idea to give them what they want.

That’s fear mongering. The Honduran immigrants are not demanding anything. They are hoping.

 

[Johann_du_Toit]

Hoping for what? That all the rules and regulations for processing asylum applications and determining if their asylum claims are legitimate (or not) will simply be torn up to accommodate them, and they just be let in, no questions asked?

They could have gone to a US embassy in their country of origin to apply for asylum as far as I am aware.

If I walked to someone’s front door, and DEMANDED to be let into their house, the cops would get called, I would get tasered and carted off to jail.