Honest Apostasy -- Leaving the Church

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You can say they are self-absorbed or that they are honestly confused or that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. I imagine for most people it’s a combination of factors, and different ones for different people. There is no one-size-fits-all reason why people leave, just like there is no one-size-fits-all reason why people stay. Also, people don’t always give totally honest reasons when they tell us. That’s why I think this is all a bit pointless to discuss.
 
One thing I’ve found is that the more I learn here the more confused I’ve become.

I have to remind myself of my core beliefs quite often and do a daily ‘wipe’

The forum is great and can often help consolidate my beliefs, also sometimes it’s genuinly possible to give someone some solace…I think. Sometimes though it’s tempting and easy to just talk yourself down a rabbit hole.
 
I agree. My bosses at work always stressed being concise. And Jesus said things very simply and told us to be like little children. Best to follow the KISS rule.
 
I can’t get to a church where I live now. Back when I could, my shyness and extreme social awkwardness due to Asperger’s Syndrome prevented me from initiating anything. However I did participate in and lead some parish discussion groups and found that most people hated talking about their faith. And these were the few with enough enthusiasm to join the discussion groups. I tried other parishes but they were pretty much the same. Perhaps it had something to do with Catholics being such a minority there; I don’t know. At the time it seemed to me that people either stayed because of a kind of inertia or, if they were young and became enthusiastic about their faith, they usually joined a Protestant church.
 
The Eucharist, and the fact that the Church has had so many other scandals before involving sex, politics, money, etc. yet still kept the Real Presence, is my tap root for the faith.

If they lost the belief in the real presence, or maybe never really had it, then I can see how it would be tough to stay Catholic for a variety of reasons. Without the real presence, and the other sacraments like confession, extreme unction, etc… well, the local mega church is more fun.

If one really believes in the Real Presence as taught by the Church, then everything else falls in line and I don’t see how you can not be Catholic.
 
gracepoole said:
One of the bloggers about which the linked article was written, though, is a woman who’s made a living of writing and speaking about the faith. She … has now explained that she has disavowed herself of the Church. At least for now. Apparently she might be willing to come back if the Church someday meets her requirements. In any case, it seems she was fully catechized through her own intensive efforts.
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And… there’s your problem, right there. “Self-taught”? OK… let’s see how well she’s learned and understood the teachings of the Church…
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gracepoole:
because I’m fairly liberal, it is invariably assumed that lust is among (perhaps foremost among) the sins that have led me down the garden path to hell.
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Nope. Not what the Church teaches.
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gracepoole:
This is the intended “gotcha” moment where the priest accurately scries the secrets of your soul and uncovers the real ulterior motive behind your supposedly intellectual reservations.
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Nope. Not what priests do in sacramental or pastoral moments.
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gracepoole:
Catholics are trained to feel deeply ashamed of this, so when they are accused of their “secret sin” it starts up a cycle of self-doubt
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Nope. Not what the Church teaches, implements, or even recommends.
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gracepoole:
Telling someone that their natural drives are shameful and sinful
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Who does that? That’s not what the Church teaches!

So, here’s my take: she thinks she understands Church teachings, but is seriously misinformed. The Church doesn’t teach “shame” or “manipulation”; it doesn’t set up priests as shadow psychiatrists to delve into your motivations (maybe she’s confusing us with Scientology?).

She’s reached some conclusions based on faulty assumptions. The fact that she’s “made a living of writing and speaking about the faith” doesn’t mean that she’s an expert, and based on what you’ve shared here, it seems clear that she’s anything but an expert on Catholic teaching! (Maybe she’s an expert on contemporary misunderstandings of Church teaching, but not the actual content of Catholic moral theology!)

One last thought: there might be individuals who assert what she says that the Church teaches… but that doesn’t mean that these individuals are accurate in their assertions. “Somebody I met who is Catholic told me X, Y, and Z” isn’t a valid way to understand or critique the faith…
 
Well, of course it seems now that she’s misinformed. She is. My point was that what she wrote and published before was in line with Church teaching and it’s only now that she’s publicly flounced that she’s disparaging the same. So at one point she was well-catechized and now she isn’t?
 
gracepoole said:
So at one point she was well-catechized and now she isn’t?
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No. At one point she may have appeared to have been well-catechized, and now it’s clear she isn’t. 😉

(We could characterize it in other ways that are less charitable, but that wouldn’t be fair, per se.)
 
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There is a prophecy in the NT concerning the tribulations at the End of Days. It is written that: “…false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.” (Matt 24:24) and bear in mind, for nearly 2,000 years these words remain also for our ears: “Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour.” (1John1:18)
 
Eh, okay… I still disagree. People who leave the faith aren’t unanimously poorly catechized. People can understand Church teachings and the whys behind them and still reject them. Pretty sure that’s what happened with Selmys. She isn’t the average lay person. She made a living out of writing and speaking from a position of being well-catechized. And now she’s rejecting doctrine nonetheless.
 
gracepoole said:
Eh, okay… I still disagree. People who leave the faith aren’t unanimously poorly catechized.
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Right. Not all.

However, often – to my experience – that seems to be the case. Not always. Just commonly the dynamic that’s in play.
gracepoole said:
She made a living out of writing and speaking from a position of being well-catechized. And now she’s rejecting doctrine nonetheless.
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Well, but… what she’s rejecting isn’t Catholic doctrine! It’s an idea she’s formed in her mind, based on a misreading of Catholic doctrine!
 
Yes, no one knows when the end will be; however, we are living in the “end times” or “last days” as all generations have since the apostles. 2,000 years now.
 
13pollitos said:
Yes, no one knows when the end will be; however, we are living in the “end times” or “last days” as all generations have since the apostles. 2,000 years now.
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My former Bible study teacher, who is a retired theologian explained it sort of like this (it’s been years since we went over this): Time is divided into three parts, the beginning of time until the birth of Jesus; the time when Jesus was born, until His Crucifixion and Ascension; then the “last days” from Pentecost until wheneverJesus returns and it’s the end of the world , but that no one knows when that will be except God.
 
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Gorgias said:
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gracepoole:
Eh, okay… I still disagree. People who leave the faith aren’t unanimously poorly catechized.
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Right. Not all.

However, often – to my experience – that seems to be the case. Not always. Just commonly the dynamic that’s in play.
gracepoole said:
She made a living out of writing and speaking from a position of being well-catechized. And now she’s rejecting doctrine nonetheless.
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Well, but… what she’s rejecting isn’t Catholic doctrine! It’s an idea she’s formed in her mind, based on a misreading of Catholic doctrine!
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Have you read any of her books?
 
Well the Catholic Church does make very bold claims about itself and the sacraments . If it is truly the church Christ established and we truly have the correct version of the bible and the real presence in the Eucharist…shouldnt we be a lot lot better ?

I mean we are saying that God himself favors this church . And yet those in teaching and pastoral authority commit grave and horrendoys crimes and only step down once caught by secular authorities .

On top of that…they hold meaningless. Synods and talk about being more inclusive in order to 'reach more people ’ instead of facing the elephant in the room.

Who wouldn’t be discouraged ?( especially those who care )
 
JSAD said:
we truly have the correct version of the bible and the real presence in the Eucharist…shouldnt we be a lot lot better ?
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That’s because people misuse those resources and render them ineffective.
 
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