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japhy
Guest
Oh no! You let the secret out! All this talk of Latin, chant, and tradition is a “greate ruse”! Any second now, the black Vatican helicopters will swoop down to crush the rebels…
- Status
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ethelzguy
Guest
The Pope AGREES with us!!
What a silly and childish comment. As if the Holy Father has nothing better to do that “choose sides” between factions within the Church. “pick me, pick me…”
Stop bashing our legs out from under as as we struggle for what you have been blessed with!
I shared the experience of our last Saturday nights’ Vigil Mass, and guess what…it got criticized…I know I am blessed, but obviously some here still felt the need to criticize it.
The mass is a prayer, not a performance.
Silly me, all these years, I thought the Mass was a “Holy Sacrifice”.
Too many people at the OF just want to be entertained!
Yah, that’s it, we go to Mass because we’re bored with the movies.
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eelpis
Guest
I wonder why so many are prejudiced against the EF? The sacrament and the sacrifice is the same. Only the ceremonies are different.
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eelpis
Guest
I wonder why so many are prejudiced against the EF? The sacrament and the sacrifice is the same. Only the ceremonies are different.
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eelpis
Guest
I wonder why so many are prejudiced against the EF? The sacrament and the sacrifice is the same. Only the ceremonies are different.
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Aramis
Guest
True, except when blessing the people, or the deacon is reciting the litanies from the doors. And some concelebrations, where the priests literally wind up surrounding the Holy Table.
Even in the most Latinized uses, the Byzantine celebrant spends most of the DL facing east. The rest of the time he’s listening to the reading(s) or giving the blessings.
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eelpis
Guest
In the liturgy of St John Chrysostom the priest is most of the time behind the iconostasis and many times he’s using a foreign language, koine greek of church salvonic. And by the way even if no one can see him he still has his back to the congregation. That the prayer of the the DL or the OF are more beautiful is NOT TRUE, that they seem so to you is your opinion.
The other day my only opportunity to fulfill my Sunday obligation was to attend the OF i Polish. I didn’t understand a word. If the mass was in Latin I would have been able to understand the parts and responses of the mass now I didn’t understand one bit. I wonder if the vernacular mass is such a unifying thing after all.
Another tower of Babylon.
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Cranch
Guest
Don’t want to confuse our “whore of Babylon” friends.
P.S. I agree with your point regarding vernacular versus Latin. I said something similar here a while back. 
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belgianwaffles9
Guest
Har har… you’re just oh so clever.
Wow… I can’t think of a better way to misunderstand and take out of context what i actually said. The Pope agrees with us, us being those who want to see more Latin and gregorian chant, kneeling at communion, communion on the tongue, traditional vestments, etc, in the Novus Ordo. You’re the one acting like theres “sides” at war here, insetad of all Catholics coming together to do what is best for the Church. Which we believe is tradition, because it has sustained us thus far. Your language is divisive.
Well, if they saw something wrong with it, they have every right, per Church law, to voice their concerns so long as they do it in a kind and respectful manner. Neither I nor you should fault them with trying to preserve the integrity of something they obviously repsect, love, and care very deeply for. Hopefully they went about it with the proper attitude of graciousness and humility.
Oh, ha ha ha, your clever wordplay is so funny! Garsh!
It’s both. You’re creating a flase dichotomy. Did you not notice that the holy sacrifice, which is above and beyond time, is made present through a prayer?
Wow… I get criticized for “targeting the analogy, not the argument,” and then you turn around and use sarcarsm to deflect an argument not a day later.
You cannot deny that there are many people who show up at mass and feel that they should somehow be entertained by it. That it should be “relevant” to them, that they should be able to see the priest and what is going on, that they should get to hear music they like. They don’t care one way or the other what God wants, or what glorifies God!
Too many people think mass is all about them, that it is just a performance for the people. That was never the mindset in the TLM. Look at what you see at too many NO services: Pop music choir/bands, arranged right up near the altar, applause after the music and the sermons, elements like dance, puppetry… All of those things turn mass into a “show” for and about the people, rather than a sacrifice to God. Smarter people than I have commented on this.
At the TLM, the choir is out of the way and there is no clapping, because people understand that they are not performing for an audience, they are worshipping for the glory of God. No one cares about the priests personality or his charisma or style, because it doesn’t matter. Only God matters. The Novus Ordo has certain weaknesses which make it far too easy to be turned into a performance. Benedict XVI is correcting that.
Thanks God almighty there are a select few who approach the Novus Ordo that way. I sincerely believe you are one of them. You are obviously a man of great faith. But not everyone is like you. So don’t dismiss my arguments about the large majority of NO attendees, just because it isnt about you personally.
EXACTLY! Because of this vernacular thing, we have parishes-withon parishes set up! Seperate masses and priests for the english, the spanish, the Filipino, etc. My Parish at college has about 5 different language communities, and they almost never interact!
If we used Latin, we would be ONE community; ONE family:one universal, CATHOLIC church!
The vernacular is divisive! Latin is unifying!
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japhy
Guest
Oh, c’mon, it was funny!
“Both-and”. It’s the Catholic Church’s strong point.
I agree entirely. It’s a shame when a parish has separate Masses for separate ethnic groups. It’s kind of ironic that the Catholic Church is so segregated by nationality in that way. A Latin Mass would give everybody a chance to come together and share in the language of the Church.
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LilyM
Guest
Rot - the choir may be out of the way but their music every bit as rehearsed as any classical concert, and their performance as minutely dissected as well. NO music, more often being done by enthusiastic amateurs, speaks more to me of being done purely for the glory of God rather than as an end in itself.
Likewise the priest’s vestments and the vessels and decoration of the Church (“oh it looked wonderful! just heavenly!” - in the same way as people might comment on the theatre sets of ‘A Midsummer Night’s Dream’ or something) no to mention the homily/sermon and the gestures of the priest (similar to how any actor’s performance might be scrutinised, of course).
Don’t tell me the TLM can’t be and isn’t treated as a performance too. But, you’d say, the difference is the TLM is done all for the glory of God. What makes you think the NO is no less done with the intent, sometimes realised successfully, sometimes not, of glorifying God? Of lifting the peoples’ minds and hearts to Him, in a way that works for some of them where the TLM simply doesn’t?
Unifying in that 99% of the population are united in common ignorance of it, for sure. How helpful that makes it in liturgical terms I’m not so sure.
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belgianwaffles9
Guest
I think, for many (thats for many, not for all),*** its the mindset that is different. For starters, the mindset is different from the very beginning because the Tridentine mass is so rare: few priests know how to celebrate it, few choirs know the chants well, few people even know the mass exists! So from the very beginng, anybody, priest or layman, who is involved in the Tridentine Mass is doing so out of a sincere, dovout belief that it is a more suitable way of worshipping God. The immense difficulties that many, many traditional Catholics face guarantees that anyone who perseveres through them really believes in that they’re doing.
Because of that, i think they see the things you listed differently. Its not what the end result is, its WHY it is that way. They wear those vestments, sing those songs, and use those vessels because they want to offer their best and most beautiful to God, to give it everything they have, to show that He is deserving of all glory, honor, and praise.
That isnt to say that there aren’t people who approach the Novus Ordo that way; of course there are!! Just look around these boards! How could anybody not believe there are faithful and true Catholics who look for reverence in the Novus Ordo? But because of the reasons I already gave, theres also a huge crowd of people who attend the Novus Ordo because its just the easy thing to do; they don’t think about the theological issues; many don’t understand Catholic dogmas and traditions, and don’t really know too much about what’s going on. They are well intentioned, certainly, but maybe lacking in some understanding. There are various reasons for this, and it is often the fault of a poor catechist as much as or maybe more than their own lack of interest.
So, looking at the numbers, i think, by percentage, there is more reverence, awe, wonder, and genuine, Catholic worship going on at a mass in the Extraordinary form than there is in the ordinary form.
A pretty large percentage of Catholics are also united in their ignorance of the True Presence, the Immaculate Conception, how popes are elected, who their bishop is, what a priest’s vestments are called, what liturgical colors are, what parts of a mass are used, etc etc… Their ignorance of Latin, like all of those, is something that, hopefully, will change, because it is part of Catholic identity and history.
Besides, as many have already pointed out, it is not dificult at all for the laity to follow along with the mass in a daily missal. And, hopefully, priests and other educators will rise up and do an amazing job of catechizing both inside and outside of mass. Latin was used for nearly 1,900 years and somehow people manages to understand what was going on. Because they were educated.
People are NOT too stupid to learn what is going on, even in Latin! English speakers might have a harder time than speakers of romance languages, but so many of our words are Latin borrowings that its really not hard to learn what a few prayers mean. It wouldn’t hurt if we still taught our children Latin. The public high school i attended offered 5 levels of Latin, including 2 AP (advanced placement) courses. Those kids, many of them my friends, seemed to catch on fine.
** haha, ten points to anybody who gets the liturgical reference, not intended as a pun.
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LilyM
Guest
Wish it was 10 bucks
Allow this uncatechised NO to fess up that she IS aware of the ‘pro multis’ debate. And it wouldn’t be a bad idea at all to bring ‘for many’ back into the English liturgy.- Status