honor of women in islam

[Sister_Amy]

The verse below was meant to defend Aisha against the charges of adultery:

24:4. And those who accuse honourable women but bring not four witnesses, scourge them (with) eighty stripes and never (afterward) accept their testimony - They indeed are evil-doers.

I do not believe that the verse above and verse 11 (which you claim to directly address Aisha’s being slandered by some Muslims) occur in the same surah coincidentally!

Neither do I think it’s “coincidental” but that doesn’t mean you can just make up reasons.

… and you have proof that Mohammad stopped approaching Aisha with doubt after the so-called revelation?

Actually, Islamic history recounts how Mohammad started to cast losts after the incident of "slander"so as to decide which of the wives would accompany him during his military campaigns.

Actually, it was Aisha from whom you get that “Islamic history” and she describes how it was the practice of Muhammad (s) to cast lots BEFORE the incident of slander.

 

[Sister_Amy]

how does penalizing a rape victim keep someone in power?

In rape, there is an oppressor (the rapist) and a victim who is oppressed (the woman who is raped.) Punishing the victim, or the oppressed person, is just characteristic of a society where a corrupt government is trying to maintain control. It is oppressing the people, and if the people call for justice, demand justice, then it would shake their grip of power.

That’s not really an answer to your question, I just think it’s interesting psychologically.

But it’s typical in corrupt societies for women to be oppressed–and a rape victim being punished is an example of women being oppressed. It’s easy for women to be oppressed, unfortunately, and doing so strangles the civilizing factors in society.

 

[Angelos]

Neither do I think it’s “coincidental” but that doesn’t mean you can just make up reasons.

I am not making up my own reasons, but only reading the specific Koran Surah in its entirety. The fact that the surah in question first refers to the newly imposed measures taken against people “accusing women of honour of committing adultery”, and then thematically combines it with the specific accusation of Aisha by some people “concocting lies” apparently answers the question what supposedly instigated Allah to punish people slandering chaste women.

Actually, it was Aisha from whom you get that “Islamic history” and she describes how it was the practice of Muhammad (s) to cast lots BEFORE the incident of slander.

What did Mohammad do AFTER the incident of slander then? Locked up Aisha in her house? Did he quit taking any of his wives with him while leading a military campaign? The Islamic history I study is probably not the same as the one you have been taught.

 

[Delta2]

Islam gives all the liberty to women, even to pee in the streets

Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 4, Number 149:
Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet said to his wives, "You are allowed to go out to answer the call of nature. "

But never face your private parts to sacred places

Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 4, Number 146:
Narrated Abu Aiyub Al-Ansari:
Allah’s Apostle said, “If anyone of you goes to an open space for answering the call of nature he should neither face nor turn his back towards the Qibla; he should either face the east or the west.”

 

[swariffin]

Islam gives all the liberty to women, even to pee in the streets

Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 4, Number 149:
Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet said to his wives, "You are allowed to go out to answer the call of nature. "

But never face your private parts to sacred places

Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 4, Number 146:
Narrated Abu Aiyub Al-Ansari:
Allah’s Apostle said, “If anyone of you goes to an open space for answering the call of nature he should neither face nor turn his back towards the Qibla; he should either face the east or the west.”

Dear Delta2,

How do the Indonesian Muslim answering the call of nature. We are in the eastern side of Qibla, and the Bukhari mentioned as you quoted “he should either face the east of west”. Since we are in the east, and when we face west when answering the call of nature, we are in violation of this rule, however, Bukhari said that we should either face east of west." Bukhari must not realize that there are other region of the world.

 

[Delta2]

Dear Delta2,

How do the Indonesian Muslim answering the call of nature. We are in the eastern side of Qibla, and the Bukhari mentioned as you quoted “he should either face the east of west”. Since we are in the east, and when we face west when answering the call of nature, we are in violation of this rule, however, Bukhari said that we should either face east of west." Bukhari must not realize that there are other region of the world.

Well, yeah, for Allah you must be ashame of your private parts

For Christians that’s not a problem, since God is everywhere then he sees us naked all time, and was God who invented procreation, i.e., sex…sex is only evil when it is bad used, if used as God created it, then it is something good, it makes all living beings all different …a multitude of colors, shapes, and all the beauties multitudes that you see in nature

That’s a statement from the Evil, where the Hell is just darkness, and shade, without any color or beauty, or difference

You don’t need to be ashamed of your body with Jesus, since He created it as it is

What I don’t realize is why there is western people who believes in this stupidities, as for people of the middle-east I understand because they are in danger if they profess to be a Christian

God Bless you

 

[inJESUS]

No i guess it runs as follows : wherever you are, check where the Qibla direction is and pray toward it or do not do this or that toward it…

dunno what theological implications this has or how does it help the person be better, but that’s what they believe in.

 

[Booklover]

And I guess the reason I overreacted again today is quite simple: I hadn’t read your post of yesterday at 12:33 p.m. on the other thread: "Don’t you see the irony of this (…) " I hope this explains a bit.
Also, I live in Eastern Canada, not in the Prairies or in B.C.: for instance, right now it’s 2:05 p.m., so… no, it’s not in Ontario nor in Quebec (although i was born there, a few miles east of Montreal actually), it’s an hour later from those provinces. So I think it’s 5 hours later than Pacific time…
So, Booklover, I certainly wish to see you in a better light some day, God willing… ( Why would he not will it, really? )

Since your perception of me seems to be based on my opinions about Islam and Muslims, I doubt if you will, but that’s okay, I don’t mind!

Vickie

 

[Lapell]

Since your perception of me seems to be based on my opinions about Islam, I doubt if you will, but that’s okay, I don’t mind!

Vickie

You seem to believe people always remain the same and will never change… why did the prophets call the Sons of Israel to reject their wrong ways and come back to the Lord? And why did Jesus do the same?
And I will say something else to you in a PM… Stay tuned!

 

[Sister_Amy]

Dear Delta2,

How do the Indonesian Muslim answering the call of nature. We are in the eastern side of Qibla, and the Bukhari mentioned as you quoted “he should either face the east of west”. Since we are in the east, and when we face west when answering the call of nature, we are in violation of this rule, however, Bukhari said that we should either face east of west." Bukhari must not realize that there are other region of the world.

These aren’t the words of Bukhari, but of the Propeht. The concept of not facing Qiblah is the relevant one. But since people now use bathrooms and stalls, it is not equally applicable anyways. The point is not to face the Qiblah, rather than east/west. So if east/west is Qiblah… simple enough for children to understand.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Well, yeah, for Allah you must be ashame of your private parts

For Christians that’s not a problem, since God is everywhere then he sees us naked all time, and was God who invented procreation, i.e., sex…sex is only evil when it is bad used, if used as God created it, then it is something good, it makes all living beings all different …a multitude of colors, shapes, and all the beauties multitudes that you see in nature

That’s a statement from the Evil, where the Hell is just darkness, and shade, without any color or beauty, or difference

You don’t need to be ashamed of your body with Jesus, since He created it as it is

What I don’t realize is why there is western people who believes in this stupidities, as for people of the middle-east I understand because they are in danger if they profess to be a Christian

God Bless you

Why do you think Muslims are ashamed of their bodies? They are not. They are aware that God is All-Seeing and All Aware (though Muslims do not belive that “God is everywhere” as Christians do…). Facing other than the Qiblah to urinate or defecate has nothing to do with hiding. The reason the concept seems so stupid to you is because you made it up.

 

[swariffin]

These aren’t the words of Bukhari, but of the Propeht. The concept of not facing Qiblah is the relevant one. But since people now use bathrooms and stalls, it is not equally applicable anyways. The point is not to face the Qiblah, rather than east/west. So if east/west is Qiblah… simple enough for children to understand.

Dear Sister,

I am sure your children knows it. But what about a loyalist of the Prophets word who take the word literally? It is either you should have an explanation in hadits (perhaps), or stop to the point of not facing the Qibla. No need to mentioned east or west. You know deleting a single word of the Prophet’s word could means war. But taking the word too literally yield this kind of confusion. If I live in the east and the Qibla in the west, by facing the east while I am answering the call of nature, I will eventually will face Qibla by going around the earth, right? Your prophet is true if he believed that the earth it flat.

What about us living in the eastern part of the world while Qibla is in the west. Since the world is round, if I live in the east and face east, my direction will get me to Qibla too, by going around the earth, right?

That is why sister, I know what the true meaning of your Prophet is teaching. I don’t have any problem with that. It is good to show respect to God by not facing Qibla while answering the call of nature. But, taking the Quran too literally, as well as reading any holybook too literally, will take you away from the intented meaning of what the real message really is. I am not making fun of what was said by your Prophet, but just pointing a simple example of the difficulty of taking the wording of a holybook too literally.

 

[inJESUS]

Why do you think Muslims are ashamed of their bodies? They are not. They are aware that God is All-Seeing and All Aware (though Muslims do not belive that “God is everywhere” as Christians do…). Facing other than the Qiblah to urinate or defecate has nothing to do with hiding. The reason the concept seems so stupid to you is because you made it up.

when they turn their face to Qibla, isn’t their back toward Jerusalem at times, which happened to be the first Qibla of the Muslims? sorry but i just don’t get the depth of it.

 

[ToddM]

Freedom in Islam. What is the final word, according to Islam, about someone who chooses to leave Islam?

If one is in an Islamic country, and one is of another faith group, what , according to Islam, are their options?

According to the Koran, and the accepted Hadiths, do Muslim women have the right to refuse sexual congress with their husbands?

If so, exactly under what circumstances?

How many times did the ‘Blind Sheik’ avoid prosecution in a Muslim court? How?

 

[R_not]

I know not all Moslem men disrespect women and treat them badly… but I got a pretty depressive picture of the situation.

Within 10 days in my very little country (Denmark) we have had 3 rapes… all comitted by Arabian/ Moslem men… two of them took place on the open street… obviously these men thought they were animals… and as consequence they attacked Danish women and raped them. Then another took place here almost in my own back yard where an extremely violent case of rape took place yesterday morning… out in the open by an arabic man who, 40 minutes prior to that, had attemted to rape another Danish woman. I hope they find him and cut of his ****.
Then I just read that another Danish woman was raped yesterday by 2 men in Tyrkey when she was there on vacation… there is something with group rape in this arabian culture… we have seen it several times in Denmark too

Again the Danish people does not have past of being discriminating or racist… on the contrary we are a peaceloving free spirited people… but the Moslem immigrants have done EVERYTHING possible to spit our country in the face by their behaviour… still they victimise themselves even though they are the ones who fill up our prisons and make our streets unsafe, attack our Jews and preach against democracy.

Can you explain the rape thing to me Amy? See its not only Danish women that suffer molestation by Moslem men… also quite alot of Moslem ladies have been killed here in the name of your god… and I dont come up with that but use the words that they said themselves. Obviously their religion has taught them they are beasts…

I have not always been so critical towards your religion but everything I have seen read and heard the last 15 years has just given me and my society an extreme awakening.

Can you understand that we have a problem with Moslem behaviour? Do you recognize and acknowlege this problem ?

So Amy… I hope you come to know Christ as your Lord. He loves women enought to die for them and say that a man must love his wife the same way… indeed he must protect every woman and child against attacks.

The thing with islam is that it teaches it is ok to do such things to infidels. Well, they do that to their own too - and like we already discussed - if the women doesn’t have 4 witnesses then… she is a dead woman walking.

And sister amy is very ignorant of what islam is all about, it seems. And she doesn’t pay attention to the news of what they do around this globe. The rapes, and other violence, in eruope have increased against non-muslims has increased dramatically. And of course, muslims wail that they are the victims whenever the non-muslims get aggravated and want to do something - then there is a lull for a while then… after a time… more violence and more rapes.

It is the cycle of a slow progression of a muslim buildup of their own in numbers and once they are built up sufficiently then the violence will start as it is in other areas such as Africa, Eastern Europe, the middle east, etc.

article on % of muslim and % of violence:
frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=4DE15EF9-A76C-4DD4-81E2-75683AEED74D

 

[R_not]

In rape, there is an oppressor (the rapist) and a victim who is oppressed (the woman who is raped.) Punishing the victim, or the oppressed person, is just characteristic of a society where a corrupt government is trying to maintain control. It is oppressing the people, and if the people call for justice, demand justice, then it would shake their grip of power.

That’s not really an answer to your question, I just think it’s interesting psychologically.

But it’s typical in corrupt societies for women to be oppressed–and a rape victim being punished is an example of women being oppressed. It’s easy for women to be oppressed, unfortunately, and doing so strangles the civilizing factors in society.

hhhmmm, talk about a corrupt society - how about a corrupt religion? Since even clerics say it is ok to rape women and since anything goes if the woman is an infidel.

Here are some stories of islam’s jihad of rape:
refugeesinternational.org/content/article/detail/3215

jihadwatch.org/archives/007771.php

jihadwatch.org/archives/018940.php

The stories abound of muslims and their jihad of rape against women. As for them raping muslim women - anyone who says they do not is being either ignorant of what happens in islam.
omdurman.org/sharia.html This website has many links for stories on this subject.

It is very disingenuous to not acknowledge the amount of violence in islam.

 

[R_not]

Here is an article on frontpagemag.com from an ex muslim and she talks about sharia law and divorce.

frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=64B124DD-4C35-46F6-A1FF-74035177CE4B

She was a Californian who moved to Kuwait. She talks of her experiences with polygamy also, and the lack of rights. Take note of the divorce settlement too.

Polygamy is also brought out in a book written by Nonie darwash, and Egyptian ex-muslim, who not only gives insight into polygamy but also other muslim nuances - ‘Now they Call Me Infidel’. She also wrote, Why I Renounced Jihad for America, and Israel and the War on Terror.

 

[ralphinal]

So if I am camping or fishing, I would have to worry about where the Qibla is? Or does that only apply to women? If so, why is a naked woman offensive and a man is not? What if you are on the boat and the wind turns it the wrong way?

 

[R_not]

So if I am camping or fishing, I would have to worry about where the Qibla is? Or does that only apply to women? If so, why is a naked woman offensive and a man is not? What if you are on the boat and the wind turns it the wrong way?

The Qibla thing - well, that is the least of their pagan rites that indicates there is no tie to Christianity or Judaism. there are many more.

And as for naked women - or just being a woman in islam - it is a curse. I suggest reading the koran and hadiths and learning about mohammed. There is a clear indication of mohammed’s hatred of women - the other half of the human race is hated. Oh, they might say that is not true but if you read their laws, books and history - yes, they hate women.

And if you took away the muslim oil in the middle east - you would get a bunch of backward countries that their only export are jihadists. I wonder what it would be like there if they had given women more freedom? Maybe a better way of life.

But, it isn’t all the women who make a society better - it is their own men. There is no freedom in islam - islam is just as hateful to its own men as it is to its women. What society is just a-ok with training 6-10 year olds as jihadists.

here is one about a 12 year old jihadist
youtube.com/watch?v=annX61fGYeU&feature=related

 

[coleta]

Unfortunately, you have a very narrow view of the Muslim religion. Just because certain people that practice Islam exhibit immoral behavior does not mean that all who follow the religion do. After all, not all Catholics molest children, not all Mormons are polygamists, and not all Muslims become terrorists. A very small group does not represent the religion as a whole.

Also, Muslims do not hate women. The treatment of women varies country to country. Women in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan live different lives than women in the Islamic republic of Afghanistan, or … Saudi Arabia. In Pakistan, an Islamic nation, a Muslim woman was elected as prime minister. Yet in the United States, the"free world", we have not yet had the pleasure of having a non-white male as president. Isn’t that ironic?

Not all Muslims are the same so what an outsiders might view as ‘restrictions’ differ between not only the sects of Islam, but also between the nationality of the individual. Some people take pride in their values and traditions.
Tradition is not equivalent to hate.