honor of women in islam

[inJESUS]

I am not surprised. To me, it is a no win situation. You grant people total freedom, they want opression,. You ooppress them, they want to be free.

oppression is a no no…and freedom is responsibility, otherwise it becomes a prison.

Know the Truth, it shall set you free

 

[ToddM]

If anyone here is actually interested in what a MUSLIM WOMAN has to say about WOMEN in ISLAM, feel free to ask me, I’m happy to oblige.

It is impossible to convince me that you, non-Muslim men, would know more about Muslim women than myself–a Muslim woman. You shouldn’t believe it either.

Why now, and not before? Gotta clarify the ‘Islam’ bit before the rest.

I looked for Muslim apologists on the web, and all the ‘experts’ I found were…there.

The only rational ones that I located where renegades. Mostly converts. Didn’t have a whole lot of good things to say.

The one common element is that they all say, that people who don’t know their own faith will say, things like what you say.

They also say the biggest victims, are the sincere, devout, non-terrorist, want what any decent human being wants…Muslims.

Tired. Mark Gabriel, thats all I can remember right now. Keep thinking I’m done with this. Keeps going in circles, always sounds the same. Always starts out nice.

Then the nice peaceful dude/chick/whoever blows himself and God knows who else to bits.

Sorry if this is yet another half- hearted attempt to be fair and hear someone out but I’ve been here so many times before.

Once bitten, twice shy. Twice bitten, lucky to get a third. Thrice bitten and you’re about as sharp as cool whip.

I don’t want to lose good will. I want to believe nice, genuine, sincere people are.

It is getting to be just about impossible.

I’m sorry Amy. I for one have heard it all before and I just don’t buy
it.

The video was nice. Useful would be better. Does Islam have a Ravi Zacharias, a Scott Hahn, a Father Corapi?

Does Islam have a magisterium? Is there any authority?

Ex Cathedra? Apostles?

I’d hate to think I am wronging a decent human being, or a faith that isn’t actually a mandate to dominate the world.

It is so very hard not to anymore.

I used to have a lot of Muslim friends, but they weren’t really Muslim, it was more a cultural thing and a container for something
else.

The really sick thing is, I respect the people who pursue Jihad. They go down blazing, their assurance of paradise. That is commitment, and faith.

Faith in something wrong, but faith nonetheless, that, and I believe they are pursuing their faith. The good Muslims are the bad guys.

Dirt nap them in a heartbeat though. ‘Irreconcilable differences’

Sick, true, but sick.

And no amount of nice talk and protest is going to change that.

An individual cannot talk his way out of something they acted their way into. Why should a society or a culture be any different.

If you are a good Muslim and a good person, I’m sorry.

 

[ToddM]

Why now, and not before? Gotta clarify the ‘Islam’ bit before the rest.

I looked for Muslim apologists on the web, and all the ‘experts’ I found were…there.

The only rational ones that I located where renegades. Mostly converts. Didn’t have a whole lot of good things to say.

The one common element is that they all say, that people who don’t know their own faith will say, things like what you say.

They also say the biggest victims, are the sincere, devout, non-terrorist, want what any decent human being wants…Muslims.

Tired. Mark Gabriel, thats all I can remember right now. Keep thinking I’m done with this. Keeps going in circles, always sounds the same. Always starts out nice.

Then the nice peaceful dude/chick/whoever blows himself and God knows who else to bits.

Sorry if this is yet another half- hearted attempt to be fair and hear someone out but I’ve been here so many times before.

Once bitten, twice shy. Twice bitten, lucky to get a third. Thrice bitten and you’re about as sharp as cool whip.

I don’t want to lose good will. I want to believe nice, genuine, sincere people are.

It is getting to be just about impossible.

I’m sorry Amy. I for one have heard it all before and I just don’t buy
it.

The video was nice. Useful would be better. Does Islam have a Ravi Zacharias, a Scott Hahn, a Father Corapi?

Does Islam have a magisterium? Is there any authority?

Ex Cathedra? Apostles?

I’d hate to think I am wronging a decent human being, or a faith that isn’t actually a mandate to dominate the world.

It is so very hard not to anymore.

I used to have a lot of Muslim friends, but they weren’t really Muslim, it was more a cultural thing and a container for something
else.

The really sick thing is, I respect the people who pursue Jihad. They go down blazing, their assurance of paradise. That is commitment, and faith.

Faith in something wrong, but faith nonetheless, that, and I believe they are pursuing their faith. The good Muslims are the bad guys.

Dirt nap them in a heartbeat though. ‘Irreconcilable differences’

Sick, true, but sick.

And no amount of nice talk and protest is going to change that.

An individual cannot talk his way out of something they acted their way into. Why should a society or a culture be any different.

If you are a good Muslim and a good person, I’m sorry.

God does work in mysterious ways. Before coming (back?) to The
Church, a Muslim Teacher (requested) that we not believe Jesus died on the cross, and came back.

I looked into it…here I am.

 

[R_not]

• no one is supposed to leave islam - on fear of death, or jail (go figure, they get jailtime for that but not torturing and/or killing infidels - or women, if it is an ‘honor killing’).
• ‘honor killings’ are indeed a part of islam and is alive and well, and the phenomenon has been brought stateside, and basically where muslims are located.
• it is disingenuous for muslim women here who are either in denial, practicing the deception that the koran sanctions, or for whatever reason to deny that ‘honor killings’, women are as property to men in islam, or that they are 1/2 that of a man - it is true and all it takes is a little bit of radicalization for this to be practiced since it is all in the koran. It might be that there are some who are looser in their intrepretation. And we see that it doesn’t take much for muslims to radicalize.
• This could go on forever with a muslim woman denying what happens worldwide and even in the USA - just search jihadwatch.org for articles on this subject.
• as for talking to muslim women - well, I have already said that I have talked to two sufi muslim women and they admit - freely - that only in the USA have they been allowed to divorce their husbands. ONLY IN THE USA… I would say this is temporary if the muslims get their way and islamicize the USA as they have stated many times that they plan on doing. I have read many articles on this subject and you can do searches for yourself on the same website I mentioned above, read ‘A Never ending War’, or others such as faithfreedom.org

Here is an example of one of the articles I searched on their stated goal of dominating the USA by 2050.

jihadwatch.org/archives/018733.php

 

[ralphinal]

oppression is a no no…and freedom is responsibility, otherwise it becomes a prison.

Know the Truth, it shall set you free

Amen

 

[ToddM]

Amen

Tempted to say that we need to make the distinction between freedom and liberty, liberty and license, but we all really know at least the absence of the first, the presence of the last, the hatred of the one as we wallow in the other.

You know, it still isn’t really about Islam, or women, or conservatives, or liberals…its about time to be about sin but hey, everyone needs a hobby right?

 

[R_not]

Tempted to say that we need to make the distinction between freedom and liberty, liberty and license, but we all really know at least the absence of the first, the presence of the last, the hatred of the one as we wallow in the other.

You know, it still isn’t really about Islam, or women, or conservatives, or liberals…its about time to be about sin but hey, everyone needs a hobby right?

When muslims mention ‘freedom’ it is ironic since sharia law, islam, etc is nothing about freedom.

Anyway - the thing about sin in islam. Shirk is sin - not what they do to women or infidels. In fact, all what they do to infidels and women is a-ok because it is sanctioned in the koran, as is deceiving us about what islam is all about.

 

[ToddM]

When muslims mention ‘freedom’ it is ironic since sharia law, islam, etc is nothing about freedom.

Anyway - the thing about sin in islam. Shirk is sin - not what they do to women or infidels. In fact, all what they do to infidels and women is a-ok because it is sanctioned in the koran, as is deceiving us about what islam is all about.

‘A rose by any other name…’

 

[Sister_Amy]

Women are, but are the men in the Muslim world doing the same?

Yes.

Actually, I would argue that the west has swung to far the other way. Women are “respected” in the west in some ways, but they also partake in a culture that demeans them without them understanding why. In the West, women want to be respected but some of them see that the culture is not respectful. It is permissive, but not respectful.

Women are not respected anymore in the West just for being women. They earn respect by accomplishment and achievement–think of the plight of poor, single mothers. The least respected.

But do they choose it because it is a better code of law or because they are commanded to? There is a difference.

Both. The code of law comes from Allah so of course it is better. A believing person understands that, even if he doesn’t understand the law. Most people who are actively practicing Islam made a choice at some point to become so–they made a conscious decision that Islam is the best way of life and also the way of life commanded by God so they willingly embrace it.

It amazes me how Islam can fix so many problems in a country EXCEPT for this one. Seriously, many nations are better off when the people embrace Islam, yet the status of women does not change.

Of course Islam fixed the problem. But the easiest divergence from Islam is in the matter of women. In fact the Prophet (s) in his farewell sermon (if I recall correctly) actually said that women will be a great trial for the men among the Muslims, and it makes sense why. Part of Islam is maintaining and protecting the rights of women, but that is one of the first places that a man inclines too much to this life instead of the next life, in the matters of women.

Again. it is a pendulum. SOme women in the west want the rules, some in Islamic lands want the freedom.

It isn’t a matter of rules, or freedom. Women in the West can cover if they want. Most women in the Muslim world can uncover if they want. For decades it was rare to see anyone except the elderly women covering. Is it freedom to be like a lion on a safari, where anyone can drive by and watch you? Men haven’t stopped treating women like property–it’s common knowledge that a woman’s appearance more than her credentials are often the reason for promotion and advancement in her career. So the women are being objectified… is that freedom? I scoff.

 

[AgnosTheist]

The west does not really allow for women to be 100% fulfilled. However, I do not see Islam as doing it either.

What is your idea of “100% fulfilled”?

I’m a guy and i’m sure my wife feels more fulfilled than I am. Because we are equal in everything except in career. She’s bigger on that issue.

 

[Sister_Amy]

It just seems strange to me that so many Muslims hold hard and fast to the Koran EXCEPT when women are involved.

Heh, some people could say just the opposite! It’s almost funny. Many Muslims have the opinion that women must “hold hard and fast” to the Qur’an, but men don’t have to. Now that is injustice, isn’t it? They say that a woman must fulfill her responsibilities as a wife, but they don’t say a word about her rights, the responsibilities of her husband! But in fact it’s a two-way street. Both parties have obligations, and both have rights. There are plenty of Muslim men, I’m sorry to say, who are quick to tell a woman she needs to follow Islam while they deviate to their own pleasure. It’s sick. Muhammad said that he came to perfect good character, and that the best Muslims are those with good character–and then he said that the best character is the ones who are best to their women. So being good to women is part of being a good Muslim.

So at what point can a women refuse sex? How often? Let’s say that a woman refuses her husband every day for a year. He can take another wife? He can divorce? Is he allowed to take what he wants?

Every couple is different, with different needs. There might be a couple for whom this is acceptable–I know it wouldn’t be for me. If my husband refused sex for a whole year, I would be well within my rights, as a wife, to be granted a divorce. And so would a husband be in his rights to get a divorce. Sex is part of the marriage, and both people need to be considerate of their partner. Sex is not allowed outside marriage, so if one spouse is denying it to the other, it opens the temptation of having an affair. Whether or not a man can take another wife depends on many other circumstances, like his ability to materially provide for another wife (which means another household) and children.

I encourage you to look at this from both sides–the husband and the wife are both supposed to be considerate. They are partners, and lovers, and in many cases that kind of behavior–refusal of intimacy–is detrimental to that bond, and simply isn’t fair to the other partner. The situation is the same whether the person refusing is the husband, or the wife.

AS I look at that Line, it is not like me. I ask your forgiveness for it. It is very out of character.

No problem.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Exactly. Women went from being housewives to being independant. That was fine. Once the birth control pill was made popular, women could be 100% in control, or so they were told. Almost overnight, women went from being wives and mothers to being “sexually liberated” and free to express themselves. At the same time, the average size of a “pin-up model” went from a size 12 to a size 2. Suddenly, women’s bodies were their enemies. Why? So they could show more of them. And yet, they were not happier.

So many women have a carrier and forgo children then they turn 30 or 40 and realize that they want children but cannot afford to give up the carrier.

The west does not really allow for women to be 100% fulfilled. However, I do not see Islam as doing it either.

You might be interested in a book called “Girls Gone Mild” by Wendy Shalit. The author is a Jewish lady who was disturbed by the lack of self-respect among young women, and the pressure on them to just act like men, and give up their modesty. The author isn’t Muslim but I share her sentiments on the issue entirely.

Now about self-fulfillment, every woman might be fulfilled by something different. In Islam a woman has the opportunity (indeed the right) to devote her time to raising children–as her husband is responsible for taking care of her materially, she can spend her time with the kids instead of working. Many women find that fulfilling. Some choose to work as well–and Muslim women are entitled that right as well provided that they make sure the children are taken care of in some way (day care, school, etc.,) which is pretty much common sense.

 

[AgnosTheist]

You might be interested in a book called “Girls Gone Mild” by Wendy Shalit. The author is a Jewish lady who was disturbed by the lack of self-respect among young women, and the pressure on them to just act like men, and give up their modesty. The author isn’t Muslim but I share her sentiments on the issue entirely.

Young people, they all lack self-respect regardless of gender. Self-respect is something that you learn as you grow up. Most of the mature women I know seem to have sufficient self-respect.

About Modesty, men are expected to screw up for as long as I can remember. Whenever a guy gets something from a female, its seen as a badge of honor among his male peers. It is true in Asia, and its true here in the west. Im sure its true in the middle east as well. ITS JUST THE WAY WE BOYS THINK!

 

[Sister_Amy]

I read a book by this “Mark Gabriel” person, read his story, and I know I’m not the only one to think it’s a complete fake. I have heard from people who actually did go to Al-Azhar (one of my imams did, for example) and insist it is nothing like what “Mark Gabriel” actually described. His supposed “PhD” is from what I’ve heard is only a degree factory, not an actual accredited university.

But I’ve noticed a great way to sell books these days is to be an apostate from Islam. So I have doubts that he is even a real person, and if he is, that he is actually telling the truth about his background.

He’s certainly not someone I would consider to be an authority on Islam.

Moreover, the so-called “experts” to which Todd referred are no doubt nothing of the sort. If people who have spent their lives studying Islam inside the Muslim tradition aren’t, then why are authors who spent only months, probably in English, working in the orientalist tradition, considered experts? I think you need to re-examine your criteria.

 

[AgnosTheist]

You might be interested in a book called “Girls Gone Mild” by Wendy Shalit. The author is a Jewish lady who was disturbed by the lack of self-respect among young women, and the pressure on them to just act like men, and give up their modesty. The author isn’t Muslim but I share her sentiments on the issue entirely.

Young people, they all lack self-respect regardless of gender. Self-respect is something that you learn as you grow up. Most of the mature women I know seem to have sufficient self-respect.

About Modesty, men are expected to screw up for as long as I can remember. Whenever a guy gets something from a female, its seen as a badge of honor among his male peers. It is true in Asia, and its true here in the west. Im sure its true in the middle east as well. ITS JUST THE WAY WE BOYS THINK!!!

 

[Sister_Amy]

Young people, they all lack self-respect regardless of gender. Self-respect is something that you learn as you grow up. Most of the mature women I know seem to have sufficient self-respect.

Leave to a man to say something stupid like this. By “young women” she was talking about people her age and under mostly, but inclusive of women even into their thirties. She didn’t include anyone older than that in her research that I know of, but by the time women are older they tend to stop being judged by their bodies. Hm!

About Modesty, men are expected to screw up for as long as I can remember. Whenever a guy gets something from a female, its seen as a badge of honor among his male peers. It is true in Asia, and its true here in the west. Im sure its true in the middle east as well. ITS JUST THE WAY WE BOYS THINK!

Boasting about stupidity, good for you. Do you want your daughter to be a “badge of honor” for some male? Most fathers don’t. In fact they typically try to shelter and shield their daughters from that kind of treatment from boys.

Women have dignity all their own–and you’ve just proven that NEITHER you, nor your peers, respect women, and that you perpetuate the abuse of women’s dignity. You should really be ashamed of yourself, for your opinions and behavior towards women are far worse than any Muslim’s who I know.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Boasting about stupidity, good for you. Do you want your daughter to be a “badge of honor” for some male?

Of course not! Thats why Im gonna raise her to be aware of how we think. To be streetsmart. To be like my wife. She was very smart when it comes to dating boys. She controlled the boys, not the other way around. She was a virgin when we got married.

Women have dignity all their own–and you’ve just proven that you, nor your peers, respect women, and that you perpetuate the abuse of women’s dignity. You should really be ashamed of yourself, for your opinions and behavior towards women are far worse than any Muslim’s who I know.

Your own religion permits 4 wives to share 1 man. One man getting all the sex while the females compete on who would get laid for the night. Talk about ‘female dignity’. The more wives a man gets, the more honor he has. That proves my point.

You are too immature to face the truth of how we men think. Thats how God made us, though we have varying levels of self control.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Of course not! Thats why Im gonna raise her to be aware of how we think. To be streetsmart. To be like my wife. She was very smart when it comes to dating boys. She controlled the boys, not the other way around. She was a virgin when we got married.

Oh ho ho! But the culture today does not value this publicly. You respect your daughter and demand she be respected, but what about everyone else’s daughter? Islam is a system to protect women’s dignity in this regard–as men today in this country fail to do.

Your own religion permits 4 wives to share 1 man. One man getting all the sex while the females compete on who would get laid for the night. Talk about ‘female dignity’. The more wives a man gets, the more honor he has. That proves my point.

One man getting all the sex? A man does not gain honor through his wives, nor through his children, nor through his wealth. This is pre-Islamic (jahiliyyah) thinking. It’s also the modern way of thought among non-Muslims like yourself! You think that the man has more honor by having more wives. It’s not the case–he simply has more responsibility, and takes the risk of even greater failure–ruining both marriages.

If you’re thinking like a slave of the world, then the more pleasure a person can obtain denotes success in this life. So you’re thinking that marrying more women is pleasure for the man only.

So you’re proving, all by yourself, that YOU do not respect women, the rights women have and the reasons that WOMAN might WILLINGLY accept a plural marriage. Admitting that a man (like you) would want more women to have more sex…

this is the problem with Western society, where women are robbed of their dignity–and seen only as sex objects.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Islam is a system to protect women’s dignity in this regard–as men today in this country fail to do.

And the result is Saudi Arabia & Afghanistan. No thank you.

Oh ho ho! But the culture today does not value this publicly. You respect your daughter and demand she be respected, but what about everyone else’s daughter?

Ive been living here in the west for over 10 years. I dont think its as bad as the media portrays it. Its not perfect, I know. But people learn and people survive. Count your blessings. Conditions here are at least far better than in most parts of the world, especially the middle east.

One man getting all the sex? A man does not gain honor through his wives

you are too naive. A man is honored by what he marries. Even the bible says that. Even us infidels, when we see muslim man legally married to many women (especially when good looking females), we tend to say “WOW, LUCKY HIM”. Honor is how high people look at you.

You think that the man has more honor by having more wives. It’s not the case–he simply has more responsibility, and takes the risk of even greater failure–ruining both marriages.

A man who can afford to have many wives or many mistresses, can also afford to be irresponsible to some of them. Thats reality, my dear.

So you’re proving, all by yourself, that YOU do not respect women

you wish. the people who actually know me know how much i respect everyone. my wife & daughter are both crazy about me. Like I said, men have varying levels of self-control. I just happen to have a lot of it. I’m just telling you how our mind works. Think about it.

 

[ToddM]

I read a book by this “Mark Gabriel” person, read his story, and I know I’m not the only one to think it’s a complete fake. I have heard from people who actually did go to Al-Azhar (one of my imams did, for example) and insist it is nothing like what “Mark Gabriel” actually described. His supposed “PhD” is from what I’ve heard is only a degree factory, not an actual accredited university.

But I’ve noticed a great way to sell books these days is to be an apostate from Islam. So I have doubts that he is even a real person, and if he is, that he is actually telling the truth about his background.

He’s certainly not someone I would consider to be an authority on Islam.

Moreover, the so-called “experts” to which Todd referred are no doubt nothing of the sort. If people who have spent their lives studying Islam inside the Muslim tradition aren’t, then why are authors who spent only months, probably in English, working in the orientalist tradition, considered experts? I think you need to re-examine your criteria.

one…last…time. You use what you have, including sources. I should consider your and your associates credibility as well, no?

1. AGAIN. Who are, and where are the Islamic authorities who one CAN listen to? Thank you for trying to correct me I guess. This is what I have been asking for again, and again, and again.

But, please, don’t ‘refute’ one soft source with ‘i heards’ and ‘my friends’

Where are and who are your authorities? Who speaks for Islam and why?

Does anyone understand what I am saying here?

What you say about Mark Gabriel could be said about you as well.

Who can it not be said about?

Who can and will effectively defend your faith?

How many ways can I say this?

If you have better sources, then please share them, if not then it is not just to question the few at least semi-rational ones that I can find.

Hey, how do you know who my crazy sources are anyway? How do you know they aren’t the authorities?

Please, if you are going to take jabs, the don’t be sly, step up and
punch. The oblique condescension doesn’t give weight to your case.